Canadien troops killed by U.S. fire......

[dr. freeze]

my heart goes out to the families of the Candadiens and all Canadiens who mourn the loss of their soldiers.......this is unexcusable and hopefully a quick and thorough investigation yields quick punishment to irresponsible behavior.....

unfortunately, the american military has placed a premium on conducting social experiments and has put a premium on promoting people through the ranks who are more concerned with how everyone feels instead of discipline, order, and competency.....hopefully this gets resolved in a hurry or we will have more blunders resulting from our military operations....some people from some political points of view think that the military is a good place for social experiment and think that their view of "fairness" and "equality" should presume over common sense and effectiveness -- and as previously mentioned order and discipline....

not only does this backward way of thinking affect our military effectiveness but it has also taken the lives of several brothers from the North yesterday......

we still have many valient men and women in our military but restraints have been placed on them increasingly in the last ten or so years hindering them from performing at the highest level possible....this is in no way their fault, but the blame lies in the hands of the people who place these restraints upon them....

 

[spanky2]

Thanks Man, It was bad. As is war.
We lost 26 Canadians on Sept. 11th ,so we ALL share when "our" people go down.
Your President 'pissed off' our country by not saying any- thing until one of our Ministers reemed his ASS BIG TIME...
Bush issued an appology about 2 hours later,how convienient,isn't that??? We know an accident can happen and it's too bad,but when your using 'live ammo and bombs', I would sure want to be 100 % who I am "unloading" on.
It really is too bad, war really does show another result of mans inhumanity.
Thanks for your thoughts,your wishes are the first I've read that seem to care about "OUR GUYS" . I hope your Gov't does something for the families, as the way thousands of Canadians came to the aid of the Americans on 9-11.
Regards for all the people affected by this senseless tragedy.

Spanky.........

 

[Neemer]

Although I share your same sentiment, I don't agree with your assessment of our armed forces. They are the bravest of the brave and the USA is truly the only remaining superpower in this world. With the sheer amount of different operations going on in Afghanistan, I can fully understand how mistakes can happen. We all know the Canadian mishap was not done intentionally by our troops, but until you've experienced what these men and women go through each and every day, I find it hard to pass judgement upon them. Similiar such events happened in Desert Storm as well, but I don't think or feel it was intentionally done by the people that serve our country. Coordinating a complicating offensive such as this, most realize that innocent lives will be lost. My thoughts and prayers go out to all the men and women of Canada that unfortunately lost their lives in this accident.

spank....

Of the thousands of people that were killed on Sept. 11th, I'd say it safe to say that there were numerous different countries that represented the people who lost their lives. Canada was obviously one of these countries, but I don't think Bush intentionally didn't mention them because he didn't care. If you like nothing else about George W. Bush, I hope you realize that he does have a big heart, and he truly was devastated with every live that was lost in New York city...

 

[dr. freeze]

this mistake clearly demonstrated the lack of discipline which permeates our military today......this rogue behavior is unexcusable and no one with half a brain would have dropped bombs on seeing gunfire before perfect acknowledgement that it was enemy fire........having someone up there with no knowledge of what was beneath him -- or ignorance of what he is flying over is inexcusable......it shows that we have not done our homework, do not follow orders, and do not have a train of comman which is effective as we have had in the past which has won so many a battle......

our military is still second to none, but it is also a DISTANT second to that which it once was in everything save technology

 

[AR182]

I don't think that this was rogue behavior at all.According to what I have read,the pilot thought that he was be fired upon.If a pilot thinks he is under fire,he has automatic clearance to attack back.IMO the fault lies at the feet of the person who did not notify the pilots that Canada was running practice drills.These drills were at an old Alqaeda traing camp.

I also agree that Bush did not mean to slight the Canadian people by not apoligizing quickly enough.As Neemer pointed out Bush seems to have a heart.

I too offer sympathies to the families of the fallen soldiers.

 

[selkirk]

I agree Spanky Bush is not that popular in Canada. When the news broke Bush went to a few public engagments where media was present. Guess it was not important enough to mention or express sadness about the accident not even a minute or two.
when asked by a Canadian reporter he just said it was an unfortunate accident and left the room (he was on his way out ). Only that night something was done, and it was address by the President the next day. The US military I thought handled the situation and expressed sadness very quickly and did a good job, addressing the media.

