CAP AND TRADE

DOGS THAT BARK

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"the chances of 15% unemployment and a potential total collapse of our economy because of the unsustainability of all these big government programs in such a short period are real possibilities as long as these morons remain in power..."

:mj07:

weasel, everyone on this board understands that you do not work, and have not for a long time. But if you did, and were in business, you would understand how completely retarded this statment is.

Hmm We dummys thought Gumby was retarted when he said if they rushed through the stimulus unemployment would never reach 8% in 09--yet believe the dummys projections of 10% by july are right on--

Once again we have rhetoric vs results --your a glutton for punishment jabbers :)
 

Trampled Underfoot

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Hmm We dummys thought Gumby was retarted when he said if they rushed through the stimulus unemployment would never reach 8% in 09--yet believe the dummys projections of 10% by july are right on--

Once again we have rhetoric vs results --your a glutton for punishment jabbers :)

....and whom is to blame for the economy?
 

DOGS THAT BARK

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....and whom is to blame for the economy?

I think there is enough to go around for both sides--and would be lengthy list.

The thing that concerns me is it could get much worse--Appears economy is far behind his other agenda's right now--He's got 4 years why try and cram everything through in 6 months--as Emmanual said--never let a crisis go to waste.

If he had all these methods to cut cost on healthcare--fine lets see them without Obama care. If he wants to experiment on gov care--let him work on the existing gov nightmares Medicare/medicade.

if they want to have wind and solar energy--I'll be 1st to sign up if they can make them cost efficient--and not by purposely inflating cost of alternatives--

I wonder why no one is trying to fix existing bankrupt gov programs but instead push for more-and why the extreme rush?

For what its worth--I think he was on right track with the spend as go--but evidently he meant that as a joke.

Some odd things happening around the world TU --while some are loading up with natural resources and gold--we are loading up with debt.
Their cost of manufacturing will be greatly reduced-ours will be increased--and we weren't on the good side of import/export balance before. When we can't be competative our comapanies will move where they can be.

One example--if Obama taxes the refiners as anticipated--it will be in their interest to move offshore and ship end product (gasoline) here.
Not only do we lose thousands of jobs--but we invaribly import more which greenie agenda was suppose to curtail.
I think there is less than 40% chance of bill getting through senate--but if it would by chance -one best lie low till it gets repealed in future .
 

Jabberwocky

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Hmm We dummys thought Gumby was retarted when he said if they rushed through the stimulus unemployment would never reach 8% in 09--yet believe the dummys projections of 10% by july are right on--

Once again we have rhetoric vs results --your a glutton for punishment jabbers :)

"your a glutton"

speak fucking english.

Wayne, on a side note, I want to find a way to make it to the golf outing. If I do I look forward to seeing you and your wife.
 

Trench

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If he had all these methods to cut cost on healthcare--fine lets see them without Obama care. If he wants to experiment on gov care--let him work on the existing gov nightmares Medicare/medicade.

I'd like to hear your theory on how Medicare/Medicaid can be fixed without getting costs under control. And how do you get costs under control as long as Healthcare is, first and foremost, a for-profit industry?

Perhaps this is what every other industrialized nation has figured out. The rest of the world seems to know the only reason the U.S. doesn't already have Universal Healthcare is because it's been defeated by special interests -- Big Insurance, the AMA, HMO's, PPO's, etc. But it's coming. Because it's the only way to prevent a profit-driven healthcare system from devouring an economy. If there's another way, I'd like to hear it.
 

Trench

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if they want to have wind and solar energy--I'll be 1st to sign up if they can make them cost efficient--and not by purposely inflating cost of alternatives--
"Purposely inflating the cost of alternatives"? No idea what you mean by that.

The cards have been stacked against the wind and solar industries for more than two decades. Big Oil has successfully lobbied, bought and payed for politicians who've repeatedly and systematically defeated bills to provide tax and investment credits and incentives for the wind and solar industries. All they need to succeed is a level playing field.
 

DOGS THAT BARK

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"your a glutton"

speak fucking english.

Wayne, on a side note, I want to find a way to make it to the golf outing. If I do I look forward to seeing you and your wife.

Hope you can make it too--1st rd on me.

to answer your questions Trench--

"I'd like to hear your theory on how Medicare/Medicaid can be fixed without getting costs under control."

