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Neemer

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Bluegrass!
Message from Black Rhino Casino and Sportsbook
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From Black Rhino Casino and Sportsbook.

It seems that there are people on various on-line gaming forums who have chosen to complain that Black Rhino Casino and Sportsbook is allegedly not paying players.

Currently, we have suspended 3 people from our site for violating our terms and conditions, rules put in place to make for fair play for both the players and the casino.

Legally, we cannot and will not go into specifics of each case, but will give a brief overview of these matters in this letter.

The 3 players suspended have all placed numerous wagers at our sportsbook, not just a few wagers each as suggested by one of the complainants. Our security looks at several variables to determine if our terms and conditions have been violated. All 3 players exhibit several tell tale signs of professional techniques. When this occurs, we also confer with other online sportsbooks with regard to individual players, without giving more info on the player than we need to. Just as land based casinos and sportsbooks share information with each other with regard to certain players and techniques, as do on-line establishments.

As an example, one player placed 117 bets with us in a 30-day period. After further investigation, it was found that he had also placed wagers on 3 other sites during the same time, on the same lines, opposite outcomes. We do not need to investigate any further in these cases. When we contact security at other sportsbooks and the first 3 we talk to tell us they are facing the same problems with the same player, it?s evident that the player is more than likely wagering at more than the 4 sportsbooks we?re aware of. With more than 400 verified wagers placed in a 30-day period, it?s safe to say that player is a professional gambler

Rule 7 of our terms and conditions states:

?Player's participation in the Gaming System is personal and not professional.?

After all, we are a charitable casino and hosting a gambling site specifically catering to professional gamblers does not work well with our efforts to protect endangered species.

We don?t allow players to have 2 accounts with us, nor do any other casinos and sportsbooks. Players who do are immediately banned. Also, it?s been practice in the industry, since it?s inception, that if a casino can prove a player has an account with another casino and is cross betting in a similar fashion, they are banned and their account is closed. This happens regularly, most players who are caught will only be up $50-$100 dollars because of ongoing security. In Black Rhino?s case, we?re new and our security team has only recently reached full strength. As such, 2 of the players had managed to accumulate sizable wins before being noticed. Only because of the size of the wins has this been aired in public. We have attempted to be taken advantage of for not fully enforcing our terms and conditions, and now when we do, players violating those rules have taken exception. Had we noticed these violations earlier, and shut down these players? accounts when their wins were not sizable or they had no wins at all, it?s doubtful we would be defending ourselves right now.

There are numerous patterns that our security watch for when we red flag an account. For obvious reasons, we?re not about to divulge these patterns; we?d just be teaching others how to attempt to cheat on-line casinos and sportsbooks.

It?s important to note that we are a business and, just as any other business, be it land based or on-line; we are subject to attempts of fraud. We have put in security measures and monitor players in an effort to deter attempts of violating our terms and conditions.
When anyone signs up at our site, they must agree to the terms and conditions, if they choose not to, then we, as a business, must protect ourselves.

It?s also important to note that we are forwarding each players deposits back to them, with the exception of one player who profited $6990.00 from violating the terms and conditions. We have not asked that player for those funds to be returned and at this point have no plans on doing so.

As a new casino and sportsbook, we have made a few mistakes and will more than likely make more along the way. As an example, during the Stanley Cup Playoffs, we had some players attempt to take advantage of an erroneous line. In our terms and conditions, that all must agree to before becoming a member, rule 8 states:

?Player acknowledges that full freedom from errors or incompleteness is impossible to achieve with respect to computer software. Should Player become aware that the software contains such error or incompleteness Player undertakes to refrain from taking any advantage whatsoever thereof. Moreover, promptly upon becoming aware of such error or incompleteness Player shall notify the Company in writing.?

We had approximately 50 players wager on that erroneous line with in a 20-minute period. If we had enforced our terms and conditions at that point, we feel that it would have been unfair from the players perspective. It was, after all, our mistake. The error was noticed almost immediately and, instead we took the high road, acknowledged our mistake, and in fact, canceled their bets, returned their money and gave them an additional 10% of their wager.

Black Rhino Casino has been using Futurebet software since our re-launch on May 25th, 2002. Our site has been well received and these complaints are the first we?ve been made aware of. Other than these cases, we?ve had nothing but praise. It would be a shame if a few individuals who decide not to follow our terms and conditions could jeopardize the integrity of Black Rhino Casino and Sportsbook.

All financial transactions at Black Rhino are handled by iDollar. iDollar is not responsible for holding any players funds, we are. Black Rhino makes the final decisions on all payouts or freezes.

