anyone know if Angelo Dundee ....

pt1gard

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picks fights anywhere anymore, Im guessing hes still alive and I havent missed something ...

he used to be uncanny, I have searched for his calls for long time but always strike out

gl, gregg
 

badjab

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dundee is picking Mosely

dundee is picking Mosely

this comes from an LA Times article on Thursday...

Shane Mosley beat Oscar De La Hoya twice, if you count one fight when they were kids. Vernon Forrest beat Mosley twice, three times if you count the time they fought as amateurs. Ricardo Mayorga beat Forrest twice.

So Mayorga is the most super of the super-welterweights.

Or not.

Ask most boxing experts, they'll tell you De La Hoya would beat Mayorga. De La Hoya feasts on guys like Mayorga, the raging bulls who come straight at him with no regard for what's going to stare back at them from the mirror in the morning. Guys like Julio Cesar Chavez and Arturo Gatti, and even Fernando Vargas, who knows better but still led with his jaw against De La Hoya.

Unfortunately for De La Hoya, he's not fighting Mayorga on Saturday night at the MGM Grand in Las Vegas.

De La Hoya is fighting Mosley again.

You want to know what kind of easy marks bet on boxing? When this fight went on the board, you had to lay down $240 on De La Hoya to make $100. He revealed that his left hand, his money hand, was hurt again, and the next day you had to lay down $250 on De La Hoya to make $100. The gamblers liked him even more.

They must not remember what happened at Staples Center in June 2000, when Mosley won a split decision that not even De La Hoya disputes.

You're not wrong if you believe De La Hoya will avenge his loss to Mosley. But you are wrong if you believe it will be as easy as the marks seem to think. You're also wrong if you believe Mosley's losses to Forrest have any significance in this fight.

Veteran trainer Angelo Dundee said by phone last week from his home in South Florida that Mosley would beat De La Hoya.

"The only thing that's changed since last time is that Mosley has lost a couple of times to Vernon Forrest," Dundee said. "But Mosley doesn't match up against Forrest. He matches up against De La Hoya."

I had an idea where Dundee was going next. It's the oldest cliche in boxing, having stood the test of time.

"Styles make fights," he said.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


There's no one more knowledgeable on that subject than Dundee.

First of all, the boxer credited with first declaring that styles make fights was another Dundee, which is no coincidence. Johnny Dundee was a lightweight champion who fought 330 times between 1910 and 1932. He was best known for introducing "The Scotch Woop," bouncing off the ropes before pouncing to give his punch more power. It could be a problem for Dundee, though, when his opponent punched first.

Angelo Merina Jr. became Angelo Dundee after his older brother, Joe, had changed his last name as a tribute to Johnny Dundee.

Years later, Angelo Dundee was involved in the best example of a style making a fight, or fights, when he trained Muhammad Ali for his three bouts with Ken Norton.

They were neither Ali's nor Dundee's finest hours because they never learned how to cope with Norton, who fought with his legs wide apart, his defense almost crab-like.

"I called him Hopalong Cassidy," Dundee said of Norton. "He'd hop in and throw a punch and then hop right back out. He couldn't take a big punch. [George] Foreman and [Earnie] Shavers had no trouble knocking him out. But if you didn't have a great knockout punch, which Muhammad didn't, he was hard to score against."

Norton won the first fight in 1973 as a 7-1 underdog, breaking Ali's jaw. Dundee recalled going to the hospital and hearing Ali, through clenched teeth because his jaw was wired shut, whisper, "We'll get him."

They never really did. Ali won the next two fights on decisions, but both were close. Many who saw the third fight insist Norton was robbed.

"He wasn't the best guy Muhammad faced, but he was the hardest for him to fight," Dundee said.

Dundee, in a finer moment, was on the other side when he trained Carmen Basilio against Sugar Ray Robinson. Robinson might have been the best pound-for-pound fighter ever, but he couldn't handle Basilio, the Mayorga of his day.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


OK, so that wasn't entirely a style issue.

But then, it seldom is entirely a style issue.

Robinson had difficulties with other fighters, such as Gene Fullmer and Randy Turpin, later in his career, which could be explained by those four words, "later in his career." A middleweight by then, Robinson wasn't as dominating against fighters in that division as he had been against welterweights.

Larry Merchant, who used to be one of the best sports columnists around and is now a boxing commentator for HBO, said, "Style matters if it is backed by substance."

Norton, for instance, was no palooka, winning the heavyweight title a year after his last fight against Ali.

Mosley, for another instance, presents a stylistic challenge to De La Hoya because of quickness. De La Hoya is accustomed to having more hand speed in a fight, but that is not the case when trying to defend against Mosley's combinations.

