Age Old Debate ... Batting vs. Pitching

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PerpetualCzech

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Interested to get the forum's views on one of the oldest debates around: Batting vs. Pitching. Which is more important? You hear stuff like "Baseball is 90% pitching" all the time but what does that statement really mean?

I believe that batting is more important than pitching ni baseball and here's why: The outcome of a plate appearance is more dependant on the skill of the batter than of the pitcher. To see this, take a look at the extreme ends of just about any statistic: Home Runs, Walks, Strikeouts, Hits ... you see that batters who lead or trail in these categories have much higher/lower numbers than the pitchers do. For example, no one pitcher gives up home runs as often as Barry Bonds hits them. Some hitters never hit a home run in a year but you'll never get a pitcher who doesn't give any up. No pitcher gives up walks as often as Bonds gets them. No pitcher gets as few strikeouts as Wade Boggs used to make. (Too lazy to look up the numbers right now, sorry.)

For this reason, I think a superstar hitter is worth more to a team than a superstar starting pitcher (since both of them give you about the same plate appearances/batters faced in a given season). Also for this reason I think you have to give more weight to the hitting abilities of a team than its pitching abilities when handicapping a game.

Thoughts?
 

THUNDER

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TEXAS RANGERS PRETTY MUCH ANSWERS THE DEBATE FOR ME. D AND PITCHING WINS, ANYONE WHO REALLY FOLLOWS OR HAS PLAYED THE GAME I THINK WILL AGREE. ATLANTA AND THE METS ARE EXAMPLES OF TEAMS WITH GREAT PITCHING AND EXCELLENT D WITH SUBPAR O THAT WIN. every year teams with the high era,s are lowest on the totem pole.
 

Valuist

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Definitely agree with Thunder. The Rangers are a great example of how you need pitching to win. You can add the Reds to that and possibly the White Sox, who's starting staff is shaky.
 
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PerpetualCzech

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OK, but I was looking for a bit more of a higher level analysis than that. You can't just pick out a couple of single examples out and jump to a conclusion right away like that.

For every champion who had great pitching you can name another one that had great hitting.
 

Valuist

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OK, when was the last time a team made it to the World Series who's strength WASN'T pictching? The Yankees offense hasn't been bad but it definitely hasn't been their strength. Arizona is obvious. As is Atlanta. The only offensive-dominated teams I can think of who've made it to the WS are the Brewers in the early 80s, the Big Red Machine teams of the mid 70s and possibly the A's of the late 80s with McGwire, Canseco and Henderson. I can't remember their rotation other than Stewart. They did have an awesome closer in Eckersley. Cleveland made it one year with mostly offense. MLB is no different than the other sports; you win with defense.
 

no butter

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Tough question...but I think it depends if you take it from a team point of view or a personal point of view. For instance, a team that has great pitching but not very good hitting won't fare too well. The same is true of a team with great hitting and so-so pitching. You have to have a balance of both to succeed. With that being said, if you want to go individual matchups, the following statement is true regardless: a good pitcher will ALWAYS shut down a good hitter.
 
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Felonious Monk

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Good lineups are cool and all, but they will get neutralized by a good pitcher if he is throwing well. Having a good lineup is basically going to get you a lot of runs against bad to mediocre pitching (which should contribute to your aggregate number of wins), but you still have to be able to run the bases, pitch, and play defense to beat good pitchers.

None of this is news, but it is good to keep in mind when you fantasize about scoring 1600 runs and winning every game 10-8. All hyperbole aside, it aint gonna happen.
 
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THUNDER

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the only point of view i look at is capping. poor pitching and overworked pens =losses period. this is not a perplexing ?. now a good pitcher who has just a couple pitches playing against a patient team maybe is a ? to debate- but pitching and d beats offensive teams with little pitching. cleveland the last few years at least has had a good pen and decent 1,2.3 guys. and it is not 1 or 2 examples- it is how the game is won.
 

PerpetualCzech

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FM and THUNDER,

I understand your opinions but *why do you believe it*? Giving an example for one Oak/Tex series is not enough to convince me.

Why can't you fanatisize about 10-8 wins and why does pitching and d beat offensive teams with little pitching? You need to do more than just say things to make a good argument ...
 

THUNDER

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i will say this once more- maybe this will make be clear- pitching with little hitting wins year in and year out. little pitching and good hitting teams go no where year in and year out. maybe you have not been capping bb long but it really is not rocket science. i would take a curt schilling-randy johnson over a barry bonds a-rod team in a series any day of the week. ml on any game those 2 are on the mound more often than not they win no matter who theypitch. arizona won the series with a very average offense.
 
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THUNDER

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just to let you know i played bb 4 years i hs and in college. this is not a opinion this is stated as a concesus from any coach or anyone who has played the game. if you think good o's beat pitching bet away but i hope you have a large pocketbook.vegas makes lines based primarily on staRTING pitching not on hitting. there is your explanation there.
 

Red Raider

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. You can't just pick out a couple of single examples out and jump to a conclusion right away like that.


PerpetualCzech, you did exactly that...

For example, no one pitcher gives up home runs as often as Barry Bonds hits them...

In this example, even if BB hits a homer, it does no good if a good pitcher hasn't allowed any other runs! Meanwhile the average pitching team has allowed the average hitting team several runs.

Pitching team wins 4 -1 ! (or what ever)

Remember, a good hitting team will have what 2, maybe 3 good hitters? They'll see the plate maybe a combined 12 times. Well the good pitcher see's EVERY batter.

D-backs are the best recent example.
 

PerpetualCzech

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Well, no I didn't, I gave a few more examples than one and claimed that it holds true for every statistic.

I think I have some good data to back me up on my opinion here ... I'll try and put it together over the next few days.

THUNDER,

That is not the explanation right there at all. The reason why vegas varies its line due to the starting pitcher is only because it's the starting pitcher that is changing every day and the starting hitters don't. If you had A-Rod batting in every spot in the lineup one day, another hitter the next and another hitter the next and rotated your pitchers with every at bat, then they would handicap the game based on the hitter. Again, just emphasizing your point over and over isn't making your point very well; I'm looking for *reasons*.
 
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