muslim family of 4 murdered in new jersey....
- Thread starter gardenweasel
- Start date
January 19, 2005
Extremist cleric staged al-Qaeda recruiting rally
By Sean O?Neill and Richard Ford
THE radical Islamist cleric whose internet sermons are being investigated by police has held a secret conference at which British Muslims were urged to join al-Qaeda.
About 600 people, including women and children, punched the air and chanted Allahu akbar (God is greatest) as they were shown videos of hijacked airliners crashing into the World Trade Centre in New York on September 11, 2001. Omar Bakri Mohammed, the radical Syrian-born cleric, said that if the British Government did not relax its tough anti- terrorism laws, the response from Muslims would be ?horrendous?. He added: ?I declare we should ourselves join the global Islamic camp against the global crusade camp.?
The event was held this month at The Friends Meeting House in Central London, the British headquarters of the Quaker movement. Mr Bakri Mohammed?s followers booked the hall for a health conference entitled Women?s Dawah UK and the Quakers were unaware that it was a political gathering.
Two reporters from United Press International, a United States-based news agency, attended and reported a series of inflammatory speeches by Mr Bakri Mohammed and his cohorts. One speaker said that Western governments would face ?a 9/11 day after day after day?.
As the crowd chanted, the man shouted: ?Whether they be stones, whether they be sticks, whether they be knives, whether they be bombs, whatever they may be, prepare as much as you can.?
With the language of Mr Bakri Mohammed and his followers becoming more extreme, pressure is mounting on ministers and the police to act against him. Charles Clarke, the Home Secretary, told The Times that he has asked his officials for a report on Mr Bakri Mohammed?s latest activities.
The Muslim cleric came to Britain in 1986 after being expelled from Saudi Arabia and was granted indefinite leave to remain here. Mr Clarke said that the Home Office would help him to leave Britain, as some reports have suggested he wishes. ?I have asked my officials that they explore the truth or otherwise that he wishes to return to Syria or Lebanon, and after that exploration we will do all in our power to assist him to return.?
Scotland Yard?s anti-terrorist branch, which is studying his internet speeches for evidence of incitement offences, has held informal discussions with the Crown Prosecution Service.
Mr Bakri Mohammed, 47, attempted to deny his comments and challenged The Times to produce evidence that he had told his internet listeners to join al-Qaeda and follow Osama bin Laden. He said: ?These words were not just taken out of context, they were totally fabricated. It is complete fabrications and lies.?
In response, an extract from our recordings of one of Mr Bakri Mohammed?s sermons last week has been made available on timesonline. On it the cleric can be heard describing al-Qaeda as the ?victorious group?, which Muslims are ?obliged? to join.
A spokeswoman for the Quakers said that they were ?hugely distressed? that they had been duped into hosting the conference. She said: ?The Quakers are known for our commitment to non-violence and this was absolutely against everything we stand for.?
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/printFriendly/0,,1-4646-1447176,00.html
Extremist cleric staged al-Qaeda recruiting rally
By Sean O?Neill and Richard Ford
THE radical Islamist cleric whose internet sermons are being investigated by police has held a secret conference at which British Muslims were urged to join al-Qaeda.
About 600 people, including women and children, punched the air and chanted Allahu akbar (God is greatest) as they were shown videos of hijacked airliners crashing into the World Trade Centre in New York on September 11, 2001. Omar Bakri Mohammed, the radical Syrian-born cleric, said that if the British Government did not relax its tough anti- terrorism laws, the response from Muslims would be ?horrendous?. He added: ?I declare we should ourselves join the global Islamic camp against the global crusade camp.?
The event was held this month at The Friends Meeting House in Central London, the British headquarters of the Quaker movement. Mr Bakri Mohammed?s followers booked the hall for a health conference entitled Women?s Dawah UK and the Quakers were unaware that it was a political gathering.
Two reporters from United Press International, a United States-based news agency, attended and reported a series of inflammatory speeches by Mr Bakri Mohammed and his cohorts. One speaker said that Western governments would face ?a 9/11 day after day after day?.
As the crowd chanted, the man shouted: ?Whether they be stones, whether they be sticks, whether they be knives, whether they be bombs, whatever they may be, prepare as much as you can.?
With the language of Mr Bakri Mohammed and his followers becoming more extreme, pressure is mounting on ministers and the police to act against him. Charles Clarke, the Home Secretary, told The Times that he has asked his officials for a report on Mr Bakri Mohammed?s latest activities.
