i`m drunk...and damn you bryanz..you made me think...

[gardenweasel]

you know what...bryanz made me think a little....in the midst of his standard little "bush is the devil"rant he accidentally made some sense...

at least as much sense as i can comprehend in my coors fog...

so i`ll get serious...for a second....i`ve been playing around in here lately having fun....but,bryanz,you`re right about one thing...

"". Most of the puke in this thread is standard issue rebulican & democrat bull shit.""...the cindy sheehan thread...


...i rode through some old civil war era parts of ellicott city today(one of the oldest parts of maryland)......and i was thinking about this country...
i`ve been thinking abot how far we`ve come in a little over 200 years....pretty amazing....astounding..we have it all...no shit...

and the west in general...it`s amazing...laws...civilization....equality...a standard of living that`s off the charts...

it doesn`t get any better than this...anywhere...


...literally millions of muslims emigrating to the u.s. and europe, while very few westerners reside in the middle east.....and yet we are deemed to"occupy their lands."....

how the f-ck did flawed human beings create all this?...it`s f-cking mind boggling...

then i looked around the net and stunbled onto a v.d.h. article...

and he said something......""it`s pretty apparent now how civilizations commit suicide""......

he said...

"when ego and posturing trump rational observation(and security) among the chattering classes, society is headed for the dumpster.....

political parties,government, media, entertainment, and academia are overflowing with demagogues and poseurs, too cool for facts.....

affluent and leisured(soft) westerners are frantic to avoid any disruption in their sheltered lives""....

(not us)...we`re just gamblers blowing off some steam...lol

but,the fact is that we and our european buddies pour billions of dollars into drecchy,dangerous societies like the middle east..oil...aid....yada/yada...

and, as a result they "will never do the hard political and economic work of building real societies".....

instead their elites wil laugh as we continue to pay $70 a barrel for stuff that it cost them $5 to obtain.......as they acquire real nuclear weapons to threaten neighbors for even more concessions, as they buy support at home with the national prestige of an "islamic bomb"....................

saddam almost grasped that...that`s why he was so dangerous... had he delayed his invasion of kuwait five years until he resurrected his damaged nuclear program, kuwait would now be an iraqi province, and maybe,saudi arabia as well.......or he would have lobbed a nuke into israel..

in the long-term..and the short term..., democracy has the best chance of bringing relief....

might be a lost cause over there...i get that

but, for the foreseeable future the u.s.and it`s allies must also ensure that iran, and states like it, are not nuclear, and that we wean ourselves off a petroleum dependency......

these two things HAVE TO HAPPEN....

i wish we were as "imperial" as as everyone thinks we are....then we could just move in and take it over and blow away any opposition and problem solved..unfortunately,we have conscience and moral guidelines that we live by....

some of you guys were probably right...we should be taking some of that f-cking iranian oil...

whatever....

think about how far we`ve come in a little over 200 years...

and think about the fact that we are beholden to reactionary 6th century zealots...it`s beyond the pale.....

i think we`re in some extremely serious shit with people that have nothing much more to make their lives bearable than vendetta`s and a focus to vent their anger...on a civilization that has left them in the dust...

a vendetta that justifies their archaic beliefs...

"why are the backward, autocratic middle easterners so confident that any would pay their lunacy all this attention?"....

oil and/or nukes..

i`m drunk....

u.f.c. saturday night,guys.....go babalu sobral...

 

[TonyTT]

Damn GW !

Drunk or not.... a pretty thought provoking post. In my opinion one of the best I've read that you've written. :thumb:

TT

 

[JCDunkDogs]

See, there is wisdom at the bottom of a freshly drained beer stein. Salute!

 

[gardenweasel]

whatever sense that load of crap above made,was because i was quoting someone else..

i should have just posted the whole article...

lucky i was hitting the keyboard..

that guy is one very smart man...

 

[djv]

See truth counts. To bad some of our elected officials both sides of the isle can't catch on to that.

 

[bryanz]

I agree with djv.

 

[smurphy]

Keep drinking - seems to be good for you.

I'm in line with most of what you and that guy are saying. I don't agree that Iraq would have or Iran will nuke Israel given the opportunity. They would know that would guarantee their own destruction. Iran actually has a rather intricate political hierarchy. Despite what that lunatic president has said, he does not have authority to actually start wars. He has to go through a fairly conservative process to get anything done.

I think it's innevitable one way or another, sooner or later -Iran will have nuclear weapons. I actually don't fear this. I fear Pakistan having nukes much more. I think they are much more likely to eventually use them.

With Iran, it really is mostly a pride thing. Yeah, I'd rather nobody has nukes but us. But this is like trying to shore up a broken levee with sandbags. It's physically impossible to keep these contries from getting nukes forever. I'd rather be planning ahead than going to war to prevent something that's innevitably going to happen anyway.

i wish we were as "imperial" as as everyone thinks we are....then we could just move in and take it over and blow away any opposition and problem solved..unfortunately,we have conscience and moral guidelines that we live by....

