Define--Windfall profits

StevieD

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Dogs you can cry until you are blue in the face. The fact is that the high oil prices has affected the stock market in a negative way. Your argument borders on insanity to suggest that high oil prices actually HELP THE ECONOMY. Profit margins have nothing to do with anything. It is just a smoke screen. While Big Oil makes record profits America's working class takes it up the A$$ again.
You can cut and paste every American hating article you can find but you will never get over the fact that everytime oil goes up the market goes down. No matter what those Liars you like to quote tell you.
 

marine

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You can cut and paste every American hating article you can find but you will never get over the fact that everytime oil goes up the market goes down. No matter what those Liars you like to quote tell you.

Weird, You'd think that starting in 2002 the red line would be going down according to your theory. hmmm. I'm stumped. I mean, you clearly state it is a fact that everytime oil goes up the market goes down, but when you actually have a chart, it doesn't show that. Please help me understand.

http://bp2.blogger.com/_sy2qqBjcPIg.../s1600-h/WTIC_Oil_Prices_vs_USD_vs_SnP500.png
 
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StevieD

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How Oil Pricing Affects Investor Decisions

by: Chad Lapa posted on: May 21, 2008 | about stocks: DBO / OIL / USO Font Size: PrintEmail

There is no doubt that the US places a heavy emphasis on the oil markets, both domestically and internationally, as both citizens and industry are heavily dependent upon its production and pricing to meet daily consumption needs. With oil prices hitting an all time high in 2008, economic speculation has been generated both supporting the continued price movement and suggesting that there will be a market correction within the year. Both positions are based upon recent current events and traditional investor behavior. To understand the pricing of oil and how it affects investor decisions, there are several important economic events and factors to become familiar with.

The early part of 2008 has proven to be a turbulent investment market for oil both in the United States and internationally. We have experienced prices hitting all time highs as well as slight (short lived) corrections based on news released related to the markets via government reports, only to see the oil soar to record highs again and again.

In early March, oil prices fell following a mixed report from the Energy Department?s Energy Information Administrating regarding the levels of oil inventory. The department?s analysts were looking for a decline in oil distillate supplies, but the reports showed a substantially greater decline than expected. On a positive note, the energy department?s report showed an inventory rise in oil barrels, causing an overall mixed review for the release of their information among the investor community. This outlook created a short term drop in oil prices, but the market soon rallied with another spike, causing oil prices to reach over $100 for the 2nd time in 2008.

With oil prices hovering around and above all time highs, consumers have been experiencing price increases in their every day consumables, putting even more pressure on the middle class and the average investor within the US. As gasoline prices increase, a consumer?s available discretionary income to spend in other market sectors decreases, putting pressure on the retail markets and other consumer driven economies. Decreased consumer spending can also occur with relationship to the oil sector; consumers who are unable to afford gasoline prices may turn to alternative methods of transportation that, in large enough volumes, can put pressure on the oil demand within the US. Both consumer reactions will affect the pricing of domestic oil.

In addition to pressure on retail spending, the uncertainty among investors as it relates to the US stock market has a direct effect on the oil market. Investors have been traditionally known to turn to commodities as an investment alternative when the stock market becomes volatile, as commodities have less correlation to the same economic indicators as traditional stocks or bonds.

Another significant correlation to understand with regards to the US oil market relates to the value of the nation?s currency. When the US dollar becomes weakened, the oil market responds favorably. When the US dollar falls, it provides less financial incentive for foreign countries to increase oil outputs which reduces oil supply. This reduction in supply is known to cause a rise in oil prices. Crude oil in particular is thought of as a hedge against a weakening dollar by both domestic and international investors. As the US dollar has been on a steady decline in recent months, there has been a surge in investor interest within the oil markets, also contributing to the rise in price.

Another economic factor to become familiar with is the relationship of US interest rates and oil pricing. With the Fed completing a series of interest rate cuts already this year in an attempt to stimulate the US economy in hopes to avoid a recession, the oil markets experience stimulation as this is considered among international investors to be a sign that the US economy is declining.

All of these factors have positive and negative correlations to both domestic and international oil pricing and are important to understand if you are personally considering taking a position in this always interesting market sector.
 

StevieD

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Marine, from todays Yahoo Finance Headlines. Day after day we see this. Oil up stocks down. Oil Down Stocks up. It really is pretty easy to see.

Top Stories
Stocks Soar as Oil Plunges- AP
Stocks rebounded Friday from a sell-off a day earlier as a sharp drop in oil prices eased worries over a quarterly loss from mortgage finance company Fannie Mae that was more than triple what Wall Street expected.
 

StevieD

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please help me to understand why that graph shows differently then please.

I cannot do that. Will have to look into it more. But I will!!!!!:142smilie :shrug: :scared

I am back.

After doing very little research if you look at the last 18 months the trend in the market is down while oil spikes. And it is the last 18 months in which oil has consistently hit new highs.:toast:
 
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Chadman

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"In the first quarter of 2008, Big Oil had a profit margin of 7.4 percent. Over that same period, the pharmaceutical and medicine industry earned a 25.9 percent profit, the chemical industry earned 15.7 percent and the electronic equipment industry earned 12.1 percent"

I think the important thing to point out in this revue, is the margins of all of these, especially pharma and medicine profits. Who is paying for that, directly? That's right, you and me. Who is doing anything to address these issues, or think about regulating these people, or changing the way all of us have to interact with them? Dems, for the most part. And who is protecting them? What administration has done everything in their power to make sure the government cannot shop around for the best price, to make things more competitive? Yeah, if you don't know which one, then you need to check. Even Minnesota's republican governor stood up to that B.S., to his credit.

More importantly, perhaps, is which of these sectors are elective, and which are necessary for most Americans? It's oil and medicine/pharma, of course. We all pretty much have to use these things to live our lives, and the prices we are paying for those are really affecting most of us. And these two sectors essentially operate with no real competition, with uncontrolled costs, and are things that most of us have to pay whatever the asking price is. I suppose the chemical sector is similar in some ways - not sure what all that entails, but electronics? That truly is an unprotected free market sector. We don't HAVE to buy electronics. And nobody is giving them tax breaks, or protecting them from harm legislatively, and legally. No tax breaks for those other sectors - but oil? Gimme a break. Most of the other measurable sectors are elective, as well.

Conservatives made sure that big oil companies could merge a few years back, and now we're down to a handful of large companies that control the market and the price. Between our big companies and OPEC, it's a pretty good gig. And common sense tells you that if you are selling enough stuff, you don't have to have a large profit margin.

And maybe if the CEO's and management weren't taking millions/billions out in bonuses, and awarding shareholders many more millions/billions, they could have a higher profit margin. In many ways, they keep their own profits down, to the benefit of a few - and at the expense of all of us.

And Pharma/medicine? That's so far out of control, that I don't know how we get back from that.
 

marine

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Seriously people, you whine & B*tch like it's the oil companies that are pulling the price of oil out of thin air. Do you even understand how, and more importantly, WHO really sets the price of oil?

Learn to hate the right people.
 

Jabberwocky

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please help me to understand why that graph shows differently then please.

I got the point you are refuting, but you really think that the plummeting dollar and skyrocketing oil cost is a good thing for the American people? I have no complaints with the performance of the market for the last 6 years. However, as the value of the dollar plummets so goes the value of those gains made in the market. Another factor to consider is how cheap it is now for foreign investors to gobble up American assets and equities. The chart you posted illustrates a disturbing trend for American interests. But no, there is obviously not an inverse correlation (as of yet) between the price of stocks and oil. What the chart does not show is the impact on small business and American families.
 

Jabberwocky

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Seriously people, you whine & B*tch like it's the oil companies that are pulling the price of oil out of thin air. Do you even understand how, and more importantly, WHO really sets the price of oil?

Learn to hate the right people.

I don't whine and bitch about it. I am just not sure that we are seeing free market economics at work.
 

StevieD

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Seriously people, you whine & B*tch like it's the oil companies that are pulling the price of oil out of thin air. Do you even understand how, and more importantly, WHO really sets the price of oil?

Learn to hate the right people.

You like to B*tch and complain about people who are trying to point out who the people to hate are. And in doing so you defend them and make things worse. Along with getting out of Iraq Big Oil and the Medical Industry must be kicked down a notch or two before this country can get back on it's feet.
 

StevieD

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I got the point you are refuting, but you really think that the plummeting dollar and skyrocketing oil cost is a good thing for the American people? I have no complaints with the performance of the market for the last 6 years. However, as the value of the dollar plummets so goes the value of those gains made in the market. Another factor to consider is how cheap it is now for foreign investors to gobble up American assets and equities. The chart you posted illustrates a disturbing trend for American interests. But no, there is obviously not an inverse correlation (as of yet) between the price of stocks and oil. What the chart does not show is the impact on small business and American families.

Take a look at the spike in oil for the last 18 months and what it has done to the Stock Market.
 

Chadman

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OK, speaking of pharma/medicine companies running rampant over us - we have this story:

Prices for some drugs skyrocket

Abbott Laboratories agreed last week to pay up to $27.5 million to settle a lawsuit that accused the company of raising the price of its HIV/AIDS drug Norvir to drive patients toward a newer drug called Kaletra.

By Julie Appleby, USA TODAY
Drug companies are quietly pushing through price hikes of 100% ? or even more than 1,000% ? for a very small but growing number of prescription drugs, helping to drive up costs for insurers, patients and government programs.

The number of brand-name drugs with increases of 100% or more could double this year from four years ago, researchers from the University of Minnesota say. Many of the drugs are older products that treat fairly rare, but often serious or even life-threatening, conditions.

Among the examples: Questcor Pharmaceuticals last August raised the wholesale price on Acthar, which treats spasms in babies, from about $1,650 a vial to more than $23,000. Ovation raised the cost of Cosmegen, which treats a type of tumor, from $16.79 to $593.75 in January 2006.

The average wholesale price of 26 brand-name drugs jumped 100% or more in a single cost adjustment last year, up from 15 in 2004, the university study found. In the first half of this year, 17 drugs made the list.

"This does drive up the price of health care," says Alan Goldbloom, president of Children's Hospitals and Clinics of Minnesota. "Hospitals are either eating the cost or passing it along to insurers, so you and I are paying it in increased premiums."

Some of the drugs are administered in hospitals, which bill insurers, patients or government programs for them. Insured patients pay either a flat dollar amount, such as $20, or a percentage of the drug's cost.

Last year, prices rose about 7.4% on average for 1,344 brand-name drugs, according to Express Scripts, which manages drug benefits for large employers and insurers.

Reasons for the larger increases are varied, researchers say.

"There's no simple explanation," says Stephen Schondelmeyer, director of the PRIME Institute at the University of Minnesota, which studies drug industry economics. "Some companies seem to figure no one is watching so they can get away with it."

The price increases are drawing legal and political scrutiny:

? In a decision awaiting approval by the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, drugmaker Abbott agreed last week to pay up to $27.5 million to settle a lawsuit over a 400% price increase on its HIV/AIDS drug Norvir. The price did not change.

? Sen. Amy Klobuchar, D-Minn., and Sen. Charles Schumer, D-N.Y., asked the Government Accountability Office last week to investigate large price hikes. Klobuchar asked the Federal Trade Commission in April to investigate Ovation Pharmaceuticals, which raised prices on four drugs in 2006 by up to 3,437%.

Drug companies say the price hikes cover the costs of keeping the drugs on the market. They say the drugs are often less costly than alternative treatments, such as surgery or newer, high-tech medicines.

Questcor says on its website that it had to raise Acthar's price after struggling for years to "keep (it) financially viable."

Ovation says it needed to cover its 2005 purchase of the drugs and facility upgrades. "We feel we made an important investment in keeping these older products alive," says spokeswoman Sally Benjamin Young.