Bush has a difficult job with US foreign policy and I think he has done well since Sept. 11. Still this incident and maybe the odd trade dispute (softwood lumber- not exactly a free trader) is causing some concerns for Canada.

Best wishes for the families it is ironic since they went out on a couple of combat missions and even exchanged fire, but no one died, then 4 die by accident. It was a training area so there was a mix up somewhere, someone should have told the pilot or maybe the pilot did screw up it will take time 21 days, and then more should be known.

know someone over there but was not involved. best wishes to the families of the dead and injured.

thanks
selkirk

 

[spanky2]

Thanks for your input guys. I think Donald Rumsfeld is nothing but a "Parrot" and I am not overly impressed with his comments.
I feel there is a 'Power' impressing the necessity to show a huge display of Atttackability, and this terrible result occured.
Honestly, I'm glad Canadian troops did not make such an 'honest,but pathetic error. We would hear one hell of alot from KING G W. Bush ( and I respect 'many'of the difficult and perilous decisions he has had to order) but I find his bombastic attitude toward Canada quite often 'off the cuff'.
Anyway, Most Gov't represent the people ,but I think their power is somewhat too powerfull,and are self -motivated .
We are all brothers in a free society and I hope all wounds from recent events in the last 6 months can bring us together .It's an evil world, and it always will be while man is the main threat to EXTERMINATE all living life, so let's hope we can move on ,and change.....Spanky........

 

[spanky2]

Well it sure looks like alot of people are JUST LIKE BUSH- Don't really care !!!!!! What BULLSHIT !!!! How many Americans actually are aware of what happened to OUR GUYS, I'll bet not even 1 in 10 Americans know that a U. S. PLANE killed $ Canadians recantly and wounded more.
NOT ONE phone call from Bush to the families !!!!This guy is FUCHING something else.That God he runs YOUR country ( how he won that re-count will always be a fuchin joke), talk about a selfserving Son Of a Bitch,if I was part of the affected families ,I would really be upset at ALOT of people that are supposed to be able to direct others. Sorry Dan, (Marine) but your military is out of FUCHIN control if they are dropping bombs on unknowns !!!!!!(OUR TROOPS).
So I suggest your MR. G.W.Bush reach out and touch the families of the Canadian soldiers that were killed by American military (Very accidentlyI know-but still....) and then go fuch yourself and buy some ENRON stock and hire a 20's something gal named Monica.
I do not mean ANY of this towards my American friends at all,you guys are GREAT !!!!!!!!
Just tell G.W. to shove it and get your country in order you fool..... Sorry ,but I hope ALL of you will find out what happened with your 'gun happy military' before you get pissed at me.Bush is a real COCK !!!!!!!!! Spanky
Take care and best to all

 

[dr. freeze]

i don't think that Bush should call the Canadien families.....he isn't president of Canada.....you shouldn't take it out on him -- the fault is in the hands of how the military is run these days.....i already tried to outline the problems in it.....

this was a horrible atrocity and you can bet that everyone feels bad about what happened....nothing you can do but hold those responsible for their actions.....

i would argue that the problem which lies in our military is that we have too many touchy feely people that have been promoted to the upper ranks in our military -- problems like this occur when you have lack of discipline and don't have strong leadership.....

a strong leader shouldn't go around apologizing to everyone and try to make everyone "feel" good....that is not what leadership is about....look at Patton, MacArthur, and other generals in our past -- do you think they went around on a p.r. campaign and tried to make everyone feel good? Hell no!!!! Do you think things like this would happen under the eye of MacArthur or Patton?? Hell no!!! If an order was disobeyed, heads would roll!

A strong leader is ESSENTIAL to preventing things like this from happening. An effective leader does not go on p.r. campaigns and shed a tear for everyone who is hurting. We have had enough of that, and because of this we are in the situation we are in. We have failed to demonstrate the toughness that we have had in the past and as a result people think they can push us around. The absolute last thing we need right now is for our leader to go around and cry with everyone for days on end. The time for grieving should be there no doubt, but the extent of it should not go on and on and on. Bush demonstrated this effectively after the Sept 11 -- do you think he called all those people's families?? And most of them are our countrymen!!!! He grieved for a day or two and was visibly shook. Thereafter, his grief turned to resolve. That helped America move on in its grief and instead of turning to a life of fear, we turned to a life of determination and resolve!