This part is impossible. This guy talks like we could just take over the world if we wanted to. But it's only our moral conscious that prevents us from doing so. ABSOLUTE BULLSHIT. Mathematically, geographically, statistically impossible to take our relatively small military and just do what we want where we want. Even if we forced everyone to serve, we're still smaller than the Islamic enemy we are fighting. To say nothing of other countries that will turn against if we decided to invade everyone. We need to be much smarter internationally than we've been. Most people don't even know where Iran is. We better up our game in hurry.

 

[gardenweasel]

smurph....the writer didn`t say that...i did.... in a drunken stupor...

WE are, after all,the scourge of the earth(not maniacs like saddam or ahmadinnerjacket)...moral relativism...or as the author put it,"laws of asymmetry"....islam asks nothing of its own people and everything of everyone else's...

and the left buys into it....hook, line and sinker...witness clinton drooling all over the middle east with apologies for the european cartoon fiasco....

what happened to freedom of speech?...it`s o.k. for newspapers to plaster secret intelligence all over the world.....not o.k. for free societies to post political cartoons?... it`s o.k. to lampoon mutilated american servicemen....not o.k. to post a cartoon of mohammed?....

but,it`s o.k. for clinton to have 900 private f.b.i files on republicans in the white house?....

you`re warped..
you`d better hope somebody keeps nukes out of these idiot`s hands....

i suggest you read up on some comments coming out of iran...

the gist of which are that it would be worth losing thousands of muslims to wipe israel off the face of the earth....

in essence,we can wipe israel out...you can`t even come close to wiping out all muslims...

this idiot in iran,60 years after the holocaust, trumps mein kampf by not only promising, like hitler, to wipe out the joos, but, goes publicly about the business of obtaining the means to do it.

you don`t "think" that iran will use weapons?....playing pretty fast and loose with israel`s annihilation,aren`t you smurph?...

nobody thought that saddam would lob scuds into israel..or burn kuwaiti oil fields...

and again,nobody believed hitler,either.....

and this guy absolutely does have links to terrorism....that`s no longer an argument the left can make...

as i said in another thread...the israeli`s are "the canary in the coal mine"...

mighty white of you,partner...

 

[StevieD]

Gw, you mention that there is no argument that the left can make not to attack Iran. Well, I ask you, just who on the left is trying to make that argument?

 

[smurphy]

Wow, you write so much more clearly when you are drunk. I have read up on Iran. Those who know about the country keep saying that Ahmaddinerjacket's quotes don't make any sense. He doesn't actually have the authority to start a war. Any decision of that nature goes through a heirarchy of their establishment - an establishment whose primary concern is to stay alive and maintain the nation. They would never agree to something so suicidal. Dinnerjacket's ramblings are pretty empty when it comes down to it. In dealing with them, the worst mistake we could make would be to attack first, leaving them with a legitimate reason and excuse to go to war.

I think there's legitimate concern about nukes from them getting in others hands. But again I am more concerned about Pakistan. It's strange, Pak is nuclear but it's as if they are not an issue whatsoever. In the long run, Iran with nukes won't be any worse than Pakistan with nukes IMO.

I'm all for doing what we can to discourage the development, short of a pre-emptive war. That would be a massive mistake imo.

Israel has been in danger of annihilation from day 1. You speak as if this is something new. The danger will always be there. I don't want to do something stupid out of fear for their safety.

"Nobody thought Saddam would burn Kuwaiti oil fields or lob scuds into Isreal"??? ....Who was surprised at that? Your losing me there.

Please no more Hitler comparisons. So irrelevant.

 

[gardenweasel]

post that for me,stevie....which sentence are you referring to?

 

[gardenweasel]

smurphy...you don`t get it.....

"""when ego and posturing trump rational observation(and security) among the chattering classes, society is headed for the dumpster.....

political parties,government, media, entertainment, and academia are overflowing with demagogues and poseurs, too cool for facts.....

affluent and leisured(soft) westerners are frantic to avoid any disruption in their sheltered lives""....

i`m glad you`re so sure that this guy`s race to produce nuclear weapons is a non-issue...

keep arguing over cindy sheehan...that`s your strong suit...

 

[gardenweasel]

you really don`t get the analogy btween nazi germany and radical islam?.....


whew....

i`ll come back and try and enlighten you after the u.f.c....

 

[smurphy]

I'm simply stating my view based on what I've learned about Iran's system. Hitler could do what he wanted - he did not have to answer to anyone. It's an entirely different structure in Iran. Based on what I've learned, Dinnerjacket's rhetoric does not have teeth to back it up. I believe it would be a huge mistake to be overly-aggressive. If we do, I hope we are ready - it will make Iraq look like Grenada.

