Reported yesterday that 60% of the material in our smart bombs come from China. And 15% of our brand new stealth fighter comes form China. Lou Dobbs thinks we have for got this is still Communist China. Not a real buddy. Just another sign were selling our soul to Asia. Funny how it's OK for our American companies to do these things and no one seems to give a chit. But ask questions why were in Iraq. Or why our government does not stop flow of job out of the country. And your bad people. moon1
60% From China
- Thread starter djv
- Start date
Definitely a double standard. We use human rights and democracy as one of our reasons for not doing business with Saddam and eventually for invading Iraq.
If that's so important, then why is Wal-Mart the 7th biggest trading partner with China. ....if Wal-Mart were it's own nation, that is.
24,000 miners die every year in China from accidents and mine-related illness. Twenty-four thousand!! Can you imagine that kind of number here?! But we have no problem taking advantage of the cheap jade and other semi-precious stones that come from there.
Personally, I think we should deal with everyone. Slowly, conditions will improve. I just hate the hypocracy we have when we justify war with one country while getting companies fat with another.
If that's so important, then why is Wal-Mart the 7th biggest trading partner with China. ....if Wal-Mart were it's own nation, that is.
24,000 miners die every year in China from accidents and mine-related illness. Twenty-four thousand!! Can you imagine that kind of number here?! But we have no problem taking advantage of the cheap jade and other semi-precious stones that come from there.
Personally, I think we should deal with everyone. Slowly, conditions will improve. I just hate the hypocracy we have when we justify war with one country while getting companies fat with another.
Want extremely interesting read on China---While there are numerous links on this I'm going to give you one from a very conservative writer--my reason is he has links to supporting evidence throughout.
Amazing Ron Brown and a the chinese counterpart died in accidents within same time frame that investigation hit--not that I'm a conspiracy buff but timing and coincidence of players makes the cogs grind--
If you have time and like good read --whether you agree or not you'll find this VERY interesting.
The Idiot's Guide to Chinagate
http://www.richardpoe.com/column.cgi?story=125&view=print
Amazing Ron Brown and a the chinese counterpart died in accidents within same time frame that investigation hit--not that I'm a conspiracy buff but timing and coincidence of players makes the cogs grind--
If you have time and like good read --whether you agree or not you'll find this VERY interesting.
The Idiot's Guide to Chinagate
http://www.richardpoe.com/column.cgi?story=125&view=print
DTB - What has Bush done any differently regarding China than Clinton? That article makes it sound like everything happened only during Clinton and now Bush struggles to fix his messes or something. It's just more one-sided garbage that doesn't resolve a damn thing. Really would like to see something that can point to solutions and the future rather than just more of your antiquated Clinton crusade.
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I was just answering DJV thread on where & WHEN they received technology. Little late for GW to do anything in way of threats now. Out of curiousity did you read article. Lots of pertainant info left out about China connections that fled country--or pleaded the 5th at inquisition--most were prior sleep overs at the whitehouse.
Makes one wonder how some want jail time for guy that dropped name of covert mother that hadn't been on assignment in 5 years-and over look something so important to national security.
Hell they are still trying covering Clintons ass--National Security Adviser Sandy Berger gets caught with pants down literally at blatant theft of confidential documents (which he never returns) and gets $10,000 fine--go figure.
Only solutions with China in future is I hope they are as non-aggressive as I think.
Politics aside the smoking guns in Chinagate are mind boggeling--can't believe someone hasn't made movie yet--it would be a good one even from non-political standpoint.
Makes one wonder how some want jail time for guy that dropped name of covert mother that hadn't been on assignment in 5 years-and over look something so important to national security.
Hell they are still trying covering Clintons ass--National Security Adviser Sandy Berger gets caught with pants down literally at blatant theft of confidential documents (which he never returns) and gets $10,000 fine--go figure.
Only solutions with China in future is I hope they are as non-aggressive as I think.
Politics aside the smoking guns in Chinagate are mind boggeling--can't believe someone hasn't made movie yet--it would be a good one even from non-political standpoint.
lol- now we'll add China to the list where it is Clinton's fault that they are a power. I guess it was only a matter of time before that 'came out.'
North Korea. Check
Iraq. Check (even though they were never a threat)
China. Check.