That, however, is not the only reason Mosley beat De La Hoya at Staples Center. Mosley is a clever ring general who fights left- or right-handed and adapts well during fights. He and his trainer-father, Jack Mosley, were tactically superior to De La Hoya and his trainer, Roberto Alcazar, who was fired after that fight.

Another point Merchant made was that "style makes fights, but style doesn't win fights."

Mosley's style didn't win the decisive 12th round against De La Hoya. Mosley's determination won it.

The winner of this fight, like that one, probably will be determined by who wants it most in the 12th round.
 

BOXLOCKS

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Well done badjab!
Good to see you back in the forum. It's amazing
that almost everyone I know is on Mosley but the
line is still moving toward De La Hoya. Oh well,
I'll take the +250 on a 50/50 chance. I actually
favor Mosley slightly, especially with Oscar's hand.
Joe Public must be bigger than we thought.

gl bl
 
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badjab

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Sorry if I've been away from the forum somewhat...this last month has been crazy for me...trying to complete a thesis research paper while working full time.

Boxlocks, you're right about the joe public factor. I bet you that some of the people who are betting on Oscar have never even heard of Shane Mosely...

I think there is also a tendency to overestimate the "revenge" factor in fights sometimes. People assume that just because a fighter was beat the first time, he will be more prepared or better able to handle his opponent the next go around. This certainly wasn't the case with Mayorga-Forest II.

I do think that Oscar has helped himself by taking on Mayweather as a trainer, however. He's become a smart fighter, and is better able to adjust.

I'll admit that after watching Sugar Shane lose two in a row to Forest, I thought he was pretty much done...but, like Dundee says, "styles make fights". Also, the trouble Oscar has had with his hand is too great not to take into consideration.

I'm going to put a "small" amount on Mosely to win by decision.
 

BOXLOCKS

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Certainly wasn't the case with Mosley-Forrest II either.
I totally agree that Mosley's losses to Forrest play no
role in this fight. I am not saying that Oscar can't win
this fight but -270!!! I told GW that De La Hoya is the
most popular non-heavyweight boxer of all time and
that some people will bet on him no matter who he
fights. Pretty much what you are saying. Don't forget
about the over and 10 bucks to make 200 on a draw,
like you said this will come down to the last round.

Again, great write up!

bl
 

gardenweasel

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i ended up with mosely

i ended up with mosely

by decision at +365..........just because it seemed like very good value and i`d be surprised if he stops dlh......

saw the ring on friday night fights.....a full 20 x 20....very big ring.......

if my wager on trabant wins tomorrow afternoon,i may hit the over for a small wager......i believe it`s 10.5....

one thing that concerned me was mosely`s muscularity....it`s not a great idea to move up a weight class and add to much muscle......especially if your game is speed.....could slow him down and affect his stamina in the later rounds...


should be interesting....

btw....loved the dundee comments.....even though the dynamics of the second fight have changed,it`s hard to change styles this late in the game....

styles truly do make fights....
 

ferdville

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Great thread, as usual, for this forum. I think that Joe Public is keeping the line so heavy in Oscar's favor. Almost anybody I talk to, almost all of them with only a simple knowledge of boxing, love Oscar. Any way you look at it, it will be a tough go. It is disturbing to hear that Shane has put on alot of muscle. That doesn't usually bode well, especially against another fast hands fighter. And what is the latest on Oscar's hand? Could that be a built-in excuse for a possible loss?
 

pt1gard

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badjab

badjab

thanx a ton, I go to so beaten up in tuff losses in fball today i forgot to check my thread; to say IM pissed is understatement -- but thanx a ton for posting I hope U and other won a bundle, just not my week when It comes to bounces, remember guys ANGELO knows ...

BADJAB, IF YOU EVER SEE HIS OPINION on any other fight

could you post or email me at pt1gard@aol.com

Id be ever grateful

gl gregg
 

badjab

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Gregg,
I'll definitely keep you in mind if I happen upon Dundee's predictions for upcoming bouts. He does seem to be pretty good at picking the winner. I'm counting myself lucky to get a win on Mosely by decision because from what I hear, it was not decisive. I was in Vegas when the fight went down, but was unable to find a closed circuit location to watch the bout. I did hear a lot of grumbling afterwards by people on the street about a "fix" and what a bad decision it was. The LA Times ran a story today that basically said people (the HBO crew mostly) should stop whining about it because Mosely definitely won.

Here's the article...

LAS VEGAS ? Controversy? What controversy?

If you had Oscar De La Hoya winning, you are as wobbly as he was.

