San Francisco & the Olympic Torch

[Double Two]

How proud Sponge, smuprhy, Spytheweb and the rest on the left must be this evening as the city they revere for it's liberal ways, San Francisco, really showed it's true colors today. Thought those on the left stood for individuals rights. Don't they hate it when someone tries to push his or her ideas on another society(President Bush on Iraq comes to mind). Would like for them to explain to the children that simply wanted to view the Olymipic Torch as it passed why they were not allow to do so. Let me see if I can clarify:

"I'm sorry little girl and boy but we must protest this event because the Olympics are being held in China and we are against China. We have to responed like they did in France & Germany because we do agree with those countries. You see little ones France & Germany are the countries who help us formulate our views, not the country you live in, the USA. Even though we said the hell with your right to see the Torch, believe me it was for the best. We must show China how bad and wrong they are in dealing with other countries"(In other words, push their ideas on China)

Typical of the hypocritical left to protest for the rights of other people while disregarding the rights of their own. By the way, do any of the clowns protesting have a real job or do they just go from protest to protest? Guess the MoveOn people support some of them but seriously, I find it hard to understand how these same groups can protest anything & everything and still earn a living.

The Olympic Games bring the world together for a few days every 4 years for some friendly competition...a very noble event that those on the left can't dispute. I would just like to apologize to the people in San Francisco who were denied their right to view the Olympic Torch today. It seems the left in this country care more about the people of Tibet than their own.

 

[The Sponge]

Smurf?

http://www.madjacksports.com/forum/showthread.php?t=320797

 

[The Sponge]

As you can see i didn't get in that other fellas post because Sponge is to lazy to protest. You do have that uncanny Fox News special skill of painting a mountain of people with the brush of a select few. Just saying.

 

[ImFeklhr]

DoubleTwo:
I disagree with your assessment on a couple levels. I am not quite sure what you mean by "San Francisco showed its true colors today" Either you mean the people at the protesters/citizens, or you mean the city government. Let me address the first, the protester/citizens. I work a few blocks from where the relay was set to begin and I went down at 1pm to check things out.

As I mentioned in my thread over the past few weeks I had been torn about what role to personally take in any protests. I have serious problems with China as a country and the IOC granting it the 2008 Summer Olympics. While the Olympics are supposed to be non-political, Chinese tactics in Darfur, Tibet, Burma, coupled with the way it treats its own citizens (lack of free speech, meaningful elections, the right to dissent, the right to procreate as you see fit, the right to practice religion, etc. etc. etc.) leaves a lot to be desired. Keep in mind this is hardly the first Olympics to have political undertones (the US boycott of the Olympics in the USSR etc.). China is using these games as a way to make the world think they are something they are not.

Anyway, back to Wednesday: If it was the citizens of San Francisco/protesters "showing their true colors," then our true colors aren't so bad after all. My experience amongst the crowd was one of mild tension coupled with excitement. To be sure there were shouting matches between the Free-Tibet crowd and the Pro-China crowd. I later read that earlier in the day there were a few arrests when the disagreements turned mildly physical (shoving/grabbing etc.) However, I didn't hear or see any property destruction or injuries as a result. So far so good, right?

I was actually pretty surprised the Pro-China contingent was so big. I later learned that Chinese interests bussed in Chinese citizens living in the US to the protests. As well as Chinese-Americans who are just generally sympathetic to Chinese nationality. That left me with a bad taste in my mouth, but fine, there is nothing specifically wrong with marshalling the troops. I am sure the pro-Tibeters did the same thing. There were about 10,000 people down where the torch was supposed to start, and I am sure at least double that scattered around the rest of the path, and the finishing point of the relay. So, figuring conservatively there were 25,000-35,000 people there for one reason or another, and only a few arrests, and little significant trouble. So if those are the true colors, again, I think everything is just fine.

Now lets take a look at if you meant the government of San Francisco showed it's true colors. If that is what you meant, then I might have to mildly agree with you. There was a definite Chinese-sympathizing attitude by the powers that be, Mayor Newsom and other heavy players. Yes, the majority of the town council sided with the Pro-Tibeters, but the people who called the shots, cow-towed to the Chinese. They did everything in their power to avoid "embarrassment" and keep the torch relay sterile. That way the pictures going back to China would be an illusion of happiness. I personally don't think there would have been a major problem like we saw in France and the UK, as the police were out in force, and the mood didn't seem incendiary. But, the fact is, we will never know because the torch relay was moved away from the protesters.

So your other complaints were that the kids showing up to see the relay had their days ruined by the protests. Well, first of all, I didn't see a lot of kids out there (hello, it was a school day!), and secondly, it wasn't the protesters who changed the route, it was the City Government cow-towing to China, that made the change. The all important little kiddies would have seen the relay just fine, had the route not been changed.

As for "pushing our ideas on China". I just have to laugh. How is expressing free speech in a peaceful way, pushing your ideas on someone else? By that logic pretty much any expression of ones opinions is pushy. A journalist is pushy, a voter is pushy. Boston Tea party, pushy. Kent St., pushy. Tiananmen square, pushy. Trade embargo against Cuba, pushy. Well shit, humans are pretty friggin? pushy, now aren?t they?

EVERYONE, all the protesters, all the casual viewers, everyone, had their rights marginalized by the government and the Chinese organizing of the event. Don't blame some mythical "left" for that.

As I touched on previously, the demographics of the crowd was not primarily the MoveOn crowd you assume. I would say greater than 50% of the people on either side, were Asian. The Free-Tibet crowd was made up mostly of Tibetans living in America who have a real concern about their homeland, nothing wrong with that. And as I said before, the Pro-China crowd was also well represented. Of course there WERE plenty of career protesters out there. Those white hippies who show up to every protest, no matter what the cause. I too find them annoying! But I would say it was 50% Asian, 15% 'annoying professional protesters" and the rest were just casual observers who were there to see the event, or who worked in the area and spent their lunch break checking things out (such as myself).

What I feel is your weakest argument, is the comment "By the way, do any of the clowns protesting have a real job or do they just go from protest to protest?" I never quite understood what people mean by this. You show up to a protest so you don't have a job? Let's see, there were about 20-30 day-baseball games in the first week or two of the MLB season. Say the average attendance was 35,000. Does that mean the 750,000 people across the country that showed up to those games are dead-beats without jobs? People make time for what is important to them. Some people take a day off work to see a baseball game, or go to Vegas to gamble, some take a day off to protest a hot-button issue. Seems reasonable to me.

Well, that's my two cents. Sorry for the long post.

 

[gardenweasel]

"As well as Chinese-Americans who are just generally sympathetic to Chinese nationality. That left me with a bad taste in my mouth"...




yes,it seemed like alot of the pro-chinese contingent were either chinese nationals or of chinese descent...


does the fact that around 85-90% of blacks are voting for obama because they "sympathize" with his racial identity leave a bad taste?....hillary garnering so many female votes?....
just askin`...

what about `frisco banning the rotc,im?...how about a little "cowtowing" to those that preserve their right to protest?....

 

[Double Two]

You make some good points ImFeklhr and I'm sure they are well meaning...I happen to respectfully disagree with a few of them. I'm not going to challange your observations on the mood of the crowd yesterday. You were there while I had to depend on our "Un-bias" media for an "Accurate" account. However, let me address a few points:

As to who I meant when I said S.F. showed it's true colors you asked if I was refering to the local government or it's citizens...aren't they one in the same? I mean you still hold elections every 4 years so one would have to assume the elected officials reflect the voice of the people!??! I'm not saying all of the people but if the fine people of S.F. do not like the fact that their city has become the "Beacon of Light" that guides the far-left, they should vote their progressive governtment out.

As for the protests against the Chinese government's politics by the left, career protesters or whoever, let me tell them all one thing. The Chinese government does NOT give a "Rats-Ass" what they or anyone else thinks. As far as China is concerned, they can protest and get the route of the Olympic torch changed all they want, it will NOT sway China one way or another.

This leads me to another point. You say it was the city governments "cow-towing' towards China as to the reason the route of the Olympic tourch had to be modified. Answer me this: If there had not been any left-wing, pro-Tibet, pro-China or career protesters in S.F. yesterday, would the route have been changed? Seems to me that the city gorvernment "cow-towed" toward the protests.

I do mildly agree with you on what you consider my weakest agrument. Not all of those who participate in these protest events are job-less. Guess my point was that their energy could be directed toward more usefull endeavors. I mean seriously, the Olympic torch?!!?

Respect you opinions ImFeklhr, especially since you to live in San Francisco, but you must know how your great city is viewed by most of the people in this country(at least we people in "Fly Over Country"). When some in your city protest against everything that does not fit their agenda, one must see the city of S.F. as being controlled by far-left liberals. When S.F. denies ROTC progarms and a warship memorial in their harbor, one might see S.F. as, dare I say it, Un-American.

