Define "Rich"

[saint]

I haven't seen much talk about Obama's plan to target homeowner tax breaks by lowering the deduction amounts. On the surface it doesn't seem like a big deal, basically it would change the amount the "rich" get back from 35 cents on the dollar to about 28 cents on the dollar for their home interest deductions. The reality is if Obama is willing to do anything that could dissuade people from getting back into the housing market, even if it's just 4% of Americans, is absolutely fucking insane.

If this were one of the few areas the "rich" would get hit, I really think this could be a sensible increase. In addition to getting hit with this, there will be higher federal taxes, higher state income taxes, higher dividend taxes, higher payroll taxes....I mean where is it going to end?!?! Obama is going to drive this bracket into the ground and non-existence. And on top of that most in this range get hit with the AMT and are already getting dropped to 28c on the dollar for mortgage interest. Socialism is but a few steps away, and the maddening thing is that people are blinding themselves to it. Really, I can say personally I love this country and am very fortunate to be where I'm at and I can swallow an increase in taxes if it is going to help right the ship. But a line has to be drawn at some point.

Which brings up the topic of the definition of rich. I'm sorry people but 250k in many areas of this country is not rich. Fortunate, yes. Well-off, yes. Rich, no way. Sure, 96% of Americans won't care because they think it won't effect them. But it will. And don't give me the "all these people got rich during Bush's 8 years". People it's not the folks making 250k. I can't for the life of me figure why they get grouped in with the wall st ceos.

 

[bryanz]

why ?

 

[DOGS THAT BARK]

a couple additions the 250 K is for families not individual.

--more important is hidden taxes coming down on everyone regardless of income.

Wait till 2 years down the road when everyone that uses fuel for auto's- home or anything energy related. They will unequivocally see all their heating-cooling and fuel rates increase 50% minimum and prob closer to 100%.

Carbon taxes passed on to current suppliers of energy will be passed on to consumer.

O/gore/liberals prob with their Global Warming BS and greenie tech is same as its been in past--no one has been able to make it affordable.
I'd be the 1st in line to have my house ran completely on solar energy if cost was remotely feasable--so their solution is systematically drive up prices of fossil fuels rather than find way to make alternatives more affordable.

The 1st method already passed--but hidden extremely well--is they increased fees (taxes) on anyone wanting to drill for oil or gas on gov owned property. Its just the tip of iceberg if they get their energy bill passed--but not passed yet--as expect 0 support from GOP and tough sell to many moderate Dems.

But there is silver lining if your one of O's free-basers as he anticipates to give subsidies to the at taxpayors expense.

 

[WhatsHisNuts]

Saint, I completely understand where you are coming from in your last paragraph. $300k in Columbus, OH goes a hell of a lot farther than it could in SanFrancisco. Yes, there are places in this country where that kind of money is esentially "chump change", however, they are in the minority. When you are trying to determine the mean, you throw out the places on the far ends of the scale.

If you are grossing over a million every few years, you are rich. It is not my fault you decide to live where your money doesn't go far. I'm not giving them ay special consideration because the gas station attendants in San Diego aren't getting any either.

 

[BobbyBlueChip]

Carbon taxes passed on to current suppliers of energy will be passed on to consumer.

So is it your position that taxes will be passed onto the end user and paid by the consumer? So, when you post all those articles about the 25-30-50% of the population that pays no taxes, your not talking about the taxes that they pay that gets passed onto them?

Thanks in advance for your time

 

[saint]

Why doesn't the IRS consider changing the tax brackets? Why does it arbitrarily fall at 250k for a family for the top tax bracket? Why not push the upper limit to 750k or upwards?

 

[JOSHNAUDI]

Or change the word taxes to membership dues

 

[DOGS THAT BARK]

So is it your position that taxes will be passed onto the end user and paid by the consumer? So, when you post all those articles about the 25-30-50% of the population that pays no taxes, your not talking about the taxes that they pay that gets passed onto them?

Thanks in advance for your time

They'll be paying them in inceased consumer prices with exception of as I said Your base who will be will be getting subsides at tax payors expense--

Im might suggest you pay attention instead of :talk: like Scott.

I posted how you avert the next 4 years of increased energy prices--were paying attention or relying on the hope/change rhetoric?
http://www.madjacksports.com/forum/showthread.php?t=351054
Had you paid attention you could be Gumby proof also
Lets see thats about $6,000 in the till for hedge for future fuel increases in 2 months -the way I figure.

--or you can take your and Scotts approach--

--sit on sidelines-believing your leaders telling you economy was worse since great depression when it had 53 months of interrupted growth and hit all time --

--then jumped in when they got control and promised to "fix things"

--then doubled up when O was elected-- with total belief in his hope change rhetoric-

Hmm- Maybe now that he's tripled the debt and you think that is the answer-- its time to go all in and take any home equity loan and max out credit card advances and load the wagon on your convictions--ya think

--but then again you will have O to fall back on if your wrong--
--increased welfare/foodstamps--and fuel substidies for the "vernable"

I could have condenced this to --We all must live with consequences of our convictions.

 

[BobbyBlueChip]

So, the people that you say pay no taxes, in fact, pay taxes with the increase in consumer prices? That's the question that was asked - feel free to answer that one.

 

[bryanz]

Define Poor .... would anyone like a tissue ? how do some of you get by ? I suggest you work smarter.... Please, enough with the whining.... Get a grip man... Go get yours.... Hard for me to join a pitty party against social welfare, in this climate of out of control corporate welfare ! All this thread is about is "you"... You want your brand of socialism .

