640(and rising) killed in Baghdad stampede?

[kosar]

WTF? During a pilgrimmage to a shiite shrine. Women, children, you name it. Apparently someone started a rumor that there was a suicide bomber in their midst and they all went nuts.

People were trampled, pushed into the Tigris river, and they were jumping into the river.

This is the climate of fear and panic over there right now.

At least Saddam is gone.

 

[Nosigar]

WTF? During a pilgrimmage to a shiite shrine. Women, children, you name it. Apparently someone started a rumor that there was a suicide bomber in their midst and they all went nuts.

People were trampled, pushed into the Tigris river, and they were jumping into the river.

This is the climate of fear and panic over there right now.

At least Saddam is gone.

Saddam started the rumor.

No, no, sorry....... it was the evil U.S. military

 

[DOGS THAT BARK]

almost as bad as riots during Watts--at least they didn't burn down their neighborhood.

Now we could also go into those in other countries killied in stampedes at soccor events--or theatres when someone yells fire--ect but will stick to religious in middleast--

"The hajj, or annual pilgrimage that is a pillar of the Muslim faith, peaked on Sunday with prayers on Mount Arafat, a hill outside the holy city of Mecca where the Prophet Mohammed delivered his last sermon in 632.

Saudi authorities were on high alert to avoid a repeat of a 1998 stampede in which more than 100 pilgrims were trampled to death during the stoning ritual."

Now out of curiousity what the fck do any of these have to do with GW or Saddam??

 

[djv]

Just saw report. With our own disaster it does not seem to matter how many over there want to jump off a bridge. We could use about 50000 of our troops here at home now to help down south.
We think we can change the middle east. B S.

 

[gardenweasel]

djv...where`s the rest of the world?.....

f-ck the war....these are human beings that have had their lives ripped out from under them...

leave politics out of it...we do...

who is the first country to help when there are disasters around the world?...regardless of their political persuasion...

.who`s the biggest benefactor?.....

who helped the russians with their sub?...all the while they assist iran in building their nuclear reactors.....

the tsunami?....and on and on...

spoiled pricks....

there`s a double standard going on here...and it`s amazingly hypocritical....

 

[smurphy]

Weasel, with all do respect - we are as politically motivated as anyone else in the world.

 

[kosar]

Now out of curiousity what the fck do any of these have to do with GW or Saddam??

I thought the point was expressed, but maybe you missed it. All it takes is some rumor about a suicide bomber to send everybody into a crazy panic with 640 more killed in one shot. That's their mindset right now. We created that atmosphere and there would be no suicide bombers or terrorists if we hadn't invaded. You really have to question which way of life they would prefer right about now, or even since March 03.

And even if a case can be made that they are slightly better off now, is it worth 2,000 killed, 15,000 maimed and a billion a week.

And more to the point, who really gives a shit if they're better off or not. It's not our job to run around the world invading countries trying to make them better off. Especially when there's no hope of overcoming religion.

 

[StevieD]

Maybe we could use a little of that $127,000 a minute we are spending to keep the Iraqi's safe.

 

[gardenweasel]

yet,we still show up,don`t we,smurph........which is more than i can say for our so-called allies...


blame america....you guys epitomize why the democrats are losing time and again....and will contiue to lose...

despite natural disasters....despite a "war for oil"...lol....despite having the media pounding the bush administration ad nauseum...

stil,you can`t get any traction....when does the lightbulb go off?....

i just heard on the radio..."""Hosting C-Span's "Afterwords" program, in which she interviewed former UPenn President Sheldon Hackney, Janet Cohen (wife of former Clinton Sec-Def Bill Cohen), said, "I'm not accusing the south of being terrorists, although that culture has terrorized a race of people historically...." She continued by saying, "How do we reconcile the very enemy we're fighting whose traits are very similar to our own." ...

a blanket statement basically comparing all southerners to terrorists....bunch of elitist morons.....

think,damnit...

i`ll tell you this....if hilary can`t pull it off in "08",you might as well move to france or canada....because your party will become irrelevant...

they don`t have a fricking clue...

 

[StevieD]

Hey GW, what is the Republican plan to get us out of this mess?

 

[DOGS THAT BARK]

'You really have to question which way of life they would prefer right about now, or even since March 03."

From the amount voting and polls I don't think their is much question of who is better off I'd quess about the 80%--the non Sunni population.

Now a question for you--were the 2.7 million Vietnamese/Cambodias that were massacred in the following year as result of our pull out orchestrated by the liberal media/anti war liberals better off--I'd really like to know how a person can whine about 650 civilians and think withdrawal resulting in millions of deaths was right thing to do--could it possibly be more--liberal logic?