Strength must be shown now by both the United States AND Canada. We are truely truely sorry for what happened, but you must stand with us and realize that words are cheap and sometimes they do much worse when spoken time and time again.

 

[Neemer]

No offense Spank, but do ya really think the leader of the free world has time to call each of the 3,000 victims families that were killed on 9/11? Just b/c he doesn't show the proper form of public emotion that you had hoped for, doesn't give ya the right to crucify the guy. You really don't have any idea how he reacted to the death of the Canadiens when he was off camera. If I was guessing, he was probably extremely remorseful and more than likely relayed these sentiments to the top Canadien government officials. I think it's kind of crazy to think the President of the United States has time to call each victim's families when something like this occurs.

American friendly fire costs a few lives in the USA in our Desert Storm Campaign. I don't know for sure, but I seriously doubt Pappa Bush sat down and called each family to express his sympathy. As I've stated before, you nor I know the sheer amount of complexeties that are involved in administering wars such as these. I don't want to get in a pissin' contest, but I would say that the majority of Americans believe George W. has done an excellent job in his campaign to rid the world of terrorism. He still is the commander-in-chief of the greatest military in the entire universe. I'm completely comfortable with him being our leader and President....

 

[spanky2]

I have no problem with your care for the man.
BOY!!! 4 Phone calls to the families of the men that were killed,how long might that take??? Perhaps 30-40 seconds per call ???
Sorry but I KNOW this is TOTALLTY wrong. Please don't compare this to all the people of 9-11. Let's try to move on from that WORLDWIDE HORROR O.K.???
I am just pissed,shit we are 'brothers' right next door. I meet many GREAT Americans every year,either when I go away,or when I am up north and I meet American"guests".
Your stupid Gov't thinks it's doing us a favor by letting a person from the Canadian Military join the enquiry.Well,your CNNpeople seem to be unaware he was 'ordered'by our Gov't to go and 'he' is a full General and he WILL be co-chairing the full investigation......
Can you say Whitewash ????????
Freeze,thanks for the input,at least someone speaks out about the need to accept Responsibility and forget this shit of sweeping the entire disaster under the rug.......
4 DEAD 6 BADLY INJURED And how many people are aware of this even happening ????
Spanky

 

[AR182]

Spanky....My wife is Canadian.I have been exchanging e-mails with either her family or friends about this subject.So I understand how you feel.I don't know if it is right or wrong that Bush didn't call the families of the Canadian soldiers.He didn't call the families of the American soldiers who died in Afghanistan either.
War is the pits.More American soldiers have died from friendly fire in this war than by the enemy.But we have no choice.If anyone thinks that if we stopped fighting in this war,the terrorists problem will go away.I am positive they are wrong.This is a war where extremists hate our way of life.Even though you don't like Bush,you should be glad that he is the president.Not so much for him,but because of who he has for VP.Sec'ty of Defense & State.You will not find a more experienced foreign affairs cabinet.BTW,I voted for Gore.

I disagree with Dr.Freeze concerning lack of discipline in the military.I think the discipline is fine.I do ,however think that Military command should be stationed closer to the war,instead of Tampa.

 

[dr. freeze]

smartest person in the cabinet is Condaleeza Rice.....you can put together the IQ of the entire Clinton Cabinet and they would about add up to hers....

if there is going to be a woman or a black in the oval office in the near future, i would hope that it would be her

 

[spanky2]

Thanks guys, I guess Canadians are not used to this ,and as stated,it really upset me. Dam, we gotta fix this fuched up world..
Spanky....

 

[JT]

Bush didn't need to call the families direct but could have released a statement or called the Prime Minister as soon as it happened. Personally I didn't vote for him and would have much preferred anyone else. My father is a life long republican and for the first time voted democrat because he thought so little of him. But he kissed the a** of our religious right fanatics so we ended up with him. Oh well, only 3 more years hopefully. As for the military itself, I don't know what exactly the problem is but it was not always the case in past wars like Vietnam. As usual we won't look into it hard enough because looking into cause and effect is something we don't do enough of here.