Congtrats on the Giants win last night(I bet on the Padres:shrug and have a nice day my friend. Hopefully a day without any protests!!!

 

[ImFeklhr]

yes,it seemed like alot of the pro-chinese contingent were either chinese nationals or of chinese descent...


does the fact that around 85-90% of blacks are voting for obama because they "sympathize" with his racial identity leave a bad taste?....hillary garnering so many female votes?....
just askin`...

what about `frisco banning the rotc,im?...how about a little "cowtowing" to those that preserve their right to protest?....

No blacks voting for Obama doesn't bother me, etc. because they are US citizens. One man, one vote. If their motives for voting for him are purely racial, I feel sorry for them, to be sure. But, elections have always seemed like popularity contests to me, so I'm accustomed to seeing candidates that are chosen because they are "electable" (i.e. appeal to the most amount of people, for whatever reason)

The bad taste in my mouth is a pretty subjective observation. I'll admit a bias against China, because of the way they run their country. I also live with someone from Taiwan, so I tend to support them against China as well.

The San Francisco public school board made a BAD decision when they banned the high school ROTC program. That was actually a pretty sad story, because their reasons for doing so had a lot to do with the "Don't Ask Don't Tell" policy, but the high school ROTC program let anybody join. The pro-ROTC group highlighted one of the student leaders at one school was this queeny little 16 year old guy who had turned his school life around because of joining the ROTC (yeah I know, only in San Francisco).

The point is, I do see fault in a ton of what San Francisco does, and I am nuanced enough to know every town has its problems and bad policies. I just defend San Francisco on issues I feel strongly about.

 

[StevieD]

"As well as Chinese-Americans who are just generally sympathetic to Chinese nationality. That left me with a bad taste in my mouth"...




yes,it seemed like alot of the pro-chinese contingent were either chinese nationals or of chinese descent...


does the fact that around 85-90% of blacks are voting for obama because they "sympathize" with his racial identity leave a bad taste?....hillary garnering so many female votes?....
just askin`...

what about `frisco banning the rotc,im?...how about a little "cowtowing" to those that preserve their right to protest?....

GW you mention blacks voting for Obama because he is black. Classic Karl Rove. You make it sound like because the guy is black he has an advantage!:mj07: I hear them say that time after time on Fox that blacks are voting for obama just because he is black but they never mention the guys that aren't going to vote for him because he is black.

 

[ImFeklhr]

As to who I meant when I said S.F. showed it's true colors you asked if I was refering to the local government or it's citizens...aren't they one in the same?

Yes, and no. As an American I don't always agree with every action of our government takes, and don't think their behavior should always reflect back on me personally.

The Chinese government does NOT give a "Rats-Ass" what they or anyone else thinks. As far as China is concerned, they can protest and get the route of the Olympic torch changed all they want, it will NOT sway China one way or another.

It probably won't change anything China does. I agree. But if they didn't give a rats ass, their nationally-run media wouldn't edit the stories. They reported the torch was put out in Paris because of "technical difficulties"... They have a habit of kicking out the international media when things are happening in Tibet, etc. So they definitely care enough to use their internal power to mold its citizens.

This leads me to another point. You say it was the city governments "cow-towing' towards China as to the reason the route of the Olympic tourch had to be modified. Answer me this: If there had not been any left-wing, pro-Tibet, pro-China or career protesters in S.F. yesterday, would the route have been changed? Seems to me that the city gorvernment "cow-towed" toward the protests.

You are right. If nobody ever protested, nobody would ever be inconvenienced. And trust me, it can be exhausting living here sometimes. But at the end of the day, I would rather have a loud and noisy debate, than comfortable silence.

I really just think the city government overreacted. I was looking FORWARD to San Francisco showing that it could hold passionate protests, yet still remain somewhat professional (ie not tackle the torch). But because of the actions in London and Paris, we didn't get that chance.

When some in your city protest against everything that does not fit their agenda, one must see the city of S.F. as being controlled far-left liberals. When S.F. denies ROTC progarms and a warship memorial in their harbor, one might see S.F. as, dare I say it, Un-American.

We know how we are viewed, and sometimes we ARE embarrassed. People who grew up here are solidly liberal for the most part, but I find that the TRUE whack-jobs are those born in other parts of the country, that move here because nowhere else in the country will tolerate them. So we get this infusion of crazy, from all over the world. It's our greatest strength and our greatest weakness. So it goes.

Congtrats on the Giants win last night(I bet on the Padres:shrug and have a nice day my friend. Hopefully a day without any protests!!!

It's going to have to be a lot of 1-0 games, if the Giants are to win. Just a horrible horrible offense, but that win felt good! :00hour

Thanks for responding.

 

[Jabberwocky]

GW you mention blacks voting for Obama because he is black. Classic Karl Rove. You make it sound like because the guy is black he has an advantage!:mj07: I hear them say that time after time on Fox that blacks are voting for obama just because he is black but they never mention the guys that aren't going to vote for him because he is black.

What is up with all of these old white guys voting for McCain?

 

[ImFeklhr]

my favorite pic from yesterdays protest:

Then the crappy ones I took:

 

[gardenweasel]

GW you mention blacks voting for Obama because he is black. Classic Karl Rove. You make it sound like because the guy is black he has an advantage!:mj07: I hear them say that time after time on Fox that blacks are voting for obama just because he is black but they never mention the guys that aren't going to vote for him because he is black.

no...i`m saying that 90% of blacks are voting for him because he`s experienced...

(that was a joke,son..../foghorn leghorn)

yes...why else would you think that such a majority of his peeps are voting for him rather than the "1st black president`s wife"?.....

it`s called identity politics....what`s really putting him over the hump is the guilty/white student/yuppy/moonbat vote.......

imfeh...nice response...fair....

btw....randy rhodes is back! in san franfreakshow after calling geraldine ferraro and hillary "f-cking bitches" and "whores" .......

seems air america shit canned her and a san fran. station scarfed her up...

she blaspheemed and hillary made a phone call....

her next stop will obviously be msnbc....

 

[WhatsHisNuts]

How proud Sponge, smuprhy, Spytheweb and the rest on the left must be this evening as the city they revere for it's liberal ways, San Francisco, really showed it's true colors today. Thought those on the left stood for individuals rights. Don't they hate it when someone tries to push his or her ideas on another society(President Bush on Iraq comes to mind). Would like for them to explain to the children that simply wanted to view the Olymipic Torch as it passed why they were not allow to do so. Let me see if I can clarify:

"I'm sorry little girl and boy but we must protest this event because the Olympics are being held in China and we are against China. We have to responed like they did in France & Germany because we do agree with those countries. You see little ones France & Germany are the countries who help us formulate our views, not the country you live in, the USA. Even though we said the hell with your right to see the Torch, believe me it was for the best. We must show China how bad and wrong they are in dealing with other countries"(In other words, push their ideas on China)

Typical of the hypocritical left to protest for the rights of other people while disregarding the rights of their own. By the way, do any of the clowns protesting have a real job or do they just go from protest to protest? Guess the MoveOn people support some of them but seriously, I find it hard to understand how these same groups can protest anything & everything and still earn a living.

The Olympic Games bring the world together for a few days every 4 years for some friendly competition...a very noble event that those on the left can't dispute. I would just like to apologize to the people in San Francisco who were denied their right to view the Olympic Torch today. It seems the left in this country care more about the people of Tibet than their own.

I'm very liberal and I don't support the torch obstruction. Now what?

 

[Double Two]

I'm very liberal and I don't support the torch obstruction. Now what?

You could vote for McCain this fall!!!:yup Just a suggestion!!!

 

[gardenweasel]

yes,these were at the protest....

i think this is why the space ships do not land. ....
no one wants to get involved with this crap....

they just enter the atmosphere,take a look and flash their gone.....

 

[ImFeklhr]

yes,these were at the protest....

i think this is why the space ships do not land. ....
no one wants to get involved with this crap....

they just enter the atmosphere,take a look and flash their gone.....

:mj07: :mj07:

Yeah it brings out all comers. I still love the "Go Golden State Warriors" protestors the most. :00hour

But seriously, I don't have a specific take on either those issues you showed but a lot of stuff like Vietnamese Fisherman, or abortion, or eminent domain, or a flat tax, or legal ferret ownership, or term limits in the Nebraska state senate, are important to varying segments of the population.

No harm in them expressing their opinions at events a lot of people are watching.

All about free speech and expression, it's what makes this country great. :00hour

What's the alternative, just talking about this stuff in church? Well some of us don't go to church, so we have to talk about politics somewhere else.