Iran. Check.
Man, it's amazing how much happened in those 8 years. Nothing happened in the 12 years prior and the 6 years since. For instance, we NEVER supported the Taliban who are using our own weapons against us or Iraq or sold weapons to Iran. We never invaded a country that had nothing to do with anything and was no threat to us. Nah, but i'm sure if those things did happen, it would have been under Clinton.
North Korea. Check
Iraq. Check (even though they were never a threat)
China. Check.
Iran. Check.
Man, it's amazing how much happened in those 8 years. Nothing happened in the 12 years prior and the 6 years since. For instance, we NEVER supported the Taliban who are using our own weapons against us or Iraq or sold weapons to Iran. We never invaded a country that had nothing to do with anything and was no threat to us. Nah, but i'm sure if those things did happen, it would have been under Clinton.
smurphy said:
You make some good points and I definitely agree about the double standard. Hopefully the conditions will improve for their workers, but that would come out of their bottom line and they'd probably rather have the $$ than better working conditions. 24,000 is probably just a drop in the bucket for them.
kosar said:
Bill did all of that while getting laid 24/7. Talk about multi-tasking. LOL I don't know if Chuck Norris could even top that!
CHINA only wants to be king of Asia. Bush wants the world. That will cause problems. Anyone wonder why India wanted the bomb. They were way ahead on China even ahead of Nixon. Yes Nixon our gate opener. The thing that puzzles so many is our companies just keep giving America away. Why? A couple extra bucks on there stock price.
"CHINA only wants to be king of Asia. Bush wants the world"......
bush is trying to keep the monsters from putting a dirty bomb up your ass...and using half the world`s oil supply for blackmail and other nefarious purposes...
bush is gone in 2008..the republicans may well fall out of favor......could you have said that about saddam?...can you say it about kim jong il,the mullahs in iran, the communist party in china?
think...
kosar...we also supported stalin in ww2...was that also wrong?....some of our strongest allies now, were part of the old soviet union...
that`s a straw man...allegiances are ever changing...it`s been that way throughout history...
bush is trying to keep the monsters from putting a dirty bomb up your ass...and using half the world`s oil supply for blackmail and other nefarious purposes...
bush is gone in 2008..the republicans may well fall out of favor......could you have said that about saddam?...can you say it about kim jong il,the mullahs in iran, the communist party in china?
think...
kosar...we also supported stalin in ww2...was that also wrong?....some of our strongest allies now, were part of the old soviet union...
that`s a straw man...allegiances are ever changing...it`s been that way throughout history...
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any comments on Chinagate in particular Matt--or just the general "yea blame it on Clinton" retort???
I know Clinton appointing Johnny Huang to department of Commerce and him pleading the 5th over 2000 times when questioned if he was working as a spy for Chinese intelligence is what just more coincidences--correct?
? 2000 WorldNetDaily.com
Wen Ho Lee is charged with removing classified material from a secure area. Despite Lee's guilty plea to a widely public and much touted case, a former Clinton appointee connected to Al Gore has admitted to far worse and walked -- without being charged or even questioned.
In 1996, the former Commerce employee walked into a secure area, put classified files in a box, and then walked out the door. That former employee was Ira Sockowitz, then special general counsel at Commerce. Without authorization, he took 136 files, over 2,000 pages of highly classified materials, and simply walked away.
The Sockowitz files include secret reports on cryptography from the NSA, a secret report on Russia from the CIA, secret cables from France, secret documents on U.S.-Russian space launches, even materials on U.S. efforts to purchase weapon's grade uranium from Russia. Sockowitz also had the complete biographies on foreign political leaders in Bosnia, Croatia, India, Turkey, and Russia. The CIA deemed the material so secret that it tried to seize Sockowitz's files as soon as it learned what had happened.
The Sockowitz files were discovered only after an anonymous tip to the public-interest group Judicial Watch in October 1996. Judicial Watch then deposed Sockowitz, a former New York state administrative law judge. Sockowitz testified that he was an "advance person" for the 1992 Clinton-Gore campaign. He was put on the 1993 inaugural committee at the request of vice president AI Gore's office.
Gore's office also approved that Sockowitz be appointed as a Commerce Department special general counsel in November 1993. At the Commerce Department, Sockowitz worked with John Huang "vetting" companies that wished to travel with Ron Brown on trade trips.