 

[StevieD]

It was right Dogs because it was going to happen after 100 Americans were killed or after 50,000 or after 1,000,000 thats the point that you and your thick headed, delusional at best swift boat vets don't get.

 

[djv]

Not sure how we got to who helps who. 600/700 folks jump to there deaths in Iraq. Sorry I can't worry about them. We got a problem here to worry about. And I repeat we will not change the middle east. It will change the day the people there want it to. So far last 2000 years or so they don't seem to want that. Iraq just get your oil running so you can export it again. Just make sure the boats come to USA. If not we should just blow the chit out of them again. That could be our thanks to them for there help.

 

[ferdville]

The same thing would happen here and has, though not to that extent. Concerts, movie theaters, etc. have all seen this happen albeit not to that extent. Really don't know what this has to do with our involvement in Iraq. It has happened before when we were not there.

 

[ferdville]

I believe the Republican plan is now and has been to train the Iraquis to the point where their security forces alone are sufficient to control the country. When that occurs, we will leave. That is the plan. The problem with the plan is that there are no specifics as to how long it will take or at what expense we will see it through. Kerry also said he had a plan, but I guess he doesn't want to share it with the rest of the country. Oh, that is right, Senator Kerry said he didn't have access to enough information to clarify his plan. Let's face it - things are not working out the way the administration thought it would work. I don't give them high grades there because I believe the handwriting has been on the wall for centuries and it says democracy will not work and we cannot expect the people in the Middle East to follow our lead. That is my problem with this conflict - not the lack of a plan, but a seriously flawed objective.

 

[DOGS THAT BARK]

"It was right Dogs because it was going to happen after 100 Americans were killed or after 50,000 or after 1,000,000 thats the point that you and your thick headed, delusional at best swift boat vets don't get."

As I pointed out in other thread deaths of american troops were down 80% from max in tet of 68--South VN troops were doing well with our support 1 year prior to pull out.

For the record

We Vets are delusional because we spent years of blood and effort supporting allies in south viet nam only to see them massacred because of element who's courage extended only to chin music and picket signs forced us to pull out and leave them hanging--literaly.

 

[gardenweasel]

ferd spelled it out......but,the objective was to remove saddam.....remove the most unstable element in the vital middle east....i guess what ferd is saying is "was the objective ever tenable?"

and the plan was flawed..to be fair,the war was waged almost flawlessly...it was the occupation that was mishandled... ..because the resistance...after the war"proper",was under estimated...

the amount of aid, support and collusion from iran and syria....and probably many other arab states under the cloak of anonimity...

i do believe that rumsfeld et al low balled troop deployment...and whiffed on the arab minset...

imo,it seems that in islam, it`s much more acceptable to be murdered,maimed and terrorized by your arab brethren than to accept having the yoke of oppression lifted by a westerner...

it appears that muslims and islamists might as well be from mars.....or the 14th century....as many of the world`s societies have tried to progress through racism,sexism,intolerance,brutality et al...it appears that these "attributes" are tenets of islamic society...

i`ve argued that it borders on racism to allege that muslims can`t handle living in a free,self represented society.....

it appears that i may have to rethink that concept...and apologize to those that i`ve debated...

btw,i`m not sure it`s fair to lay this most recent "catastrophe" at the feet of the administration...this mass slaughter at religious rituals is run of the mill in the middle east...it was apparently,inevitable...

* Aug. 31, 2005: At least 648 Shiite worshippers taking part in annual commemoration of a saint’s death are killed in a stampede on a bridge in Baghdad, with many trampled or tumbling into the Tigris River.

* March 10, 2005: A suicide bomber blows himself up at a Shiite mosque during a funeral in the northern city of Mosul, killing at least 47 people and wounding more than 100.

* Dec. 19, 2004: Car bombs tore through a Najaf funeral procession and Karbala’s main bus station, killing at least 60 people and wounding more than 120 in the two Shiite holy cities.

* March 2, 2004: Coordinated blasts from suicide bombers, mortars and planted explosives strike Shiite Muslim shrines in Karbala and in Baghdad, killing at least 181 and wounding 573.

* Feb. 1 2004: 251 Muslim pilgrims killed in stampede in Saudi Arabian city of Mina during the "stoning ritual" at the annual Muslim pilgrimage.

* Aug. 29, 2003: A car bomb explodes outside mosque in Najaf, killing more than 85 people, including Shiite leader Ayatollah Mohammed Baqir al-Hakim. Although officials never gave a final death toll, there were suspicions it may have been higher.

* July 4, 2003: Gunmen in the Pakistani city of Quetta storm a Shiite Muslim mosque packed with prayer worshippers, killing about 50 and wounding hundreds.

* March 5, 2001: 35 hajj pilgrims killed in stampede during stoning of the devil ritual in Mina.