Our customer support is also handled by iDollar. We stand behind our customer service 100% and feel that it?s the best in the business. We have noticed attempts by one person posting to diminish the integrity of our live chat. When someone contacts live chat with unusual questions and immediately goes on the defensive, we?ve asked our customer service to be a little bit more rigid. Again, this is the first complaint we?ve seen with regard to customer service, the typical comments we hear include the words ?excellent? and ?superb?.

We will always continue to monitor our casino and sportsbooks for signs of professionals attempting to play by their own rules. As such, somewhere down the road, more players will have their accounts frozen while we investigate their play patterns and wagers. Now that our security is up to full speed, all account investigations should be handled in a more expedient manner. Hopefully, we can be more proactive in spotting these individuals and these cases will not merit a discussion in public forums.

Please keep in mind that these player?s complaints are unique and do not reflect the general memberships? experience at Black Rhino. All other members of our site have been paid their winnings in a timely fashion when requested. As stated previously, we all must follow the rules. Only when one party chooses not to, do problems occur. Part of our mission here at Black Rhino Casino and Sportsbook is to provide the highest possible level of customer support and service, while offering the best software available. We?re quite confident that we?re living up to our player?s expectations; we care about our players needs.

We fully apologize for the confusion and negative thoughts these cases have created on the various gaming forums. We welcome your comments and suggestions, as always, to contact@blackrhinocasino.com We thank you for your understanding in these matters and invite you to visit our site, but please, for the sake of all players, the animals and the industry in general, play by the rules!


Sincerely,

The Staff of Black Rhino Casino and Sportsbook
 

TheShrimp

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Re: CHECK this out..

Neemer said:
Message from Black Rhino Casino and Sportsbook
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<snip>
As an example, one player placed 117 bets with us in a 30-day period. After further investigation, it was found that he had also placed wagers on 3 other sites during the same time, on the same lines, opposite outcomes.
<snip>
We don?t allow players to have 2 accounts with us, nor do any other casinos and sportsbooks. Players who do are immediately banned. Also, it?s been practice in the industry, since it?s inception, that if a casino can prove a player has an account with another casino and is cross betting in a similar fashion, they are banned and their account is closed.
<snip>
Am I being dense or is this guy basically saying, "if anyone tries a middle with one of our lines, he'll be banned."

However, he also says, "he placed wagers on the same line, opposite outcomes." Is he insinuating that the guy maybe wanted to move his money from one sportsbook to another and so he just bet the opposite on a couple games?

If so, automatically losing yourself the vig doesn't sound like the actions of a professional gambler to me. If the book doesn't want to take the risk, then either put a limit on the bet or dont' run a sportsbook.

Sounds like this guy got creamed by a middle (or something), doesn't want to pay, and is being a bitch about it.

I'm not a professional, but I'll often lay a large amount when I find an "arbitrage". Usually one book ends up benefitting from it, and one book ends up paying for it. Sounds like no big deal to me, but maybe I'm missing something.
 

WHY ASK WHY?

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Oct 3, 2001
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How in hell would he know about other accounts his customers may have???

Any yea if you can't shoot for a middle thats B.S.!!!

WHY?
 

acehistr8

Senior Pats Fan
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Jun 20, 2002
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What a load of BS.

Though if I remember right in reading the Infinity rules for the football contest, they sepcifically prohibity you from playing both sides of a game as well.
 

MadJack

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Jul 13, 1999
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there are a lot of books that don't want you to play both sides with them. a lot! it's not 'nice', i guess :)

but, THIS book doesn't even want you to scalp or middle with OTHER BOOKS? total bullshit!
 

TheShrimp

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MadJack said:
there are a lot of books that don't want you to play both sides with them. a lot! it's not 'nice', i guess :)
I'm really missing something.

Why wouldn't a book want you to play both sides with them? Aren't they just taking your vig?

Or do they not want you to take both sides with them when a line moves? Still, that's bullshit. If they can't make a line that doesn't have to move, that's their own damn problem. Playing off line moves is part of the game.

MadJack said:

but, THIS book doesn't even want you to scalp or middle with OTHER BOOKS? total bullshit!
Utter and complete bullshit. AND, just how exactly are they finding this out? What other books were revealing to them what kind of plays were being made by a particular player.
 

nighthorse

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The defintion of a professional:


Performed by persons receiving pay: professional football. Having or showing great skill; expert: a professional repair job.

This book doesn't want any customers they'll have to make a payout to, or show any skills.

I think all books would love this kind of a customer base, but most don't come out and state it like these guys do. They might as well put a "Schmuks only" sign on their home page.