John Huang is a central figure in the growing Chinagate scandal. In 1999, Huang pled guilty to illegal campaign donations to the 1996 Clinton-Gore campaign. Huang also cited his Fifth Amendment rights over 2,000 times when questioned if he was working as a spy for Chinese intelligence.
One such mission vetted by Sockowitz and Huang was the now infamous 1994 trip to China. According to Nolanda Hill the Clinton-Gore White House demanded the trip take place. Hill, a former business partner and close friend of the late Commerce Secretary Ron Brown, has testified that Brown was very nervous about the deals with China. One such deal included Loral and the Chinese army.
In 1994 Loral Corp. CEO Bernard Schwartz traveled to China with Ron Brown and Ira Sockowitz. Despite a failing memory on many other issues, during a Judicial Watch deposition Sockowitz claimed he did recall sitting next to Schwartz at a 1994 dinner in Beijing with Chinese officials. Sockowitz did not mention that one official sitting next to Schwartz was People's Liberation Army Lt. Gen. Shen Roujun.
In 1994, Lt. Gen. Shen, was second in command at COSTIND, the Chinese Commission for Science, Technology and Industry for National Defense. COSTIND, according to the Government Accounting Office "oversees development of China's weapon systems and is responsible for identifying and acquiring telecommunications technology applicable for military use."
In August 1994, Shen met and consummated a series of satellite deals with Schwartz and Loral. The Beijing meeting was requested by Schwartz, arranged by President Clinton and included Commerce Secretary Ron Brown. The technology obtained from Loral included advanced rocket guidance and encrypted satellite telemetry systems.
During 1994, Shen had time to visit the United States. During that visit, his son, Shen Jun, attended a business lunch with his father and Frank Taormina of Hughes. Taormina later assisted Shen Jun in obtaining a job at Hughes. Shen Jun was hired at Hughes in August of 1994 at the same time Schwartz was visiting with his father in Beijing. It was no coincidence that a division of Space Systems/Loral was also considering hiring Shen for a position that would have allowed him access to classified information.
During the August 1994 trade trip to China, Schwartz also met with Liu Ju-Yuan the minister of China Aerospace Corporation. China Aerospace makes both the civilian Long March rocket and the nuclear tipped CSS missile for the Second Artillery Corps of the Chinese army. Minister Liu is also the official boss of Chinese army Col. Liu Chao Ying. Chao contributed thousands of dollars to the DNC through convicted China-Gate figure Johnny Chung. Col. Liu's real boss, however, turned out to be Gen. Ji, the military intelligence director of the People's Liberation Army.
Schwartz lobbied hard to get satellite export controls moved from State to Commerce. He has given millions to Democrats since 1992, including recent large donations to Hillary Clinton's New York senate campaign. Schwartz has also succeeded in obtaining a space monopoly.
The bulk of the Sockowitz files contain information on a now-defunct U.S.-Chinese space venture called Iridium, a competitor of the Loral Globalstar project. Iridium was working with an international team of leading aerospace and electronic leaders in Russia and Red China to construct a worldwide satellite telecommunications network. In 1994, Loral and Schwartz were behind Iridium with his Globalstar project.
Motorola's Iridium included Russia's Ministry of Atomics, Khrunichev Space Research and Production Space Center in Balkonur, and the China Great Wall Industry Group, a company previously sanctioned for selling M-11 nuclear tipped missiles to Pakistan.
Created by Motorola in 1987, Iridium has direct ties to Ron Brown and the Democratic Party. Leo Mondale, a nephew of the former vice president, was vice president of strategic planning for Iridium. Mondale and Motorola executive Edward Staino hired four of Brown's former employees to run Iridium. All of them were former DNC fund-raisers, and all of them newly armed with high-level security clearances.
Motorola also hired former White House National Security Council member Dr. Richard Barth. Dr. Barth, according to now CIA Director George Tenet, was very important to the Clinton-Gore satellite export policy. Tenet served in the 1993 White House as a national security advisor to Clinton and Gore.
"Why are you leaving me?" Tenet asked Barth in a 1993 White House e-mail obtained using the Freedom of Information Act. "Do you want my job? my wife? My 1974 Camaro? This place will suck eggs without you to keep me sane."