EXAMPLES OF RISING DRUG PRICES

Researchers found a growing number of drugs with one-time price increases of 100% or more. Some examples based on average wholesale prices:

Drug Condition Company Price before Price after % increase

Cosmegen Wilms' tumor Ovation $16.79 $593.75 3,436%

Indocin IV Heart problem in premature babies Ovation $136.10 $1,875 1,278%

Acthar Infantile spasms Questcor $1,650 $23,269 1,310%

Source: Joint Economic Committee from data analyzed by the PRIME Institute at the University of Minnesota
 

marine

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You like to B*tch and complain about people who are trying to point out who the people to hate are. And in doing so you defend them and make things worse. Along with getting out of Iraq Big Oil and the Medical Industry must be kicked down a notch or two before this country can get back on it's feet.

Newsflash: Energy/Oil companies do not set the price of oil.

There is zero sense in whining about how Exxon and company is raping the american wallet when they are not the ones doing it.
 

marine

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Take a look at the spike in oil for the last 18 months and what it has done to the Stock Market.

So you're telling me that over the course of the last 100 years or so when we have been using oil religiously to grow the country... only the past 18 months are supposed to be looked at?

Golly, you'd think there are other contributors much more prominent to the decline of the american's family ability to buy more than they can afford if you're looking at just 18 months out of 100+years.

Does the phrase "you're barking up the wrong tree" have any meaning to you?
 

StevieD

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Newsflash: Energy/Oil companies do not set the price of oil.

There is zero sense in whining about how Exxon and company is raping the american wallet when they are not the ones doing it.

You know it's great Karl Rove trick to call everybody who tried to point out a problem as crying. It's not crying it is demanding action from our do nothing congress. But if oil companies don't set the price then why don't one of them, just one, decide to sell it for less and they will get all the customers?:shrug:
 

Chadman

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marine, your points are pretty relevant, however, do you think the oil companies needed the incentives and tax breaks they were given directly thanks to ties to this administration? Do you think these policies were the most important agenda item for the new Bush administration and should have been the first issues they made sure were pushed through after taking office? Do you think that is a mere coincidence?

I don't blanketly blame the U.S. oil companies for the price of oil, nor say they should not be able to conduct business as they see fit, or make profits on their product. But they do share some of the blame, and they certainly have done a lot to control the ethanol market and price - and been given financial benefits from us along the way.

I think much - perhaps most - of the blame for the rise in price over the past few years lies with this administration and the people they put in positions in power to affect the value of the dollar. Not to mention conservative legislators and this administration who worked hard to keep oil speculators from being regulated and controlled in any fashion, who have been running wild the past couple of years. And needless to say, the war in Iraq has caused demand to rise simply due to all the oil and gas our military uses on a daily basis that would not be used otherwise. Which, of course, we as taxpayers also pay for - a double whammy.
 

StevieD

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marine, your points are pretty relevant, however, do you think the oil companies needed the incentives and tax breaks they were given directly thanks to ties to this administration? Do you think these policies were the most important agenda item for the new Bush administration and should have been the first issues they made sure were pushed through after taking office? Do you think that is a mere coincidence?

I don't blanketly blame the U.S. oil companies for the price of oil, nor say they should not be able to conduct business as they see fit, or make profits on their product. But they do share some of the blame, and they certainly have done a lot to control the ethanol market and price - and been given financial benefits from us along the way.

I think much - perhaps most - of the blame for the rise in price over the past few years lies with this administration and the people they put in positions in power to affect the value of the dollar. Not to mention conservative legislators and this administration who worked hard to keep oil speculators from being regulated and controlled in any fashion, who have been running wild the past couple of years. And needless to say, the war in Iraq has caused demand to rise simply due to all the oil and gas our military uses on a daily basis that would not be used otherwise. Which, of course, we as taxpayers also pay for - a double whammy.


Chad, you are assuming that there is not collusion and that the biggest oil speculators aren't the oil companies themselves.
 

marine

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Chad, you are assuming that there is not collusion and that the biggest oil speculators aren't the oil companies themselves.

yea.. uhhmmm.. i'll throw out there that uhhmm maybe it was exxon behind 9/11 after all this time? i mean, what better way to boost revenue and profits right?
 

djv

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I don't believe you can use %%'s when talking end dollars. Exxon made over 13 billion in one qt. Some drug company is mention here as making 27%. How much cash.
 
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