Answer the questions Holder!

kosar

Centrist
Forum Member
Nov 27, 1999
11,112
55
0
ft myers, fl
:toast: Exactly

As ridiculous and probably politically damaging that it would be, if they want to bring him to NY, they should have the balls to say some nonsense like 'The American way is that everyone is entitled to a fair trial' and leave it at that.

Otherwise, they should shut the fuck up and deal with him at Gitmo.

Now Obama is saying stuff along the lines of 'if there is an attack in NY during the trial or if KM is aquitted (will never happen, but still), then I am responsible.'

While true, it's an incredibly politically tone deaf type of comment that he's mostly avoided so far.
 

Chadman

Realist
Forum Member
Apr 2, 2000
7,501
42
48
SW Missouri
example please :0corn

Here you go, Wayne - It's been talked about in several discussions online and on news channels. I posted the entire article from the Washington Post - which also addresses some of the points and concerns elsewhere in this thread:

Holder's reasonable decision

By Jim Comey and Jack Goldsmith
Friday, November 20, 2009

Reasonable minds can disagree about Attorney General Eric Holder's decision to prosecute Khalid Sheik Mohammed and four other alleged Sept. 11 perpetrators in a Manhattan federal court. But some prominent criticisms are exaggerated, and others place undue faith in military commissions as an alternative to civilian trials.

Mohammed is many things: an enemy combatant in a war against the United States whom the government can detain without trial until the conflict ends; a war criminal subject to trial by military commission under the laws of war; and someone answerable in federal court for violations of the U.S. criminal code. Which system he is placed in for purposes of incapacitation and justice involves complex legal and political trade-offs.

A trial in Manhattan will bring enormous media attention and require unprecedented security. But it is unlikely to make New York a bigger target than it has been since February 1993, when Mohammed's nephew Ramzi Yousef attacked the World Trade Center. If al-Qaeda could carry out another attack in New York, it would -- a fact true a week ago and for a long time. Its inability to do so is a testament to our military, intelligence and law enforcement responses since the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks.

In deciding to use federal court, the attorney general probably considered the record of the military commission system that was established in November 2001. This system secured three convictions in eight years. The only person who had a full commission trial, Osama bin Laden's driver, received five additional months in prison, resulting in a sentence that was shorter than he probably would have received from a federal judge.

One reason commissions have not worked well is that changes in constitutional, international and military laws since they were last used, during World War II, have produced great uncertainty about the commissions' validity. This uncertainty has led to many legal challenges that will continue indefinitely -- hardly an ideal situation for the trial of the century.

By contrast, there is no question about the legitimacy of U.S. federal courts to incapacitate terrorists. Many of Holder's critics appear to have forgotten that the Bush administration used civilian courts to put away dozens of terrorists, including "shoe bomber" Richard Reid; al-Qaeda agent Jose Padilla; "American Taliban" John Walker Lindh; the Lackawanna Six; and Zacarias Moussaoui, who was prosecuted for the same conspiracy for which Mohammed is likely to be charged. Many of these terrorists are locked in a supermax prison in Colorado, never to be seen again.


In terrorist trials over the past 15 years, federal prosecutors and judges have gained extensive experience protecting intelligence sources and methods, limiting a defendant's ability to raise irrelevant issues and tightly controlling the courtroom. Moussaoui's trial was challenging because his request for access to terrorists held at "black" sites had to be litigated. Difficulties also arose because Moussaoui acted as his own lawyer, and the judge labored to control him. But it is difficult to imagine a military commission of rudimentary fairness that would not allow a defendant a similar right to represent himself and speak out in court.

In either trial forum, defendants will make an issue of how they were treated and attempt to undermine the trial politically. These efforts are likely to have more traction in a military than a civilian court. No matter how scrupulously fair the commissions are, defendants will criticize their relatively loose rules of evidence, their absence of a civilian jury and their restrictions on the ability to examine classified evidence used against them. Some say it is wrong to give Mohammed trial rights ordinarily conferred on Americans, but a benefit of civilian trials over commissions is that they make it harder for defendants to complain about kangaroo courts or victor's justice.

The potential procedural advantages of military commission trials are relatively unimportant with obviously guilty defendants such as Mohammed, but they help explain the attorney general's related decision last week to consign five men accused of attacking the USS Cole to a military commission. Holder indicated that he was doing so in part because the Cole was a military target outside the United States, but that reason does not hold up. The Pentagon was a military target, many aspects of the Sept. 11 attacks were planned abroad, and the Cole attack is already the subject of a federal indictment in New York.