The Muslim cleric came to Britain in 1986 after being expelled from Saudi Arabia and was granted indefinite leave to remain here. Mr Clarke said that the Home Office would help him to leave Britain, as some reports have suggested he wishes. ?I have asked my officials that they explore the truth or otherwise that he wishes to return to Syria or Lebanon, and after that exploration we will do all in our power to assist him to return.?
Scotland Yard?s anti-terrorist branch, which is studying his internet speeches for evidence of incitement offences, has held informal discussions with the Crown Prosecution Service.
Mr Bakri Mohammed, 47, attempted to deny his comments and challenged The Times to produce evidence that he had told his internet listeners to join al-Qaeda and follow Osama bin Laden. He said: ?These words were not just taken out of context, they were totally fabricated. It is complete fabrications and lies.?
In response, an extract from our recordings of one of Mr Bakri Mohammed?s sermons last week has been made available on timesonline. On it the cleric can be heard describing al-Qaeda as the ?victorious group?, which Muslims are ?obliged? to join.
A spokeswoman for the Quakers said that they were ?hugely distressed? that they had been duped into hosting the conference. She said: ?The Quakers are known for our commitment to non-violence and this was absolutely against everything we stand for.?
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/printFriendly/0,,1-4646-1447176,00.html
Al-Qaida-linked group seeks recruits in Indonesia
January 19, 2005
BY BRIAN MURPHY Advertisement
BANDA ACEH, Indonesia -- An Islamic group with suspected links to al-Qaida is on a dual mission across this devastated corner of Indonesia: collecting the dead and seeking new followers among the survivors.
The two-tier outreach of the Majelis Mujaheddin Indonesia, or Indonesia Holy Warrior Assembly, is an example of how the relief response to the tsunami tragedy can serve as an opportunity to widen support in a country under international pressure to closely watch radical Islamic activities.
As the region slowly claws back from epic destruction, the Mujaheddin has also started to blur the lines between offering assistance and polishing its image. Collecting bodies is a pressing service here, as thousands of corpses rot in the tropical heat.
''It would be a lie to say that we are not trying to win over people's hearts to our side,'' said Jamal Aldin, a volunteer from Jakarta who led one of the body-collection brigades Tuesday. ''The survivors will see the work we are doing and maybe they will follow us.''
The group has distributed Qurans and information about its views on correct Islamic principles, such as head scarves and avoidance of Western culture.
Another radical group, the Islamic Defenders Front, has set up a camp for survivors in a cemetery in Banda Aceh, the provincial capital. But its agenda is mostly confined to opposing perceived un-Islamic activities such as bars and nightclubs. The Mujaheddin's background is considered more worrisome.
The group takes its cues from Abu Bakar Bashir, the cleric now on trial as the alleged leader of Jemaah Islamiyah, the al-Qaida-linked terror cell accused in the 2002 Bali nightclub bombings that killed 202 people and the 2003 attack on the J.W. Marriott hotel in Jakarta that claimed 12 lives.
http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst-nws-tside19.html
January 19, 2005
BY BRIAN MURPHY Advertisement
BANDA ACEH, Indonesia -- An Islamic group with suspected links to al-Qaida is on a dual mission across this devastated corner of Indonesia: collecting the dead and seeking new followers among the survivors.
The two-tier outreach of the Majelis Mujaheddin Indonesia, or Indonesia Holy Warrior Assembly, is an example of how the relief response to the tsunami tragedy can serve as an opportunity to widen support in a country under international pressure to closely watch radical Islamic activities.
As the region slowly claws back from epic destruction, the Mujaheddin has also started to blur the lines between offering assistance and polishing its image. Collecting bodies is a pressing service here, as thousands of corpses rot in the tropical heat.
''It would be a lie to say that we are not trying to win over people's hearts to our side,'' said Jamal Aldin, a volunteer from Jakarta who led one of the body-collection brigades Tuesday. ''The survivors will see the work we are doing and maybe they will follow us.''
The group has distributed Qurans and information about its views on correct Islamic principles, such as head scarves and avoidance of Western culture.
Another radical group, the Islamic Defenders Front, has set up a camp for survivors in a cemetery in Banda Aceh, the provincial capital. But its agenda is mostly confined to opposing perceived un-Islamic activities such as bars and nightclubs. The Mujaheddin's background is considered more worrisome.
The group takes its cues from Abu Bakar Bashir, the cleric now on trial as the alleged leader of Jemaah Islamiyah, the al-Qaida-linked terror cell accused in the 2002 Bali nightclub bombings that killed 202 people and the 2003 attack on the J.W. Marriott hotel in Jakarta that claimed 12 lives.
http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst-nws-tside19.html
January 18, 2005
Islamicists hate us for who we are, not what we do
by Victor Davis Hanson
Chicago Tribune Co.
As the third recent Middle East election nears in Iraq, Americans are still puzzled over why well-off Islamic fundamentalists crashed planes into skyscrapers and now send mercenaries to the Sunni Triangle to slaughter us as we sponsor democracy. Yet since Sept. 11, we have grasped that Muslim fascists understood that the course of American-led world history ? democracy and globalized capitalism ? was leaving them behind. Thus they strike the United States before they are made irrelevant.
America symbolized the onset of a hated modernism and its breakdown of religious, gender and ethnic hierarchies that were so treasured by Islamicist patriarchs. As this war wore on, we also fathomed the pathological partnerships of tyrannies in Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia and Syria with al-Qaida and other terrorist cadres. Both groups scapegoated the superpower United States for their own failures. In addition, killers in bin Laden's mafia and other terrorist planners from Iran to the West Bank turned out not to be the impoverished, but more often the pampered of the middle class ? like the Saudi suicide zealot who just blew up Americans in Mosul.
Yet in the gloom over postwar Iraq, ex-CIA agents and moody public intellectuals have recently doubted this "They hate us for who we are" explanation. Instead, they have reintroduced the notion of "They hate us for what we do" ? as if there are legitimate grievances that logically earn such violent attacks organized by petro-heirs, doctors and crackpot mullahs. Even a toned-down bin Laden is quoted as witness. He recently joked that al-Qaida is going after America, not liberal Sweden: had we just shrunk to the stature of the politically correct Scandinavians, then our problems would vanish.
But would they?
Not at all. First, the Islamofascists of the Middle East, like all autocrats, cannot be believed since they neither allow criticism nor tolerate self-reflection. Lying is their bible. Did poor Tojo and Hitler really have cause to gobble up their neighbors? Was Stalin's postwar Soviet Union that overran Eastern Europe unfairly stigmatized because of purported anti-communist frenzy? Of course not.
Second, alleged sins against Islam transform monthly. Americans have been murdered with near impunity all over the Middle East for a near quarter-century on a variety of pretexts. Sometimes fatwas and infomercials cited the "loss" of Jerusalem. Then there were the U.S. troops in the Land of the Holy Shrines or the U.N. embargo of Iraq ? such gripes still persisting long after withdrawal of American soldiers from Saudi Arabia and massive aid to, not boycotts of, Iraq. Do not forget hurt over the expulsion of the Moors from Spain or the Crusades ? as if the Islamicists alone can nurse centuries-old wounds. What unites this tired victimization is never logic, but always a preexisting antipathy toward Western liberalism, tempting and repelling the fundamentalists all at once.
Third, bin Laden and various mujahideen distort history. American beneficence ? saving Kuwaitis, protecting Bosnians, feeding Somalis, or billions in aid for Egyptians ? means nothing, while Islamic internecine murder is excused. The unspoken truth is that the killers of the Middle East have mostly been other Middle-Eastern Muslims: the Kurdish holocaust, millions butchered in the Iranian-Iraqi war, Iraq's rape of Kuwait, Syrian obliteration of Hama, Algerian massacres or the genocide in the Sudan. Land, oil, religion or ethnic hatred ? not America ? prompted such slaughter.
Fourth, terrorists still imperil liberal Europe that subsidized Hamas, armed Saddam and chastised America for its pro-Israel policy. After Spain fled from Iraq, it was rewarded with further terrorist threats. France is under intimidation for scarves, Holland for films and England still for Salman Rushdie.
Fifth, al-Qaida's hatred is opportunistically selective. The United States is slurred with allegations of petrol imperialism. But why no charges against a cutthroat nuclear China that is hungrier for Arab oil than is America and digested Tibet? Israel purportedly occupies Palestinian land, but Syria gobbled up Lebanon to the silence of the Arab League. We earn loathing for billions given to Israel, but why not gratitude for matching that amount to Egypt and Jordan?