 

[Terryray]

In 2009 the top federal tax bracket is for income $372,950 or above (single, head of household, or married and filing jointly).

Obama is proposing tax increase on household incomes over $250,000, that's roughly the wealthiest 2% in the US.

Economists never use the term "rich" since it can't be rigorously defined. It's a term used by speakers for whatever agenda.

most informed observers ain't too broke up about this proposed tax increase because these wealthiest 2% incomes have been soaring last few decades as their tax rate (all federal taxes) has fallen. Top 1%, for example, their total federal tax rate has fallen from 37% to 31% in the last 30 years, according to the CBO.

Still, they pay a whopping amount of total federal tax, and more on a percentage basis than most other groups. Twice that of the middle class (who pay 14.2 percent of all the Federal taxes collected -- the Middle quintile you see below, incomes over $50,000). Figures here from 2005 (latest available, warning pdf)

analysts always divide incomes groups by quintiles, lowest 20%, second 20%, etc..

Lowest quintile: 4.3 percent
Second quintile: 9.9 percent
Middle quintile: 14.2 percent (Middle quintile is traditional definition of middle class, incomes starting at $50,000 in 2005)
Fourth quintile: 17.4 percent
Percentiles 81-90: 20.3 percent
Percentiles 91-95: 22.4 percent
Percentiles 96-99: 25.7 percent (top 4% , income starting at 126,300)
Percentiles 99.0-99.5: 29.7 percent (top 1%, income starting at 307,500)
Percentiles 99.5-99.9: 31.2 percent
Percentiles 99.9-99.99: 32.1 percent
Top 0.01 Percentile: 31.5 percent


But Obama is projecting deficits of 3% of GDP after economy returns to normal (5% unemployment and growth)--it was 2% of GDP in the last few years before this crisis--and his GDP projections are significantly rosier than blue chip economist projections.

So that almost certainly means tax increase on the "not so rich" coming in the future, perhaps folks in top 10%, incomes over $96,400.

 

[WhatsHisNuts]

Terry: That must not be from a Wayne approved site. The lowest group is paying much more than the 0% he regularly cites.

 

[saint]

So no one else thinks it's a bad idea for Obama to do something that will decrease home sales at a time when the housing market is struggling? Surely there are other areas that can be taken advantage of besides something that can only hurt the housing market (decreasing mortgage interest deductions)

 

[saint]

This message is hidden because bryanz is on your ignore list.

I'm sure what you are saying is really important. I guess since I didn't respond to whatever your first post was you felt the need to write a 2nd. :mj07: I'm sure it contributed absolutely zero to the conversation at hand which is why you are blocked in the first place asshat.

 

[BobbyBlueChip]

I'm sure what you are saying is really important. I guess since I didn't respond to whatever your first post was you felt the need to write a 2nd. :mj07: I'm sure it contributed absolutely zero to the conversation at hand which is why you are blocked in the first place asshat.

He was talking about how unfair this tax is and how you can restructure your loan to avoid the limitation

 

[bryanz]

I don't post for you or your response... I'm sure you won't see this..:mj07: who the hell do you think you are ?

 

[saint]

He was talking about how unfair this tax is and how you can restructure your loan to avoid the limitation

I'm sure it was a post about how the wealthy need to stop whining, etc. The same diarrhea. Besides, I aint gonna pay those loans, Obama's gonna pay em for me. And my mortgage too.

 

[saint]

This message is hidden because bryanz is on your ignore list.

What do you think, this is subway...free post reading after your first 9 are ignored? Only 6 more posts to go :mj07:

 

[Terryray]

Terry: That must not be from a Wayne approved site. The lowest group is paying much more than the 0% he regularly cites.

Sorry, I realized after I posted my stuff above that it is less than clear...

I moved between mentioning tax bracket (which involves just income) to most of the post, which concerned total federal tax rates, or effective federal tax rates--which is more than just income taxes.

Those effective federal rates are not just income taxes (which the bottom 49% of taxpayers don't even pay) but all other federal taxes--the biggest of which for those folks in lower quintiles pay is Social Security and medicaid witholding in their paychecks. For folks who don't work and don't pay income tax, the federal taxes they pay are small stuff like taxes on gas, telephone use, booze, and such.

The Tax Foundation reports that ?Broadly speaking, the 44 million zero-tax filers are: low-income, young, female-headed households, part-time workers, and beneficiaries of the $1,000 per-child tax credit."

and I should mention that I don't like Obama's proposed tax increases, I'd rather have tax cuts and budget cuts. But raising taxes on household incomes over $250,000 isn't all that bad an idea, for the reasons I gave--but I'd do it in other ways than raising their capital gains tax. That's just counter productive.

On housing, Obama's mortgage deduction cap would mean a taxpayer in the top bracket who pays $1,000 of mortgage interest (for example) would see a tax break worth $350 reduced to $280.

It really won't dissuade folks in that top 2% homeowners from buying, as the small amount of the mortgage deduction they get isn't a driver of sales at that top end of the market. So I expect the effect on builders and housing market to be rather tiny. But will have some effect, for sure.

I just don't like to see any tax increases of any type. Means goverment is getting bigger.

 

[bryanz]

What do you think, this is subway...free post reading after your first 9 are ignored? Only 6 more posts to go :mj07:

I have a strong feeling you are funny but this is not...... I know you wont see this...:kiss: