Hi Joey, This really is piss-ant money we are talking about from a betting standpoint from me.
I know you like Tony but he came across as nothing but an arrogant arsehole as far as I'm concerned.
Botha fight OFFICIALLY a draw!
- Thread starter Fightwriter
- Start date
I know you like Tony but he came across as nothing but an arrogant arsehole as far as I'm concerned.
- Aug 28, 2005
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Sorry to hear that Weepaul.
5dimes was fair to me too, just like to Oddessa. I try not to argue with books, because at times decision will go in your favor sometimes against so it all evens out in the long run - in my experience.
5dimes was fair to me too, just like to Oddessa. I try not to argue with books, because at times decision will go in your favor sometimes against so it all evens out in the long run - in my experience.
- Nov 14, 2008
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This is my conversation-
Rebecca: Hello. How may I assist you today?
Paul: I want to talk to a manager
Rebecca: sure, what is this in regards to?
Paul: A boxing bet
Rebecca: hold on a moment please
You are now chatting with 'Ernest'
Ernest: Hello. How may I assist you today?
Paul: 38205672-1
Paul: this is the bet I had on the weekend
Paul: It was graded a loss and then changed to cancell as the fight was a draw
Paul: You have now changed it to a loss again
Ernest: that is correct, sir
Paul: The fight was a DRAW
Ernest: ok, let me consult that with the wagering department
Ernest: the result announced in the ring is the official result for wagering porpuses
Ernest: according to our rules: Results will be graded/regraded based on the official result at ringside. A result may be revised or altered after initial presentation by the ring announcer. Results are not official for wagering purposes until verified by officials at the fighting venue. Official or unofficial sanctioning body overturns of a fight decision based on appeal, suspension, lawsuit, drug testing result, or any other fighter sanction will not be recognized for wagering purposes.
Paul: the correct verdict WAS read in the ring but the referee raised Botha's hand - which led to huge confusion the announcer announced that BOTHA RETAINED the tile - not that he won the fight, this should be a refund - not a loss
Ernest: the grading is correct, according to our wagering department and General Manager, sir
Paul: The grading IS wrong!!!
Ernest: sir, the draw was announced the next day
Paul: I went on all the boxing message boards last night to talk about what a great job you guys did and how fair you were and now you are pulling this!!!
Paul: The DRAW was announced in the ring
Ernest: well, sir, the result is correct and the draw was announced the next day, according to our General Manager
Ernest: you can chat with him if you'd like, but there's nothing I can do to change the grading of the wager
Paul: Well your General Manager is WRONG.Does he speak German. Was he watching the fight????
Paul: Put him on
Ernest: Just a moment please
You are now chatting with 'Tony'
Tony: greetings
Paul: Hello
Paul: I must say, I am disgusted with how you are treating this fight.I gave 5 DIMES MAD PROPS ON ALL THE BOXING FORUMS FOR DOING THE RIGHT THING AND NOW YOU DO THIS
Tony: majority decision in the ring
Tony: later changed
Tony: my grade stands
Paul: It was announced as a DRAW
Paul: the correct verdict WAS read in the ring but the referee raised Botha's hand - which led to huge confusion the announcer announced that BOTHA RETAINED the tile - not that he won the fight this should be a refund - not a loss
Tony: well, if it was a draw, then it would have been stated as such in the initial reports from the ring
Tony: and it was not
Tony: as for the prior change in the grade by my staff, it was done without consulting me
Tony: and was corrected immediately
Paul: When a fight takes place in German these things can happen but the fight was announced as a DRAW
Tony: you have my decision
Paul: Do you speak German, did you watch the fight
Tony: no i do not
Tony: and no i didn't watch the fight
Tony: but i feel the grade is correct
Tony: and i'm sticking with it
Paul: Who is your boss and can I have their e-mail
Tony: someone is going to be unhappy, but that is the way it goes
Tony: i am the owner
Tony: so you don't need to e-mail anyone
Paul: this is a point of principle with me as you have alway's been the best book and now you act like you don't give a shit
Tony: we're still the best book
Tony: and i made a decision
Paul: Bullshit
Tony: and if you don't like my decision, then that is your issue
Tony: so you can continue to curse and cry, but the decision isn't chaning
Tony: changing
Tony: the event in my opinion is graded correctly
Paul: No, it's a lot of peoples issue and I will make sure to spread the word.
Tony: if you think otherwise, that is your opinion, and you are entitled to it, but its not changing my grade of the event
Tony: i tell you what
Tony: we'll make this easier on you
Paul: Odessa alway's said you were fair but I don't see it
Tony: whether you choose to keep your account open is now out of your hands
Tony: that will give you all the more motivation to "spread the word"
Tony: and i spoke with oddessa
Tony: and he agrees with my decision
Tony: you since you know him so well, you can ask him yourself
Tony: but since you're so hell bent on "spreading your gospel"
Tony: you're gone
Paul: Oh Well,
Paul: Make sure you send me my money!!!
Tony: oh yes
Tony: i'm even adding in the difference on the grade
Tony: its worth it to be rid of a crybaby
Paul: Im not a crybaby but fair is fair and I alway's recommended you guys every chance I got
Tony: well, now you can not bother
Tony: as you'll have no basis to speak of since you'll no longer have an account
Tony: how would you like your account closing payout?
Paul: You are a great people person CONGRATS
Tony: i'm the biggest asshole i know
Tony: you make threats, i make promises
Tony: and you're gone
Tony: i'm all charm
Paul: What threats
Tony: "and I will make sure to spread the word."
Tony: then you go spread the word
Tony: nothing to stop you now
Tony: now how do you want that account closing payout?
Paul: You mean having to recant what I originally said about how good you are, AFTER you change a grade
Tony: grade was correct to start
Paul: Wrong
Tony: changed by a clerk that shouldn't have
touched anything
Tony: and then immediately changed back to the original grade
Tony: but that doesn't matter for you
Paul: Knowing you, they were fired on the spot huh
Tony: because you got your way with the grade
Tony: almost
Tony: but you got your grade corrected
Tony: and i got what i wanted, which was one less crybaby
Tony: so how do you want your account closing payout?
Tony: i have 2 min left before I have to leave for a meeting
Tony: so you've got that amount of time to let me know
Paul: Easyweb
Tony: inform a customer service manager with all the details, it will be handled today
- Nov 14, 2008
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Sorry Wee, but I had to laugh at the chat...
..when you said Bullshit... I woulda layed 1000-1 you were tossed....you we're drawing dead.. but I think he had you at Hello..
You have to admire his integrity given you the refund though. Can't make a case against him for it being about the money.
I know him pretty good and he doesnt tolerate swearing and stuff. He runs a pretty tight ship.
Guess only fault now is on Germany.
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There was no fault with Germany. He raised Botha's hand as the belt retainer, but the fight was still announced properly as a draw.
Fuck 5dimes.
Sorry Paul. I read the whole convo. Good for you for not punking out.
Fuck 5dimes.
Sorry Paul. I read the whole convo. Good for you for not punking out.
:mj07: The Jerry Maguire comment is pretty funny.
I didn't think "Bullshit" was a bad word and I had a lot Fucking worse on my mind :142smilie
It was all in the "I think I am God and my shit don't stink" attitude.
I am Fucking you over and have no interest in finding out what really happened BUT my book is still the best!! :mj07:
I have been with this book for more than 12 years. I have told them at times when they had a line up AFTER a fight, I have recommended them to every gambler I know, I have defended them when others slagged them.
It is not about the money for me either.
It is about the head of 5 Dimes acting like a Spunk stain on the boxer shorts of life.
He doesn't know all the facts, has no interest in looking in to things. He has made his illiterate decision and all his customers can go Fuck themselves.
I'm pretty sure before he was established, he gave a shit about customers.
As Crazyhorse said so eloquently "Fuck 5 Dimes".
Thanks to Crazyhorse and the rest of the madjack crew for the kind words.
Hit me up with some other reputable Sportsbooks.
Joey, feel free to pass on the jist of this message to Tony. I'm sure his superior intellect will get a kick out of what one of the "Little People" thinks.
:toast: :toast: :toast:
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- Jun 23, 2008
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Oh snap !
:scared
So Sorry Paul...damn....
1. 5dimes, in my opinion, is the best book around. They have been very fair to me in the past.
2. I believe STRONGLY that, this time, they are wrong.
3. On November 17 2008, the EXACT same thing happened and 5dimes final decision was a DRAW. It was the Hlatswayo fight in South Africa. Isaac was announced the winner in the ring - decision was changed within 24 hours to a DRAW. Hlatswayo winning wagers were changed to CANCELED.
:shrug:
The worst part of this whole scenario is Carrion whooped Botha's ass !!!!! It wasn't even a close fight !
What can you do.....rough business......
:scared
So Sorry Paul...damn....
1. 5dimes, in my opinion, is the best book around. They have been very fair to me in the past.
2. I believe STRONGLY that, this time, they are wrong.
3. On November 17 2008, the EXACT same thing happened and 5dimes final decision was a DRAW. It was the Hlatswayo fight in South Africa. Isaac was announced the winner in the ring - decision was changed within 24 hours to a DRAW. Hlatswayo winning wagers were changed to CANCELED.
:shrug:
The worst part of this whole scenario is Carrion whooped Botha's ass !!!!! It wasn't even a close fight !
What can you do.....rough business......
Botha-Carrion continued
Botha-Carrion continued
I've been doing a bit of research on this fight and I plan to post an article in the next hour, for anyone interested.
I can understand Paul's frustration, and I can see how tempers could easily get frayed in any conversations over wager grading.
Maybe after a cooling-off period Paul and Tony could bury the hatchet? We all know that 5 Dimes is a great book, and we are talking about what was an incredibly confusing situation over in Germany, probably more confusing than any fight in recent memory.
Botha-Carrion continued
Oh snap !
:scared
So Sorry Paul...damn....
1. 5dimes, in my opinion, is the best book around. They have been very fair to me in the past.