Dr. Barth was hired in 1993 by Motorola as a lobbyist for the Iridium satellite system. "Barthman" was so important to the Clinton White House that he was allowed to come back as a paid contract adviser to the White House on the very same policy he was lobbying for Motorola. In 1994, Barth requested a waiver for Motorola to export encrypted Iridium satellite radio equipment, highly sought by the Chinese military, directly to the People's Republic of China.
"Such a waiver would not reduce NSA's (National Security Agency's) oversight over all encryption containing exports to China," noted Barth in the fax addressed to Tenet.
"Current controls remain, only the need to notify Congress of each sale is removed. We currently have about $100 million worth of two way radio business tied up by the lack of a waiver for China and face losing a market of about $500 million. ... Finally while we now are not yet applying for licenses for encrypted systems for satellite positioning, we may within months be applying for such licenses for our Iridium systems."
The Barthman story ends well with a 1995 "thank you" letter to Ron Brown from Motorola CEO Gary Tooker.
"I am writing to thank you and some key members of the Commerce Department for your assistance in obtaining the Presidential waiver for encryption export sales to China," wrote Tooker in a letter that he copied to Dr. Barth.
However, the Iridium story ends very badly. In 1998, the Iridium satellite phone consortium topped out at $61 a share. By late July 1999, the troubled space-phone project run by Motorola dropped to $6 a share. Nine months after its debut, Iridium went bankrupt. The space-based phone system is de-orbiting and destroying the chain of 66 operational satellites, leaving Loral's Globalstar system with a total monopoly in the market.
cont---
I know Clinton appointing Johnny Huang to department of Commerce and him pleading the 5th over 2000 times when questioned if he was working as a spy for Chinese intelligence is what just more coincidences--correct?
? 2000 WorldNetDaily.com
Wen Ho Lee is charged with removing classified material from a secure area. Despite Lee's guilty plea to a widely public and much touted case, a former Clinton appointee connected to Al Gore has admitted to far worse and walked -- without being charged or even questioned.
In 1996, the former Commerce employee walked into a secure area, put classified files in a box, and then walked out the door. That former employee was Ira Sockowitz, then special general counsel at Commerce. Without authorization, he took 136 files, over 2,000 pages of highly classified materials, and simply walked away.
The Sockowitz files include secret reports on cryptography from the NSA, a secret report on Russia from the CIA, secret cables from France, secret documents on U.S.-Russian space launches, even materials on U.S. efforts to purchase weapon's grade uranium from Russia. Sockowitz also had the complete biographies on foreign political leaders in Bosnia, Croatia, India, Turkey, and Russia. The CIA deemed the material so secret that it tried to seize Sockowitz's files as soon as it learned what had happened.
The Sockowitz files were discovered only after an anonymous tip to the public-interest group Judicial Watch in October 1996. Judicial Watch then deposed Sockowitz, a former New York state administrative law judge. Sockowitz testified that he was an "advance person" for the 1992 Clinton-Gore campaign. He was put on the 1993 inaugural committee at the request of vice president AI Gore's office.
Gore's office also approved that Sockowitz be appointed as a Commerce Department special general counsel in November 1993. At the Commerce Department, Sockowitz worked with John Huang "vetting" companies that wished to travel with Ron Brown on trade trips.
John Huang is a central figure in the growing Chinagate scandal. In 1999, Huang pled guilty to illegal campaign donations to the 1996 Clinton-Gore campaign. Huang also cited his Fifth Amendment rights over 2,000 times when questioned if he was working as a spy for Chinese intelligence.
One such mission vetted by Sockowitz and Huang was the now infamous 1994 trip to China. According to Nolanda Hill the Clinton-Gore White House demanded the trip take place. Hill, a former business partner and close friend of the late Commerce Secretary Ron Brown, has testified that Brown was very nervous about the deals with China. One such deal included Loral and the Chinese army.
In 1994 Loral Corp. CEO Bernard Schwartz traveled to China with Ron Brown and Ira Sockowitz. Despite a failing memory on many other issues, during a Judicial Watch deposition Sockowitz claimed he did recall sitting next to Schwartz at a 1994 dinner in Beijing with Chinese officials. Sockowitz did not mention that one official sitting next to Schwartz was People's Liberation Army Lt. Gen. Shen Roujun.