"""when ego and posturing trump rational observation(and security) among the chattering classes, society is headed for the dumpster.....

political parties,government, media, entertainment, and academia are overflowing with demagogues and poseurs, too cool for facts.....

affluent and leisured(soft) westerners are frantic to avoid any disruption in their sheltered lives""....

OK..... What is this other than the all-to familiar lidealogical rambling that we are so inundated with from both sides? Facts are great - give me more facts.

 

[djv]

I do believe when the chit starts in Iran. Much like is happening in Iraq will happen. There are a couple groups there that do not like the folks in power now. They will cause many problems for them. We will back them as silently as we can. Other then for our air strikes. Don't look for a foul up as with Iraq and a invasion. Don't believe Bush has enough left in the tank to do it. We will find other ways.

 

[smurphy]

The legitimate stuff I've read says Iran is not close to any kind of serious rebellion. I do not think Iran is like Iraq. If we start some shit, they will probably be very united.

Iraq was doomed to fracture ever since it's boundaries were drawn up nearly 100 years ago. Iran is different in that respect.

 

[StevieD]

GW, three lines from the end of your post. The one before I ask the question. You said something about the left can no longer question the fact that this guy in Iran had ties to terrorism. My question is which guys on the left are questioning Irans ties to terrorism?

 

[Nosigar]

GW, three lines from the end of your post. The one before I ask the question. You said something about the left can no longer question the fact that this guy in Iran had ties to terrorism. My question is which guys on the left are questioning Irans ties to terrorism?

Semantics? Never reality. :violin:


Go to hell..... 3 lines? Gi,'me an f-ing breaak

 

[StevieD]

Nosigar, I take that to mean that you can't pull a quote from someone on the left that questions Irans connection to terrorism. Talk about someone who can't deal with reality you are the poster child. Now be a good boy and say your Pledge of Allegiance to the Republican party before you go to bed.

 

[gardenweasel]

stevie...there was the debate on iraq having some ties to terrorism....

and everyone weighed in...the debate was formed based on the left`s assertion that bush stated "unequivocally" that iraq had some sort of direct ties with 9/11...which i never bought...

he was involved in terror...not with 9/11 directly...but, he owned and operated a full-service general store for global terrorists, complete with cash, diplomatic aid, safe haven, training, and even medical attention...... such assistance violated u.n.security council resolution 687. ........the results not only broke international law, but also were deadly.....

it was a huge point of contention...

but,that`s not the issue here...

all i`m saying is that there`s no such argument to be made with iran...

plainly put...based on past performance.... ...religious zealotry and/or fanatical-magical 4th century crapthink,there are just some leaders in the middle east that are to dangerous and unstable to give the benefit of the doubt to....regarding nuclear weapons....

i can pretty much assure you guys that i can pull some quotes from saddam hussein that are similar to ahmadinnerjacket`s....i`ll try and post them if asked......

there are no if`s and or buts....whether they`d actually use them...pass them on to al qaeda.....or just use them as leverage....

it can`t be allowed to happen...period...

can we invade?...no....and i`m not sure that we could invade iran even if we hadn`t gone into iraq...

smurph...i`m not sure i understand your position...

are you saying that we sit back and let iran,and every other whacky nut case nuke up?...and take over kuwait,or saudi arabia or qatar or close the starits of hormuz..... use nuclear blackmail on the world?

look...there`s to many issues here to do justice to....

let me say this...bush is trying very hard to get the u.n.,the e.u.(and the world) on board with this effort to stop a nation from getting nuclear weapons....a nation that swears it will blow another u.n. member nation...and a democracy .. off the face of the earth if it gets them...

no one knew for sure what iraq had...but,iran proclaims proudly that they aren`t negotiating...allowing any more inspections...and are going full speed ahaead....

what is the world doing?....

the matter of iran’s manhattan project has been referred to the u.n. security council, who want to let it sit until oh, about march, at which point they’ll discuss the possibility of having meetings to work toward a decision on whether or not to issue a strongly worded denunciation.....

???????

didn`t we see this before?...al baradei is a fricking conspirator...he`s helping his fellow muslims,imo...

all the while,iraq moves forrward....and nobody can tell you with absolute certainty how far along they actually are....we`ve already seen the world`s...and our intelligence at work....

the world will do nothing...as in ww2...only,this time the "joos" have a choice...an option...and some powerful allies...

the answer is...the u.s.,britain and israel will have to collaborate to surgically strike all known possible nuclear targets in iran....it may take weeks...and it won`t be easy....

and may lead to retaliation on israel and our forces in iraq....

what`s the real alternative?...u.n. resolutions?.....sanctions?..what`s the point?...the u.n.`s "drivel and drool" desolves paper pretty efficiently.....we`ve seen that they`re useless....

"oil for food II" coming right up...

wait until the next world war breaks out?..a nuclear attack on israel?.....from iraq?.......new york?...london?....from al qaeda?

how much does the chance that that could happen increase incrementally if iraq has nuclear weapons?.... that might just signify the end of days...