It is humane to send massive aid to Southeast Asia after the tsunami. Yet the idea that the fundamentalist Muslim world in recompense will temper its hatred of the United States because we give far more than Saudi Arabia or China is sadly mistaken. If Israel were to disappear, or America were to give the Middle East $100 billion, the deductive hatred from radical Islam would persist.
The United States has adopted a rational strategy against Islamic fascism: kill the terrorists, remove illegitimate regimes that aid the extremists, foster democracies in their places and alter American policy from tolerance of the corrupt status quo to calls for reform. Yet we cannot finish the Islamicists' war unless we understand why they started it. For that answer, look at who Americans are and what we represent ? not at what we supposedly have done.
?2004 Victor Davis Hanson
http://victorhanson.com/articles/hanson011805.html
Islamicists hate us for who we are, not what we do
by Victor Davis Hanson
Chicago Tribune Co.
As the third recent Middle East election nears in Iraq, Americans are still puzzled over why well-off Islamic fundamentalists crashed planes into skyscrapers and now send mercenaries to the Sunni Triangle to slaughter us as we sponsor democracy. Yet since Sept. 11, we have grasped that Muslim fascists understood that the course of American-led world history ? democracy and globalized capitalism ? was leaving them behind. Thus they strike the United States before they are made irrelevant.
America symbolized the onset of a hated modernism and its breakdown of religious, gender and ethnic hierarchies that were so treasured by Islamicist patriarchs. As this war wore on, we also fathomed the pathological partnerships of tyrannies in Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia and Syria with al-Qaida and other terrorist cadres. Both groups scapegoated the superpower United States for their own failures. In addition, killers in bin Laden's mafia and other terrorist planners from Iran to the West Bank turned out not to be the impoverished, but more often the pampered of the middle class ? like the Saudi suicide zealot who just blew up Americans in Mosul.
Yet in the gloom over postwar Iraq, ex-CIA agents and moody public intellectuals have recently doubted this "They hate us for who we are" explanation. Instead, they have reintroduced the notion of "They hate us for what we do" ? as if there are legitimate grievances that logically earn such violent attacks organized by petro-heirs, doctors and crackpot mullahs. Even a toned-down bin Laden is quoted as witness. He recently joked that al-Qaida is going after America, not liberal Sweden: had we just shrunk to the stature of the politically correct Scandinavians, then our problems would vanish.
But would they?
Not at all. First, the Islamofascists of the Middle East, like all autocrats, cannot be believed since they neither allow criticism nor tolerate self-reflection. Lying is their bible. Did poor Tojo and Hitler really have cause to gobble up their neighbors? Was Stalin's postwar Soviet Union that overran Eastern Europe unfairly stigmatized because of purported anti-communist frenzy? Of course not.
Second, alleged sins against Islam transform monthly. Americans have been murdered with near impunity all over the Middle East for a near quarter-century on a variety of pretexts. Sometimes fatwas and infomercials cited the "loss" of Jerusalem. Then there were the U.S. troops in the Land of the Holy Shrines or the U.N. embargo of Iraq ? such gripes still persisting long after withdrawal of American soldiers from Saudi Arabia and massive aid to, not boycotts of, Iraq. Do not forget hurt over the expulsion of the Moors from Spain or the Crusades ? as if the Islamicists alone can nurse centuries-old wounds. What unites this tired victimization is never logic, but always a preexisting antipathy toward Western liberalism, tempting and repelling the fundamentalists all at once.
Third, bin Laden and various mujahideen distort history. American beneficence ? saving Kuwaitis, protecting Bosnians, feeding Somalis, or billions in aid for Egyptians ? means nothing, while Islamic internecine murder is excused. The unspoken truth is that the killers of the Middle East have mostly been other Middle-Eastern Muslims: the Kurdish holocaust, millions butchered in the Iranian-Iraqi war, Iraq's rape of Kuwait, Syrian obliteration of Hama, Algerian massacres or the genocide in the Sudan. Land, oil, religion or ethnic hatred ? not America ? prompted such slaughter.
Fourth, terrorists still imperil liberal Europe that subsidized Hamas, armed Saddam and chastised America for its pro-Israel policy. After Spain fled from Iraq, it was rewarded with further terrorist threats. France is under intimidation for scarves, Holland for films and England still for Salman Rushdie.