In 1994, Lt. Gen. Shen, was second in command at COSTIND, the Chinese Commission for Science, Technology and Industry for National Defense. COSTIND, according to the Government Accounting Office "oversees development of China's weapon systems and is responsible for identifying and acquiring telecommunications technology applicable for military use."
In August 1994, Shen met and consummated a series of satellite deals with Schwartz and Loral. The Beijing meeting was requested by Schwartz, arranged by President Clinton and included Commerce Secretary Ron Brown. The technology obtained from Loral included advanced rocket guidance and encrypted satellite telemetry systems.
During 1994, Shen had time to visit the United States. During that visit, his son, Shen Jun, attended a business lunch with his father and Frank Taormina of Hughes. Taormina later assisted Shen Jun in obtaining a job at Hughes. Shen Jun was hired at Hughes in August of 1994 at the same time Schwartz was visiting with his father in Beijing. It was no coincidence that a division of Space Systems/Loral was also considering hiring Shen for a position that would have allowed him access to classified information.
During the August 1994 trade trip to China, Schwartz also met with Liu Ju-Yuan the minister of China Aerospace Corporation. China Aerospace makes both the civilian Long March rocket and the nuclear tipped CSS missile for the Second Artillery Corps of the Chinese army. Minister Liu is also the official boss of Chinese army Col. Liu Chao Ying. Chao contributed thousands of dollars to the DNC through convicted China-Gate figure Johnny Chung. Col. Liu's real boss, however, turned out to be Gen. Ji, the military intelligence director of the People's Liberation Army.
Schwartz lobbied hard to get satellite export controls moved from State to Commerce. He has given millions to Democrats since 1992, including recent large donations to Hillary Clinton's New York senate campaign. Schwartz has also succeeded in obtaining a space monopoly.
The bulk of the Sockowitz files contain information on a now-defunct U.S.-Chinese space venture called Iridium, a competitor of the Loral Globalstar project. Iridium was working with an international team of leading aerospace and electronic leaders in Russia and Red China to construct a worldwide satellite telecommunications network. In 1994, Loral and Schwartz were behind Iridium with his Globalstar project.
Motorola's Iridium included Russia's Ministry of Atomics, Khrunichev Space Research and Production Space Center in Balkonur, and the China Great Wall Industry Group, a company previously sanctioned for selling M-11 nuclear tipped missiles to Pakistan.
Created by Motorola in 1987, Iridium has direct ties to Ron Brown and the Democratic Party. Leo Mondale, a nephew of the former vice president, was vice president of strategic planning for Iridium. Mondale and Motorola executive Edward Staino hired four of Brown's former employees to run Iridium. All of them were former DNC fund-raisers, and all of them newly armed with high-level security clearances.
Motorola also hired former White House National Security Council member Dr. Richard Barth. Dr. Barth, according to now CIA Director George Tenet, was very important to the Clinton-Gore satellite export policy. Tenet served in the 1993 White House as a national security advisor to Clinton and Gore.
"Why are you leaving me?" Tenet asked Barth in a 1993 White House e-mail obtained using the Freedom of Information Act. "Do you want my job? my wife? My 1974 Camaro? This place will suck eggs without you to keep me sane."
Dr. Barth was hired in 1993 by Motorola as a lobbyist for the Iridium satellite system. "Barthman" was so important to the Clinton White House that he was allowed to come back as a paid contract adviser to the White House on the very same policy he was lobbying for Motorola. In 1994, Barth requested a waiver for Motorola to export encrypted Iridium satellite radio equipment, highly sought by the Chinese military, directly to the People's Republic of China.
"Such a waiver would not reduce NSA's (National Security Agency's) oversight over all encryption containing exports to China," noted Barth in the fax addressed to Tenet.
"Current controls remain, only the need to notify Congress of each sale is removed. We currently have about $100 million worth of two way radio business tied up by the lack of a waiver for China and face losing a market of about $500 million. ... Finally while we now are not yet applying for licenses for encrypted systems for satellite positioning, we may within months be applying for such licenses for our Iridium systems."
The Barthman story ends well with a 1995 "thank you" letter to Ron Brown from Motorola CEO Gary Tooker.