How about for starters
--cut spending as he promised --instead of increasing entitlement programs--medicade-food stamps--unemploment benefits etc with "stimulus funds"
--then he might want to work on the # of people qualifying for them--instead of providing sancuary cities and benefits for illegals.

your next question-
--"Purposely inflating the cost of alternatives"

As I said I love idea of wind- solar-hydrogen or any renewable fual. The only prob despite billions of investment by privite enterprise they have never been able to make them cost efficient. Would cost much more for solar power than gas or electric. How do they get around this objection. With the carbon tax--adding cost to energy companies using coal-oil or gas tax which in turn is past on as added cost to consumers which the more they tax the higher the cost--until regular utilitie cost raise to meet cost of solar/wind etc.
conclusion--rather than search for way to bring down cost of alternate to be competative with those we have--they do reverse and raise cost of existing up to cost of alternative.
 

layinwood

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Amazing, only three sentences after the one you selected from the WSJ article is this:

"A closer look at the CBO analysis finds that it contains so many caveats as to render it useless."

:00x32


:mj07: :mj07: Bohica, I noticed there was no response to your post.
 

Trench

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to answer your questions Trench--

How about for starters
--cut spending as he promised --instead of increasing entitlement programs--medicade-food stamps--unemploment benefits etc with "stimulus funds"
Gotta a simple question for you and Weezil...

If privatized healthcare is so efficient and Medicare/Medicaid are so inefficient, why do the administrative costs of privatized healthcare, on average, account for 14% of their total cost, while the administrative costs of Medicare/Medicaid only represent 3% of the total cost of those programs?
 

maverick2112

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Carbon Credits: A Scam
Ok, I don't usually wade into the entire "global warming" schism on this board, preferring to write about it on Musings instead.

But this is going to hit the economy, and as such I'm compelled to do so.

You have to be living under a rock to not know that The House passed an "energy bill" late Friday that includes what amounts to a carbon tax via so-called "cap and trade."

Let's first define what this is - "Cap and Trade" is a taxation system when what you do (commercially) that causes carbon dioxide to be emitted into the atmosphere is subject to tax, as a disincentive to do so.

The justification for this, as Krugman (and others) claim, is:

And as I watched the deniers make their arguments, I couldn?t help thinking that I was watching a form of treason ? treason against the planet.

To fully appreciate the irresponsibility and immorality of climate-change denial, you need to know about the grim turn taken by the latest climate research.

To read the rest of Paul's screed you have to be ignorant of basic mathematics. Not calculus, not differential equations, not even geometry or trig.

Math. Fifth-grade stuff. You know, grade-school - specifically, percentages.

Let's assume for the sake of argument that the "global warming" folks are right. I am not sold, but for the purpose of this discussion I'll grant the hypothesis that man is causing the planet to get warmer as a consequence of his emission of CO2 (sequestered millions of years ago into the earth's crust and elsewhere) into the atmosphere.

Here's the problem: North America has about 330 million people in it, most of them in The United States. That's a lot of people.

But Asia has 4 billion people living in it, or more than 10 times as many. And unfortunately most of them are living at a vastly inferior standard of living compared to ours. Africa has about 970 million people (three times North America), and again, nearly all are living vastly below our standard of living.

We're 1/15th of the population in question and nearly all of the rest of the people involved are going to dramatically increase their per-capita CO2 output whether we like it or not.

Herein lies the problem: While we emit more CO2 per-capita than anyone else today, we won't be emitting the most CO2 for very long on an aggregate basis.

To actually stop the increase in CO2 emissions we would have to find some way to compel the Asians and Africans to not increase their CO2 emissions.

But all possible means for them to improve their standard of living inherently involve significant and even dramatic increases in CO2 emissions per-capita.

The math is simple: Within a few years China will emit more CO2 than we will. A few years after that both Africa and India will surpass the United States. None of these regions will agree to stop emitting CO2 because to do so is to agree to keep their people perpetually poor and agrarian while we enjoy the fruits of a westernized, industrialized economy.

That's not going to happen and yet without it happening no amount of bleating about "climate change" or laws passed to curtail our CO2 output will do a thing for the climate of the planet. It will not make any material difference to the outcome; indeed, oil companies have said that they will simply move refining and other operations to nations without such pacts (like India and China!) to avoid the tax, and pass through any impact in the US directly to consumers.

The amount of CO2 emitted will not go down, but your costs will go up, making the only net effect economic: you will be poorer and whatever man-made effect exists on the climate will continue to exist.

If we were truly interested in the welfare of the planet we would recognize that short of thermonuclear war developing nations are not going to agree to stop developing. We would thus divert our attention toward dealing with the changes that come with our planet's climate, whether it is in fact warming due to our activity or whether the changes in climate are more mundane (read: due to the sun.) We would thus deploy our money where it could actually do some good, such as flood control and population relocation, along with modifying farming and other production resources to be able to suit changing climactic conditions.