Fifth, al-Qaida's hatred is opportunistically selective. The United States is slurred with allegations of petrol imperialism. But why no charges against a cutthroat nuclear China that is hungrier for Arab oil than is America and digested Tibet? Israel purportedly occupies Palestinian land, but Syria gobbled up Lebanon to the silence of the Arab League. We earn loathing for billions given to Israel, but why not gratitude for matching that amount to Egypt and Jordan?
It is humane to send massive aid to Southeast Asia after the tsunami. Yet the idea that the fundamentalist Muslim world in recompense will temper its hatred of the United States because we give far more than Saudi Arabia or China is sadly mistaken. If Israel were to disappear, or America were to give the Middle East $100 billion, the deductive hatred from radical Islam would persist.
The United States has adopted a rational strategy against Islamic fascism: kill the terrorists, remove illegitimate regimes that aid the extremists, foster democracies in their places and alter American policy from tolerance of the corrupt status quo to calls for reform. Yet we cannot finish the Islamicists' war unless we understand why they started it. For that answer, look at who Americans are and what we represent ? not at what we supposedly have done.
?2004 Victor Davis Hanson
http://victorhanson.com/articles/hanson011805.html
Moif, Gardenweasel enters an interesting but unfortunate thread regarding the assassination of a family. It starts out as a give and take and degenerates into a political rant. It's very basic.
Jersey City, New Jersey is a prominent peaceful but active Muslim community the way any other community be Jewish- Catholic or whatever. It also claims Private and State schools, heavy Labor Union etc. They were just as likely to have been killed by an American fanatic as an Al Qeda group or a 7/11 owner
Jersey City, New Jersey is a prominent peaceful but active Muslim community the way any other community be Jewish- Catholic or whatever. It also claims Private and State schools, heavy Labor Union etc. They were just as likely to have been killed by an American fanatic as an Al Qeda group or a 7/11 owner
Was this family Americans? If so call them that. If not well call them what ever, maybe visitors.
danmurphy jr said:
You're alright Murph, Omar, whatever. It's just the rest of the world is f*cked up.
smurph....we have no alternative...
try and think about the logistical morass of converting the world to some alternative energy source...
would the alternative be capable of being adapted for transportation, heating, and the production of pesticides, plastics, and petrochemicals?
does the alternative have an energy profit ratio (EPR) comparable to oil?
cheap (high-EPR) energy has formed the basis upon which all of our economic, political, and social institutions and relationships have formed............ live in the suburbs and commute to work?............. you can only do so as long as we have cheap energy to fuel long-distance transportation......eat food shipped in from all around the world? ......can’t do it without cheap fossil-fuel powered transportation networks....
to what degree does the distribution, implementation, and use of this alternative require massive retrofiting of our industrial infrastructure?.......how much money, energy, and time will this retrofitting require?.....
wwe have an energy infrastructure which is incredibly mammoth and intricate....it is inextricably intertwined with economic, political, and social systems equally mammoth, inticate, and volatile.........
i agree...we need to do something....at what cost?.....and what is the alternative?
the expense,time and scope of such an undertaking is mindboggling....
and that`s if we had a definitive solution.....
i wish we did...i agree...
try and think about the logistical morass of converting the world to some alternative energy source...
would the alternative be capable of being adapted for transportation, heating, and the production of pesticides, plastics, and petrochemicals?
does the alternative have an energy profit ratio (EPR) comparable to oil?
cheap (high-EPR) energy has formed the basis upon which all of our economic, political, and social institutions and relationships have formed............ live in the suburbs and commute to work?............. you can only do so as long as we have cheap energy to fuel long-distance transportation......eat food shipped in from all around the world? ......can’t do it without cheap fossil-fuel powered transportation networks....
to what degree does the distribution, implementation, and use of this alternative require massive retrofiting of our industrial infrastructure?.......how much money, energy, and time will this retrofitting require?.....
wwe have an energy infrastructure which is incredibly mammoth and intricate....it is inextricably intertwined with economic, political, and social systems equally mammoth, inticate, and volatile.........
i agree...we need to do something....at what cost?.....and what is the alternative?
the expense,time and scope of such an undertaking is mindboggling....
and that`s if we had a definitive solution.....
i wish we did...i agree...
it's not all or nothing, gw. here's an incredibly realistic and acheivable starting goal:
If we increase the average mpg of all vehicles by 50%, then we no longer need any oil at all frrom the ME. 50% might sound like a lot at first, but really that's just turning a 14 mpg SUV into 21 mpg, etc etc. All it takes is a few standards in place and we can get there. Hybrids are a great step - especially since there are now SUV and truck hybrids.
I myself bought a Civic Hybrid 2 years ago. It averages about 49 mpg. It's my own version of a WW2 "Victory Garden". I believe in supporting this country and it's security. I wish more people could see the big picture.
It's so makeable, and yet the last 2 administrations just haven't gotten it. After 9-11, I thought for sure we'd see more standards put in place. But we've gone the other direction with H2's etc.
If we increase the average mpg of all vehicles by 50%, then we no longer need any oil at all frrom the ME. 50% might sound like a lot at first, but really that's just turning a 14 mpg SUV into 21 mpg, etc etc. All it takes is a few standards in place and we can get there. Hybrids are a great step - especially since there are now SUV and truck hybrids.
I myself bought a Civic Hybrid 2 years ago. It averages about 49 mpg. It's my own version of a WW2 "Victory Garden". I believe in supporting this country and it's security. I wish more people could see the big picture.
It's so makeable, and yet the last 2 administrations just haven't gotten it. After 9-11, I thought for sure we'd see more standards put in place. But we've gone the other direction with H2's etc.
that`s the tip of the iceberg,smurph....transportation....and we`re just talking public transportation...
does the government step in and force industries to convert their trucks,shipping,processing?
does everyone convert their homes to accomodate some sort of alternative fuel?
and not everyone may be as fortunate as yourself and myself...or bill maher...lol
can afford to go out and buy themselves a hybrid automobile..
say some of that have the disposable income to buy a car whenever we want to.... do just that....it`s inconsequential...
and why doesn`t the market force the big automakers to adjust?...because, it`s not cost efficient....i.e...it`s not selling...
should the government force the public to capitulate?..industry?.....more big government?...
i don`t think that will fly...
a few yuppies driving hybrid cars is like hitting an elephant on the ass with a wiffleball bat...
and i don`t believe for a second that extricating ourselves from middle eastern oil solves the terror problem....
doesn`t seem to matter in kosovo....indonesia...the phillipines...the netherlands.....
middle eastern governments want us involved...the need us as much as we need them....they need all the industrialized countries to be dependent on their product....
if we extricated ourselves from middle eastern oil dependence,would that stop a worldwide islamofascist religious jihad?.....
would that stop them from hating us...our relationship with israel and other democratic countries?.......our prosperity.....our lifestyles....
we are the infidels...
they see things like the young people in iran protesting religious and governmental oppression........and it sacres the hell out of them....
they are losing control...many middle easterners don`t want to live in the middle ages...they want self determination...
funny that our oil dependence doesn`t seem to sour our relationship with jordan,egypt and other upwardly mobile arab governments......
`
does the government step in and force industries to convert their trucks,shipping,processing?
does everyone convert their homes to accomodate some sort of alternative fuel?
and not everyone may be as fortunate as yourself and myself...or bill maher...lol
can afford to go out and buy themselves a hybrid automobile..
say some of that have the disposable income to buy a car whenever we want to.... do just that....it`s inconsequential...
and why doesn`t the market force the big automakers to adjust?...because, it`s not cost efficient....i.e...it`s not selling...
should the government force the public to capitulate?..industry?.....more big government?...
i don`t think that will fly...
a few yuppies driving hybrid cars is like hitting an elephant on the ass with a wiffleball bat...
and i don`t believe for a second that extricating ourselves from middle eastern oil solves the terror problem....
doesn`t seem to matter in kosovo....indonesia...the phillipines...the netherlands.....
middle eastern governments want us involved...the need us as much as we need them....they need all the industrialized countries to be dependent on their product....
if we extricated ourselves from middle eastern oil dependence,would that stop a worldwide islamofascist religious jihad?.....
would that stop them from hating us...our relationship with israel and other democratic countries?.......our prosperity.....our lifestyles....
we are the infidels...
they see things like the young people in iran protesting religious and governmental oppression........and it sacres the hell out of them....
they are losing control...many middle easterners don`t want to live in the middle ages...they want self determination...
funny that our oil dependence doesn`t seem to sour our relationship with jordan,egypt and other upwardly mobile arab governments......
`
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you sound like an american't !
i'm simply offering realistic starting points. to some extent, the government probably does need to step in. tougher MPG standards on all new vehicles would not strangle free enterprise by any means.
I'm always hearing people here make comparisons to WW2. Well, In WW2 the government made us ration all kinds of supplies for the war effort. What's the deal - we don't have that level of sacrifice in us anymore?
The ME is a lot like the environment probably. What has already happened will likely be effecting us for a couple generations REGARDLESS of what we do now. But we still need to do something to get on track.
If a group of people hates us, I prefer to not rely economically on any portion of them. It gets us in all kinds of trouble collectively. We end up being hypocrites on many levels and obviously much less secure.
My car new cost $18,800. I don't think that puts me an elite yuppie category that you probably pre-judge me to be. I still have to lug all kinds of things around for my business - in many cases a truck or SUV would be much more handy (just an hour ago I took 435 books to Costco). To say nothing of how much less difficult it is to impress chicks than even when I had a beat up Cherokee.
It's ridiculously minor thing, but I know what I'm doing is the right thing.
i'm simply offering realistic starting points. to some extent, the government probably does need to step in. tougher MPG standards on all new vehicles would not strangle free enterprise by any means.
I'm always hearing people here make comparisons to WW2. Well, In WW2 the government made us ration all kinds of supplies for the war effort. What's the deal - we don't have that level of sacrifice in us anymore?
The ME is a lot like the environment probably. What has already happened will likely be effecting us for a couple generations REGARDLESS of what we do now. But we still need to do something to get on track.
If a group of people hates us, I prefer to not rely economically on any portion of them. It gets us in all kinds of trouble collectively. We end up being hypocrites on many levels and obviously much less secure.
My car new cost $18,800. I don't think that puts me an elite yuppie category that you probably pre-judge me to be. I still have to lug all kinds of things around for my business - in many cases a truck or SUV would be much more handy (just an hour ago I took 435 books to Costco). To say nothing of how much less difficult it is to impress chicks than even when I had a beat up Cherokee.
It's ridiculously minor thing, but I know what I'm doing is the right thing.
i don`t dislike people because they are yuppies....
i actually know people named muffy and todd.....
i actually know people named muffy and todd.....
chan....i sat at my computer and read that whole damned page....and it was some of the scariest stuff i`ve read on the net.....
what are the democracies of the world up against here?....
it`s hard to believe these are rational,intelligent individuals.....educated people....as i know they are....
my mother`s doctor is muslim...and i`ve never met a finer human being....if i could help him,i`d do whatever needed to be done...he`s a wonderful man...he could never countenance this kind of stuff....
it shows you that human beings can be indoctrinated into basically any violent,extreme mindset...and rationalize basically any kind of aberrant behavior...
acting as though you are of a certain faith so you can gain the confidence of a group of another faith....so you can deceive them...with the objective of slaughtering them after you have gained their confidence....?
because they proselytise?.....don`t most religions recruit?...isn`t that acceptable?...
i don`t for a minute believe that all muslims accept this kind of stuff...
this stuff is much scarier than any fiction you could imagine...
it doesn`t seem rational in the 21st century......
chan,you`ve outdone yourself....
fascinating reading....
what are the democracies of the world up against here?....
it`s hard to believe these are rational,intelligent individuals.....educated people....as i know they are....
my mother`s doctor is muslim...and i`ve never met a finer human being....if i could help him,i`d do whatever needed to be done...he`s a wonderful man...he could never countenance this kind of stuff....
it shows you that human beings can be indoctrinated into basically any violent,extreme mindset...and rationalize basically any kind of aberrant behavior...
acting as though you are of a certain faith so you can gain the confidence of a group of another faith....so you can deceive them...with the objective of slaughtering them after you have gained their confidence....?
because they proselytise?.....don`t most religions recruit?...isn`t that acceptable?...
i don`t for a minute believe that all muslims accept this kind of stuff...
this stuff is much scarier than any fiction you could imagine...
it doesn`t seem rational in the 21st century......
chan,you`ve outdone yourself....
fascinating reading....
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Thats what this forum is for- IMHO. My Financial Planner is from Indonesia and I trust him, of course, and wouldn't think of lumping him in w/extremists. Just shows that every race has its wackos- Remember we have BeanTownJim...so much for White Superiority :mj07:
P.S.- At least when My Planner's family, i.e., kids grow up they'll be able to see what America means to them as opposed to what it meant to their Grandparents. There is still hope left.
P.S.- At least when My Planner's family, i.e., kids grow up they'll be able to see what America means to them as opposed to what it meant to their Grandparents. There is still hope left.
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