I don't give 2 shits about the Black Rhino or any other ecological welfare cases. Leave this book for the left-wing losers.
 

ferdville

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Dec 24, 1999
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I have a suggestion for Black Rhino and other places like them. Just post a big sign - NO GAMBLING ALLOWED. That should take care of all your rules and regulations. What a joke. There are many books, including some in Vegas, that take away any edge a player could possible have. Luckily, not all sportsbooks adhere to such policies. Still, many use frustrating tactics regarding parlays, run lines, etc. - but my advice is take your money and run when you see this happening.
 

AR182

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This has to be one of the most stupid posts I have ever read.This message are at other forums also.After reading this,I don't think anyone in their right mind will bet with this book.And the people who put this message out in this manner should be fired,because the bad PR they are getting is going to kill their business.
Question I have.....How do they know what anybody bets with another book ? I thought these books are suppose to keep info confidential.Don't like them sharing personal info.
 

Neemer

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Bluegrass!
I honestly think they're full of chit when they state that they keep an open eye on these players at other offshore sportsbooks. I guarantee ya someone like WSEX or Olympic would tell these fellas to take a flyin' leap if they wanted some info. on their customers. Only way I see this feasible, is if they have a particular interest in a few other offshores out there. I seriously doubt most books will open up their files so these clowns can see if some of their customers are hedging, scalping, or middling.

I can surely tell you one thing, these knuckleheads WILL NOT be around for to long, especially once this piece of material makes its way around the popular gambling forums. If not for middling games, I know there would be quite a few folks that would pick up another hobby of interest. Frankly, I thought it was a joke when I read the first few paragraphs and was searching for a punch line mid way through. Needless to say, these cats are dead serious about MONITORING their customers and their individual plays they make not only at their sportsbook, but other sportsbooks as well. These folks are full blown fukking clowns!

I know I'm not the sharpest crayon in the box, but why in the hell would they not let someone bet both sides of a particular game, especially if the number remains the same? They can't lose for Christ sakes and would make a GUARANTEED 10% everytime some bozo bet opposite on some sporting event. Of course it's not always 10% juice, but you get the jist of what I'm trying to say. If I bet the Bulls Over 209 and right before tip, the total runs to 215, then it would be completely ILLEGAL at their Sportsbook to get down on the UNDER at 215? I am reading that correctly aren't I? If these pansy fukking knuckleheads are scared of getting middled on some games by some of its customers, then (A) they shouldn't change the #, or (B)they should get the fukk out of the business.

I believe they'll have the "DUMBEST SPORTSBOOK OF THE YEAR" award rapped up pretty handily...
 

SixFive

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Mar 12, 2001
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RED flag. Never post up to this book. With this kind of philosophy, they could rationalize a lot of reasons to ban a winner while at the same time keeping their winnings. No thanks. If u think somebody is a sharp/pro and they are killing u, close their account, pay them out, and take your loss. I'm sure Rhino is more than happy to take the money of their losers.
 

AR182

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One point I forgot to address in my last post.....

This book refused to pay a player close to $7000 for "violating some rules".Can this book legally do this? Is there a place where this player could appeal this decision?
I appreciate if someone can answer these questions.

I have been playing at offshore books for a few years,but the more I see these books mismanaged to oblivion,the more unsettled I am about offshores.
 

Neemer

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AR....

Essentially, they could do whatever they damn well please. Since the transaction is considered to be on foreign soil, then the laws that you and I abide by in the grand ole USA, do not apply to them. Just ONE of the numerous risks you set yourself up for by doing bizness with people from a foreign country. They could give WHATEVER reason not to pay your dinero, and all you can do is sit there and take it like a man. I've read a few things about a governing body overseeing the offshore sportsbook activities, but it's all a bunch of horsechit!!! He could very well initiate some sort of legal action against these crooks, but the only thing he would essentially be doing is wasting a lot more money.

Reputation is nearly EVERYTHING in this business, and what little they had, they just lost. Their day will come, and I bet it's sooner than later.

I too share your nervousness with little known outfits, so that's why I tend to put the majority of my money at places that have been established for numerous years, and have a flawless record on payouts to customers. There are quite a few here at Jacks, but WSEX, Olympic, Carib, Cris, and Pinnacle tend to stand on a level or two higher than the others.

From a curiosity standpoint, I was wondering if anyone ever posted up with these guys, and what there results were if they asked for a payout...
 

kosar

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AR182 said:
One point I forgot to address in my last post.....

This book refused to pay a player close to $7000 for "violating some rules".Can this book legally do this? Is there a place where this player could appeal this decision?
I appreciate if someone can answer these questions.

I have been playing at offshore books for a few years,but the more I see these books mismanaged to oblivion,the more unsettled I am about offshores.