Instead we have so-called "economists" like Krugman who are incapable of doing basic 5th grade math resorting to emotional pleas to try to guilt us into ignoring the basic mathematical facts: this bill will do nothing to address any actual problem and can't, simply because the lions share of the people on the planet will not agree to go along with any plan we might formulate - and this assumes the "global warming" crowd is right.

from Karl Denninger's Market Ticker

Makes a lot of sense...............
 

layinwood

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Gotta a simple question for you and Weezil...

If privatized healthcare is so efficient and Medicare/Medicaid are so inefficient, why do the administrative costs of privatized healthcare, on average, account for 14% of their total cost, while the administrative costs of Medicare/Medicaid only represent 3% of the total cost of those programs?

TF, I have no clue what you do for a living but I can tell you I deal with people and office every single day that work on the reimbursement side of medical. My wife is a manager for a large group here in Dallas and before that worked on the business side of medical. Without seeing a breakdown there's really no way to argue about why ones admin cost are higher than the other(you should know that). What I can tell you is that the Medicaid program is a complete joke. Most physicians won't take medicaid patients anymore because they simply don't get paid enough or on time. When I say what they get paid is low, I think you would be very suprised. I'll give you some codes for basic office visits if you would like and you can see what the docs gets paid back. You add to it that it takes 6 to 9 months to get that and it's simply just not worth it.(literally) I find it funny that guys in here pull out stats when they truely don't know the system and how it works.

I should say, I'm not a pro insurance guy because I think they have some major faults but they are quite a bit better than medicaid and medicare.
 

gardenweasel

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I'd like to hear your theory on how Medicare/Medicaid can be fixed without getting costs under control. And how do you get costs under control as long as Healthcare is, first and foremost, a for-profit industry?

Perhaps this is what every other industrialized nation has figured out. The rest of the world seems to know the only reason the U.S. doesn't already have Universal Healthcare is because it's been defeated by special interests -- Big Insurance, the AMA, HMO's, PPO's, etc. But it's coming. Because it's the only way to prevent a profit-driven healthcare system from devouring an economy. If there's another way, I'd like to hear it.

don`t you ever wonder why all these nations with universal healthcare have so many citizens coming to the u.s. for prodedures,treatment and operations?.....


duh!?

he doesn`t want to adjust the system for those without insurance...he wants to overhaul and ruin the private insurance that the majority of americans have and are happy with...

and a question or two while i`m here....

1)why is bock refusing to address one of the major reasons for the cost of healthcare in america?(malpractice lawsuits)...

2)why are "unions" exempt from paying taxes on their medical insurance premiums in the obama plan being floated around?...to the exclusion of every other citizen?..this is another way in which this socialist administration is using it`s power to bully employees into unions...unions that have pretty much destroyed so many industries in this country already... a manner of intimidating like the nixing of private voting...

it`s obvious answer is it`s payback for political donors...and it`s shameful/shameless...the media won`t even address these issues...
 
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ferdville

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Death resulting from cancer, as one example, double digit higher percentage in places with "government run" medical care.
 

DOGS THAT BARK

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Gotta a simple question for you and Weezil...

If privatized healthcare is so efficient and Medicare/Medicaid are so inefficient, why do the administrative costs of privatized healthcare, on average, account for 14% of their total cost, while the administrative costs of Medicare/Medicaid only represent 3% of the total cost of those programs?

Don't know if anyone stated Privite was efficient--would be curious where you got your #'s though.

i use more of common sense approach

--what social plan has gov ran efficiently?
--everyone is adding to deficit-expending--and I'm paying for it along with my privite insurance via taxes,

Privite insurance is not being added to deficit nor costing those other than who have or provide it.
It is indeed a pay as you go entity--
Personally I'd like to see gov ran like ins co and have balance their books--
--and back to common sense issue

--Who are the most guilty--the gov for trying to make us believe after running current social progams to trillions of debt-they now can run one correctly--or those who are biting on the rhetoric once again.

When O is telling you all those people that don't have insurance he's not telling you how many don't take it because they don't want it--nor does he tell you how many million of illegals are included in his #'s.
He also don't tell you bout the ones that sit in the bars pay their nightly tabs and complain how they can't afford it.
 

ferdville

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Who wouldn't want government to run their health insurance program??? After all they have such a marvelous record of success running other programs regardless of who is president. And those who have Medicaid or here in Cali MediCal usually have supplementary policies because coverage is so poor.
 
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