It is more likely that Holder decided to use a commission system still learning to walk because the Cole case is relatively weak and will benefit from the marginal advantages the commission system offers the government. It is also likely that the Justice Department will decide that many other terrorists at Guantanamo Bay will not be tried in civilian or military court but, rather, will be held under a military detention rationale more suitable to the circumstances of their cases.

These decisions have already invited charges of opportunistic forum shopping. The Bush administration, criticized on similar grounds, properly explained that it would use whatever lawful tool worked best, all things considered, to incapacitate a particular terrorist. Holder's decisions appear to reflect a similarly pragmatic approach.

Of course, the attorney general made a different call on Mohammed than did the Bush administration. The wisdom of that difficult judgment will be determined by future events. But Holder's critics do not help their case by understating the criminal justice system's capacities, overstating the military system's virtues and bumper-stickering a reasonable decision.

? Jim Comey, a deputy attorney general and U.S. attorney in Manhattan during the Bush administration, is general counsel of Lockheed Martin Corp. Jack Goldsmith, an assistant attorney general during the Bush administration, teaches at Harvard Law School and is on the Hoover Institution's Task Force on National Security and Law.
 

hedgehog

Registered
Forum Member
Oct 30, 2003
32,735
618
113
49
TX
THESE terrorists dont even deserve a trial, they deserve to be shot at point blank range and save us millions of wasted taxpayer money. this is what the terrorists want, is to be showcased on national tv so we have sympathy for them, poor me, its Bushes fault, blah, blah, blah...they should be tried in Gitmo and then executed the same day, why are these terrorists still alive after 8 years has gone by and all the pain and suffering we have gone through as a nation, these people are still breathing and now they have miranda rights, wtf is wrong in this country? Bin Laden to have miranda rights according to Eric Holder, what a joke.:sadwave:
 

Skulnik

Truth Teller
Forum Member
Mar 30, 2007
20,922
125
0
Jefferson City, Missouri
THESE terrorists dont even deserve a trial, they deserve to be shot at point blank range and save us millions of wasted taxpayer money. this is what the terrorists want, is to be showcased on national tv so we have sympathy for them, poor me, its Bushes fault, blah, blah, blah...they should be tried in Gitmo and then executed the same day, why are these terrorists still alive after 8 years has gone by and all the pain and suffering we have gone through as a nation, these people are still breathing and now they have miranda rights, wtf is wrong in this country? Bin Laden to have miranda rights according to Eric Holder, what a joke.:sadwave:

If not for the ACLU, Bush could have taken care of this problem, BLEEDING HEART LIBERALS screwed it all up.
 

Chadman

Realist
Forum Member
Apr 2, 2000
7,501
42
48
SW Missouri
Actually, Hedge, it was Graham that pointed that out specifically, about the Miranda rights. And the other issue here, as to why these guys haven't been brought to trial anywhere yet, is that many of them have not been proven to have been a part of any terroristic activity - they haven't even had the proof to hold them, much less prosecute them. Some have, I'm sure, but many haven't - and that has been proven.

Kind of a sticky wicket, isn't it? Putting people to death when you don't even have solid proof they are terrorists, even enough to prove they should be held?

I hope these guys are roasted, if they are actual terrorists. And, it shouldn't be hard to prove, if they actually are.
 

Trampled Underfoot

Registered
Forum Member
Feb 26, 2001
13,593
164
63
Kind of a sticky wicket, isn't it? Putting people to death when you don't even have solid proof they are terrorists, even enough to prove they should be held?

I think Hedgy is a terrorist. Lets just sentence him without a trial. He seems to be okay with that.
 

DOGS THAT BARK

Registered User
Forum Member
Jul 13, 1999
19,470
139
63
Bowling Green Ky
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
asnyone know how to get this commercial out of here--I can't see it when I try to edit it out- and deleted everything I cut and pasted but it remains :shrug: <SCRIPT type=text/javascript><!--//<![CDATA[ var m3_u = (location.protocol=='https:'?'https://ads.lycos.com/ajs.php':'http://ads.lycos.com/ajs.php'); var m3_r = Math.floor(Math.random()*99999999999); if (!document.MAX_used) document.MAX_used = ','; document.write ("<scr"+"ipt type='text/javascript' src=""+m3_u); document.write ("?zoneid=111"); document.write ("&cb=' + m3_r); if (document.MAX_used != ',') document.write ("&exclude=" + document.MAX_used); document.write (document.charset ? '&charset='+document.charset : (document.characterSet ? '&charset='+document.characterSet : '')); document.write ("&loc=" + escape(window.location)); if (document.referrer) document.write ("&referer=" + escape(document.referrer)); if (document.context) document.write ("&context=" + escape(document.context)); if (document.mmm_fo) document.write ("&mmm_fo=1"); document.write ("'><\/scr"+"ipt>");//]]>--></SCRIPT><SCRIPT src="http://ads.lycos.com/ajs.php?zoneid=111&cb=58169886963&charset=windows-1252&loc=http%3A//www.angelfire.com/ca3/jphuck/Book6Ch.8.html&referer=http%3A//search.yahoo.com/search%3B_ylt%3DA0oGki1hDwdLujYAT5RXNyoA%3Fp%3DDid+Zacarias+Moussaoui+Richard+Reid+get++miranda+rights%26fr2%3Dsb-top%26fr%3Dmy-myy%26sao%3D1" type=text/javascript></SCRIPT>
 
Last edited:

THE KOD

Registered
Forum Member
Nov 16, 2001
42,496
260
83
Victory Lane
Actually, Hedge, it was Graham that pointed that out specifically, about the Miranda rights. And the other issue here, as to why these guys haven't been brought to trial anywhere yet, is that many of them have not been proven to have been a part of any terroristic activity - they haven't even had the proof to hold them, much less prosecute them. Some have, I'm sure, but many haven't - and that has been proven.

Kind of a sticky wicket, isn't it? Putting people to death when you don't even have solid proof they are terrorists, even enough to prove they should be held?

I hope these guys are roasted, if they are actual terrorists. And, it shouldn't be hard to prove, if they actually are.

...........................................................

I smell a big shitstorm a brewing

never know about these things really

we have no clue as to what is really going on

at least not yet.
 

THE KOD

Registered
Forum Member
Nov 16, 2001
42,496
260
83
Victory Lane
If not for the ACLU, Bush could have taken care of this problem, BLEEDING HEART LIBERALS screwed it all up.

.....................................................

yeh may need the shit waders to cross this river

hey skul

I noticed when I wrote

skunk stink

It made me think of Skulnik

how did you get to that ?
 

Chadman

Realist
Forum Member
Apr 2, 2000
7,501
42
48
SW Missouri
No problem, Wayne. The reason I brought it up was partially due to MN Senator Klobuchar bringing it up the other day after Holder's testimony. I did a little checking, to make sure she wasn't just blowing liberal smoke. And she wasn't, I guess.

I do want to say that this whole thing does concern me, I certainly hope if these people are guilty that they do not get off on a technicality, or some such problem. However, I think that in the truest sense, if you believe in this country, and what we stand for, and perhaps most importantly, what we preach and try to spread to other countries, it's something we need to do.

I do think Graham had some valid points/concerns. And I think he was a pretty prominent attorney in his own right, so he probably has a good handle on procedure and repercussion scenarios. Of course, he is politically motivated to make a big deal about it, too. And I do think whatever happens, it will fall at the feet of Holder, and he is taking full responsibility for making the decisions, as far as I can see.
 

DOGS THAT BARK

Registered User
Forum Member
Jul 13, 1999
19,470
139
63
Bowling Green Ky
I hope you got to read most of it before I deleted it--Damn ad won't come out and didn't even see it on page.

Again thanks for post--I hope if they do try them here they do like GW did as enemy combatants and no civil liberties--I not sure if they can though.
 

THE KOD

Registered
Forum Member
Nov 16, 2001
42,496
260
83
Victory Lane
I hope you got to read most of it before I deleted it--Damn ad won't come out and didn't even see it on page.

Again thanks for post--I hope if they do try them here they do like GW did as enemy combatants and no civil liberties--I not sure if they can though.

...........................................................

oh shit DTB

now your worried.

your black gumby dammit
 

DOGS THAT BARK

Registered User
Forum Member
Jul 13, 1999
19,470
139
63
Bowling Green Ky
...........................................................

oh shit DTB

now your worried.

your black gumby dammit

Appears I'm going to have to check some of the media for plagerism :)


http://231now.ning.com/profiles/blogs/gumby-goes-to-war
GUMBY GOES TO WAR
Obamacircle1.jpg
 
Last edited:
Bet on MyBookie
Top