AR182,

Your question of ' can a book legally do this' is sadly one of semantics at this point in the game. In any normal persons mind, this is not legal. But in the wild world of the offshore books, anything goes. While this may seem alarmist, when you think about the HUGE number of books operating and some (many?) in existence simply to rob players, I don't think it's that much of an overstatement. This 'book' clearly falls into this category. It's a total joke and there is no other conclusion that they are beat-artists, plain and simple. There are tons of other cases that come up almost daily that are much more borderline, but in the end the book is going to do what they are going to do.

In response to your question about whether there is anywhere for this to be taken to by this gambler, the answer is no, other than the forums(and this has certainly limited influence). There is no ruling body in Costa Rica, Curacao, Antigua, Dominica, Dominican Republic, Kawanake Village in Canada etc that will help gamblers with individual complaints like this. Any sort of 'licensed in' BS is just that. There have been stiff books in all of those jurisdictions with no relief granted to individual gamblers by any of their so-called commissions, or whatever. They're a joke.


That said, in the overall scheme of things, I don't think that you could find safer places to bet than 25-30 certain books that are located in the aforementioned jurisdictions. And another 40 or so that are by all accounts solid as hell. Not that you were saying anything different, but where does a gambler go when his local stiffs him? Obviously there are no guarantees with any bookie that you play into, but on balance, the offshores still offer the best value. This nonsense above is one of the most ridiculous excuses for not paying that I have ever seen, but it's not indicitive of the off-shore world as a whole, especially for those of us who are lucky enough to know about this forum and others that enable us to at least make educated decisions on where to play. As opposed to the poor souls who log onto a search engine and blindly find places like Black Rhino. There are tons of Black Rhino's out there, we just don't hear about them because such a low percentage of off-shore bettors even know about these forums.

I wouldn't let a case like this shake your confidence in the offshore bookmaking world. It just isn't typical for even the 'semi-informed' gambler.
 

Hack

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Praise the Lord for Intertops and Canbet.
They allow both side wagering.

I guess most of the other cyber gaming sites are taking advantage of the multitudes of morons out there that have no clue.
To those sites I say:We`re all not as dumb as I look.
 

Neemer

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07.10.02 (7:13 PM EST) - Black Rhino Sportsbook and Casino admittedly confiscates winnings of three players based on their playing opposite sides at other books. It is Gambling911.com's position that sports books should pay winnings and then, if necessary, close player accounts. While a handful of books such as Intertops, NASA and SBG Global have been cited for failure to pay certain high profile syndicate groups in the past, Black Rhino has taken this one step forward and appears to be applying this to normal every day middlers and the like. Black Rhinos actions do threaten the average recreational gambler and Gambling911.com feels compelled to issue an advisory against them at this time at least until they adhere to a different policy and pay the three players in question.
 

bean counter

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sounds like these stooges need a new bookmaker. when you are getting scalped for near 7000 that means your lines are way off and the other books are up big collecting the losing side of the scalp if i was a book i would not share anything with these dummies i would be getting all the scalped losses. they should just close up after that dumbass explanation.
 

AR182

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Neemer & Kosar,thanks for your replies.


Has anyone ever heard of the Off Shore Gaming Assoc.(www.osga.com)? They state that they are an independent watchdog agency that monitors the offshore gaming industry.They will help solve a problem a player might have with an offshore book.
Does anyone know if they are legit or effective ?

I have been using Olympic & Canbet for years & have never had any problems.I used to use Bowmans,but discovered that they use different lines for different people.

Boy,I miss the days when I used to go to the backroom of the neighborhood drycleaners to place my bets.At least I knew they weren't going anywhere.
 

yak merchant

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Just pisses me off that no matter who you are, if you make money these books will deem you a professional and decide to not pay you. Nothing but a bunch of welchers. And 117 bets in a 30 day period? Hell during college basketball I placed about that many bets in a week sometimes. And god forbid I use more than one book. All I have to say is if a book ever uses the professional clause to stiff me, I will be on a plane and I will either get paid, or I will do hard time.
 

kosar

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AR 182,

OSGA is bought and paid for by NASA sports, who has approximately 10 books under their umbrella. OSGA is an out an out joke. They can do nothing for you other than rule against you if you have a dispute with one of the NASA run books. They are a non-entity, just like any other group that claims to have the ability and/or power to handle disputes fairly.

BTW-if you're not familiar with NASA, they stiffed a syndicate out of a half a million after taking losing bets in the range of 330K. They also made a player who had a legitimate dispute with them make a trip to Costa Rica to collect and even then only paid out half his winnings.

That's who owns OSGA.
 
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