If you had De La Hoya winning, you are suffering from his same blood-soaked vision.

If you did not agree with all three judges and most ringside observers that Sugar Shane Mosley won a close but unanimous decision in a super-welterweight championship upset Saturday, you need to visit a fight doctor, slide into an MRI machine, and have your scorecard examined.

De La Hoya dominated early. Mosley fought back to deadlock it with two rounds remaining.

Then Pomona dished out six minutes of fury upon East Los Angeles that could ? and maybe should ? knock De La Hoya into retirement.

In the end, it was about Mosley's fist on De Le Hoya's face, Mosley's fist on De La Hoya's ribs, Mosley's will over De La Hoya's exhaustion.

In the end, it was about Mosley striding into a backpedaling De La Hoya like an old-West gunslinger striding into a saloon, eyes wide, hands blazing.

De La Hoya's only late-round strength appeared after the final bell when he jumped on ring posts with his arms extended in a victorious pose that looked more like pleading than celebrating.

The surprise wasn't that Mosley won, 115-113, on all three cards.

The surprise was that anybody would think it would be anything different.

Especially the beaten champion.

"Obviously, I thought won the fight," De La Hoya said. "I didn't even think it was close."

He was joined by the influential HBO pay-per-view announcers, who stoked the fire by saying it was one of the worst decisions in boxing history, which is one of the most misguided stances in boxing history.

The poor sportsmanship continued when De La Hoya said he was going to protest the decision, and promoter Bob Arum said he was going to take his ball and go home.

"I am out of this," said Arum, referring to the Las Vegas fight scene. "I think this is such an outrage that I'm never, ever going to be a party to this again."

Talk about believing your own hype.

What did all these De La Hoya employees and apologists think? That because his charisma had carried this fight for the last two months, he could simply show up and throw a few punches and win?

What did they think this was, a coronation?

If so, then the king ended it slumped on his throne, his crown askew, gasping for breath and lucky to be upright.

Indeed, De La Hoya won the battle of punch statistics, but boxing is battle of rounds, and De La Hoya didn't spread the pain like Mosley.

Said Mosley: "I felt stronger than him. I felt overwhelmingly stronger than him."

Countered De La Hoya: "This was not even as close as the Trinidad fight."

Glad he brought that up. While many folks will claim that De La Hoya unfairly lost this fight as he lost the Felix Trinidad fight ? simply because he tried to stay out of trouble in the final rounds ? there are two big differences.

In the Trinidad fight, De La Hoya had built up a big enough lead early in the fight that, perhaps, the late rounds shouldn't have mattered so much.

In this fight, he had no lead going into the final two rounds.

Also, in the Trinidad fight, it was strategy that kept him from landing many blows in the final rounds.

In this fight, it was stamina.

De La Hoya was clearly tired. Mosley was charging directly into his jab and there was little De La Hoya could do about it.

De La Hoya surely knew he needed to win at least one of those final two rounds to win the fight, yet he couldn't muster the strength to throw the big punch.

Or maybe he didn't know. Maybe wacky trainer Floyd Mayweather, as many feared, did not properly instruct his fighter at the end.

Maybe De La Hoya will not retire, but here's guessing Mayweather has worked his last fight in De La Hoya's corner.

"Losing never crossed our minds," said Mayweather.

Well, it should have.

"I can't believe this happened in Las Vegas," said Mayweather.

So maybe they not only believed the hype, but also the geography, the fact that De La Hoya promoter Arum brings so much money into his adopted hometown of Las Vegas, local fight judges would never turn on him.

The whiners also said it was the gore.

"They scored the blood," claimed George Foreman, one of the HBO announcers.

He was referring to the accidental head butt in the fourth round that opened a cut over De La Hoya's right eye.

It was the only time anyone can remember De La Hoya bleeding during the fight. But it was far from being Vitali Klitschko-type blood, and far from being a factor.

All three L.A. Times scorecards, from three writers who rarely agree on anything, gave Mosley a close decision.

De La Hoya thinks he was jobbed, the heck with giving credit to Mosley, and he's going to keep fighting.

"I'm going to put on a full investigation to get to the bottom of this," De La Hoya said late Saturday, the Golden Boy sounding like a Golden Baby.

Bill Plaschke can be reached at bill.plaschke@latimes.com
 

pt1gard

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thanx badjab

thanx badjab

for all the info

glad U won

everyone always calls fix when they lose

i have no idea who won

same as when sugar ray beat hagler, everyone said fix, sorry hagler didnt want to throw punches that nite and sugar beat him and I even bet on hagler and could admit he didnt deserve it--but many others disagreed

take care
gregg
 
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