"I am writing to thank you and some key members of the Commerce Department for your assistance in obtaining the Presidential waiver for encryption export sales to China," wrote Tooker in a letter that he copied to Dr. Barth.
However, the Iridium story ends very badly. In 1998, the Iridium satellite phone consortium topped out at $61 a share. By late July 1999, the troubled space-phone project run by Motorola dropped to $6 a share. Nine months after its debut, Iridium went bankrupt. The space-based phone system is de-orbiting and destroying the chain of 66 operational satellites, leaving Loral's Globalstar system with a total monopoly in the market.
cont---
-----Yet, Ron Brown's story also has a bad ending. On Feb. 6, 1996, Ron Brown met with Wang Jun, chairman of the Chinese army-owned arms company Poly Technologies. That same day, Wang also attended a White House coffee with Charlie Trie who also donated several thousand dollars to the DNC. President Clinton was host for the coffee. Trie is his old "friend" in the Clinton-Gore White House spin machine language -- with friend meaning a source of cash.
Nolanda Hill testified that Beijing arms dealer Wang and Brown discussed lowering satellite export controls. She warned Brown to stay away from Wang, who travelled the globe on an official Chinese diplomatic passport. That same day, Feb. 6, 1996, President Clinton approved the launch of four more U.S. satellites on Chinese army rockets. Later in 1996, Clinton also approved the full export of Loral's Globalstar system, including a complete encrypted satellite telemetry control center to be constructed outside Beijing.
In April 1996, Brown died in a trade flight to the former Yugoslavia. Sockowitz also was scheduled to fly with Secretary Brown but a last minute change forced him to miss that fatal flight. Instead, immediately after Ron Brown died Sockowitz walked out of the Commerce Department, unchecked, with over 2,000 pages of secret documents.
The death of the secretary came as a blow to the criminal investigations of Ron Brown's Commerce Department. It was well known that a special prosecutor was preparing heavy evidence of corruption. Brown's death stopped that investigation just before the 1996 election.
Despite the security breach, the Reno Justice Department and FBI Director Freeh decided there is no case against Sockowitz. The Commerce Department's inspector general also decided against a probe. Sockowitz claimed his reasons for taking the files were innocent and his claims were taken without question. No federal law enforcement official has ever questioned Ira Sockowitz.
Nolanda Hill testified that Beijing arms dealer Wang and Brown discussed lowering satellite export controls. She warned Brown to stay away from Wang, who travelled the globe on an official Chinese diplomatic passport. That same day, Feb. 6, 1996, President Clinton approved the launch of four more U.S. satellites on Chinese army rockets. Later in 1996, Clinton also approved the full export of Loral's Globalstar system, including a complete encrypted satellite telemetry control center to be constructed outside Beijing.
In April 1996, Brown died in a trade flight to the former Yugoslavia. Sockowitz also was scheduled to fly with Secretary Brown but a last minute change forced him to miss that fatal flight. Instead, immediately after Ron Brown died Sockowitz walked out of the Commerce Department, unchecked, with over 2,000 pages of secret documents.
The death of the secretary came as a blow to the criminal investigations of Ron Brown's Commerce Department. It was well known that a special prosecutor was preparing heavy evidence of corruption. Brown's death stopped that investigation just before the 1996 election.
Despite the security breach, the Reno Justice Department and FBI Director Freeh decided there is no case against Sockowitz. The Commerce Department's inspector general also decided against a probe. Sockowitz claimed his reasons for taking the files were innocent and his claims were taken without question. No federal law enforcement official has ever questioned Ira Sockowitz.
He did some inappropriate things in regards to China, but it's absurd to attribute their nuclear status to him. Jesus.
Then you all but post that Ron Brown was assasinated by him. For about the 10th time.
Then you all but post that Ron Brown was assasinated by him. For about the 10th time.
I wonder what we do when China plays there Taiwan card. Won't mater how we got to that day if we don't play our cards right. All we can do is convince them it's not in the worlds interest to rule Taiwan anymore then they today. We can't win that battle from here any other way. Unless we want to use nukes. And something tells me we won't find Taiwan important enough to do that. In fact we may give up on Taiwan just to get China to play the North Korea card for us if it gets that bad.