2. I believe STRONGLY that, this time, they are wrong.
3. On November 17 2008, the EXACT same thing happened and 5dimes final decision was a DRAW. It was the Hlatswayo fight in South Africa. Isaac was announced the winner in the ring - decision was changed within 24 hours to a DRAW. Hlatswayo winning wagers were changed to CANCELED.
:shrug:
The worst part of this whole scenario is Carrion whooped Botha's ass !!!!! It wasn't even a close fight !
What can you do.....rough business......
I've been doing a bit of research on this fight and I plan to post an article in the next hour, for anyone interested.
I can understand Paul's frustration, and I can see how tempers could easily get frayed in any conversations over wager grading.
Maybe after a cooling-off period Paul and Tony could bury the hatchet? We all know that 5 Dimes is a great book, and we are talking about what was an incredibly confusing situation over in Germany, probably more confusing than any fight in recent memory.
Actually you are partially correct.
The bout was significant to me that monday b/c I know his trainer Lou F. from NY.
I dug up my original emails from that night. Word was out they mis calculated the cards within 30 mins of me sending what I thought was the correct grading result. So REFUND was the correct position there. Same thing with MAB vs Juarez. MAB was the right winner there despite Don best and others sleeping on the fact it had been overturned at the venue. The MAB bout is why the rules were amended to have it written in stone.
Weepaul has always been good guy with me. I've chatted with him a good bit in past and not taking sides, just voicing my opinion and pointing out the Isaac result was not any kind of example to use.
I imagine if anyone sends him a video link, of what you German speaking guys claim to have known in the ring before the rest of the non German speaking world the next day..... that they would refund your bets. But by the rules listed, the grade should have been Botha by Decision.
I can't argue with it being graded as Botha as winner for same reason I cant argue getting stiffed for 5 figures from a book years ago bc they had same rule as an advertiser here:
The bout was significant to me that monday b/c I know his trainer Lou F. from NY.
I dug up my original emails from that night. Word was out they mis calculated the cards within 30 mins of me sending what I thought was the correct grading result. So REFUND was the correct position there. Same thing with MAB vs Juarez. MAB was the right winner there despite Don best and others sleeping on the fact it had been overturned at the venue. The MAB bout is why the rules were amended to have it written in stone.
Weepaul has always been good guy with me. I've chatted with him a good bit in past and not taking sides, just voicing my opinion and pointing out the Isaac result was not any kind of example to use.
I imagine if anyone sends him a video link, of what you German speaking guys claim to have known in the ring before the rest of the non German speaking world the next day..... that they would refund your bets. But by the rules listed, the grade should have been Botha by Decision.
I can't argue with it being graded as Botha as winner for same reason I cant argue getting stiffed for 5 figures from a book years ago bc they had same rule as an advertiser here:
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Imagine how tough it was to plead my case with book owner over the above 'wiseguy' rule after I mopped the floor with them on a particular UFC card in early 2000's..
Bilingual announcement
Bilingual announcement
Joey, I wasn't able to record the fight but maybe someone will post a video on YouTube. I looked at my notes and I wrote down the exact same scores as appear on BoxRec. A German website also is reporting that the MC (ring announcer) DID announce the scores as a draw. I can understand both Tony's and Paul's position; this was a mess and the sort of thing that can stir emotions in a discussion/argument.
Bilingual announcement
Joey, I wasn't able to record the fight but maybe someone will post a video on YouTube. I looked at my notes and I wrote down the exact same scores as appear on BoxRec. A German website also is reporting that the MC (ring announcer) DID announce the scores as a draw. I can understand both Tony's and Paul's position; this was a mess and the sort of thing that can stir emotions in a discussion/argument.
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I just spoke with Tony about this bout and "precedent". And how this will NOT be happening again.
He is going to grade the Botha wins as a WIN. He is going to refund ALL the wagers on the underdog Carrion. A push/lose for him....so it isnt ever about money as so many people naively think.
Now this speaks volumes on his integrity and also on his tolerance to hostilty.
He and I are in agreement that if anything remotely similar happens in future, our grade will stand unless we are sent the video of the fight with undisputed proof.
Sugar gets you more than Vinegar 100% of the time.
Have a good night guys.
He is going to grade the Botha wins as a WIN. He is going to refund ALL the wagers on the underdog Carrion. A push/lose for him....so it isnt ever about money as so many people naively think.
Now this speaks volumes on his integrity and also on his tolerance to hostilty.
He and I are in agreement that if anything remotely similar happens in future, our grade will stand unless we are sent the video of the fight with undisputed proof.
Sugar gets you more than Vinegar 100% of the time.
Have a good night guys.
joey..before you go..was paul mentioned?...is he still l persona non grata at 5 dimes?....maybe tony can understand why paul was so upset and cut him a lttle slack for being a little lippy...
would be a magnificent gesture...
GW- I would be way out of line to speak for his bizness decision on booting a player. That's all btwn him and Wee.
Just passing along the info we discussed on this particular bout and how it relates to the fight wagering game in the future.
Just passing along the info we discussed on this particular bout and how it relates to the fight wagering game in the future.