* April 9, 1998: Some 180 pilgrims trampled to death when panic erupted after several fell off an overpass during the stoning of the devil ritual in Mina.

* April 15, 1997: Fires driven by high winds tore through a sprawling, overcrowded tent city at Mina, trapping and killing more than 340 pilgrims and injuring 1,500.

* May 23, 1994: 270 pilgrims killed in a stampede in Saudi Arabia’s holiest city, Mecca, as worshippers surged toward a cavern for the symbolic ritual of “stoning the devil.”

* July 9, 1990: 1,426 pilgrims killed in a stampede in an overcrowded pedestrian tunnel leading to holy sites in Mecca. It is the worst hajj-related tragedy.

* July 31, 1987: 402 people, mostly Iranian pilgrims, killed and 649 wounded in the Saudi city of Mecca when security forces clash with Iranians staging an anti-U.S. demonstration.

* Aug. 3, 1980: 301 people killed when a Pakistani jetliner carrying hajj pilgrims catches fire soon after takeoff from Jiddah to Riyadh, the Saudi capital, and breaks apart after an emergency landing....


not to mention the purposeful slaughter of untold numbers of christians and hindu`s....and other worshippers of "non-believing faiths "....


some of this stuff is purposeful...some is sheer accident..it`s all almost prehistoric.....it`s seems like one gigantic chinese firedrill,imo...

all hell breaks loose when a westerner mishandles a koran....this stuff,on the other hand,is run of the mill....

i`ll never understand this mindset...

 

[kosar]

all hell breaks loose when a westerner mishandles a koran....this stuff,on the other hand,is run of the mill....

i`ll never understand this mindset...

Of course you don't. Nobody in the west understands this mindset. It's not even possible.

But what we *do* need to understand is that it will never change. Since you say(today anyways) that removing Saddam was the mission, then mission accomplished. Let's go home.

Now, if you share the opinion of Wayne and palehose and others, that we are there to end terrorism, then we must accept that we will be there until the end of time will little positive results and we must implement the draft asap.

If we're there to set up a peaceful democracy, then we must accept that we have very little chance of doing this. But we should give it another year or so, get as many Iraqi people possible trained, and then come home and let what happens, happen.

We cannot continue like this for very much longer without a draft. Some soldiers are on their third rotation. Many are on their second. 40% of the force over there are reservists. ETS' are being extended. Enlistments are down. We have plenty of legitimate threats around the world to deal with, yet we have everybody over there directing traffic and building schools for a country that hates us.

This is not whining, this is being practical. It's not the medias fault, it's not those nasty liberals fault. It's none of that. We cannot change centuries of attitude and mindset.

 

[gardenweasel]

"""If we're there to set up a peaceful democracy, then we must accept that we have very little chance of doing this. But we should give it another year or so, get as many Iraqi people possible trained, and then come home and let what happens, happen.


This is not whining, this is being practical. It's not the medias fault, it's not those nasty liberals fault. It's none of that. We cannot change centuries of attitude and mindset.[/QUOTE]"""

i agree with the top paragraph..the last sentence ,more so....only,i`d say that i wouldn`t set a deadline....you can`t make that public domain...they may have a deadline or a tentative target date in mind...but they can`t go public with it.....even "corky" from "life goes on" realizes that...

as for the mainstrem media...well,you know where i stand...you may be a little to ideolgically tilted to see it...i understand...

i try and rationalize that it`s all anti-bush stemming from "the stolen election",kerry`s loss,clinton`s blowjob and impeachment and on and on...that means that it may come to an end in 2008....i`m glad...

i pray it`s not blatant self hating anti-americanism....

i believe it`s a little of both...

one more little example for you...from the nyt`s...

it`s subtle...but it`s obvious....it`s obviously subtle...it`s contradictory...it`s everything we`ve grown to love about the times...


the editors,in the article, tell us that this is the wrong time to bash bush....with the gulf coast catastrophe and clean-up looming...

then they bash bush, in the same sentence...

" New Orleans in Peril."

"But this seems like the wrong moment to dwell on fault-finding, or even to point out that it took what may become the worst natural disaster in American history to pry President Bush out of his vacation.".....lol...objective journalism at it`s best....

i may just post an ongoing "bias in the media" thread....for chits and giggles...

 

[bjfinste]

as for the mainstrem media...well,you know where i stand...you may be a little to ideolgically tilted to see it...i understand...

Are you f*cking kidding me? Every week that goes by, your posts sound more and more and paranoid and extremist. If any one single person in this forum is too "ideologically tilted" to see something, it's you. You have a bulit-in excuse for anything bad that happens because it's that terrible, evil media's fault. You constantly harp on it, yet it's a crutch you couldn't survive without when making one of your neurotic posts, since you fill in any blanks with "oh, it's the anti-American media's fault." It's sad, really.