Genocide by any other name?

Chanman

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Sudan massacres are not genocide, says EU

Rory Carroll, Africa correspondent
Tuesday August 10, 2004
The Guardian

The EU said yesterday there was widespread violence in the Darfur region of Sudan but the killings were not genocidal, a potentially crucial distinction which underlined its reluctance to intervene.
"We are not in the situation of genocide there," Pieter Feith, an adviser to the EU's foreign policy chief, Javier Solana, said in Brussels after returning from a fact-finding visit to Sudan.

"But it is clear there is widespread, silent and slow killing and village burning of a fairly large scale. There are considerable doubts as to the willingness of Sudan's government to assume its duty to protect its civilian population against attacks."

He said in the absence of willingness to send a significant military force, the EU and others had little choice but to cooperate with Khartoum.

The announcement is bound to anger those impatient for stronger international pressure on Sudan.

Last month the US House of Representatives voted by 422 votes to nil to describe Khartoum's actions as genocide, a conclusion shared by several analysts who say there is no other term for the systematic slaughter, rape and expulsions.

But the White House, the African Union and groups such as Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International have so far avoided using the g-word. At least 30,000 people are thought to have died and 1 million displaced in what the UN has called the world's worst humanitarian crisis.

Genocide is defined as a calculated effort to destroy a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, but the debate over its meaning is political, not semantic.

The genocide convention, adopted by the UN in 1948, calls on signatories to "prevent" and "punish" genocide. If governments accept events in Darfur amount to genocide they would be obliged to intervene.

Given the risk of such a logistical and military challenge, that is something few governments are willing to contemplate.

Instead of sending troops the EU and US have called for support from the African Union, a pan-African body which Khartoum could not so easily brand imperialist.

Documents from the Clinton administration show that soon after Rwanda's slaughter started in 1994, officials were privately calling it genocide but refrained from doing so publicly lest pressure grow for a US deployment which the administration did not want.

In a separate development yesterday, Mustafa Osman Ismail, Sudan's foreign minister, said his government would take part in peace talks in Nigeria this month.

"We open the door wide to reach an agreement on the agenda and issues," he said.

"We don't have conditions and we won't accept prior conditions."

Sudan expected to meet a UN deadline to improve security and human rights by the end of the month, the minister added.

As the current chairman of the African Union, Nigeria's president, Olusegun Obasanjo, has invited Sudan and rebel negotiators to meet for talks on August 23.

Fighting flared in Darfur last year after local people rebelled against Khartoum, claiming discrimination and repression. Both sides are Muslim but they are ethnically divided.
 

djv

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30000 died. Try 700000 last 3 years. And if no one does anything there maybe 300000 more by year end. Just not enough oil there I guess. And most have wrong color skin.This is one of those hated dictators that need's removing. This makes Saddam look like a Angel.
 

Master Capper

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Chanman,

By far you post the most thought provoking ideas each day in your posts! I do not always agree with all of your thoughts but at least you can post opinions that disagree with your views, please keep up the good work!
 

gardenweasel

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"the bunker"
please remember...the u.n. is actually against "real" intervention.....there are countries that make huge profits out of sudan...oil and such....that are blocking u.n. resolutions that have any teeth.....

just another example of the u.n. and anan catering to dictators and factionalism because either anan is more concerned with keeping his cushy job or beacuse some of these countries are more concerned with the bottom line than genocide.......

and djv`s "oil" comment is ridiculous once again....sudan exports quite a bit of oil...it`s increasing it`s exports every year....they are projected at around 500,000 barrels per day by the end of 2005...

the u.s. is "obligated" to act in it`s own best interests....it is mandated to do so....not to be the humanitarian policeman for the world....

that`s supposed to be the u.n.`s job.....

a job that it stunningly inept at...
 

Eddie Haskell

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"...not to be the humanitarian policeman for the world." Unless of course, we need a rationalization to invade Iraq. Then we are the good guys with the white hats.

It continues to astonish me how the right will say its the UN's job when it fits their agenda yet ignore the UN when it does not. One of the basis for the invasion of Iraq was enforcement of UN resolutions yet we ignore the UN when they do not support an invasion of that country.

Weasel, apply your logic (we aint the worlds cops, thats the UN's job) to the invasion of Iraq.

Ed
 

MrChristo

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Sexlexia...
gardenweasel said:
the u.s. is "obligated" to act in it`s own best interests....it is mandated to do so....not to be the humanitarian policeman for the world....

Good question, Ed, but I'm even more confused about the first part of that sentence.

It's mandated to do so? I'll assume you mean by the people of the US who vote in the gov?
But still, it's a bit of a stretch, don't you think? Just because it's in the US's best interest, I wouldn't think that going out and trampling someone else to get it is all that well mandated!

Besides, by that logic, surely it was in Iraq's best interest to invade Kuwait?
It's in 'Palestine's' best interest to fight Israel.
Hey, it's in France and Germany's best interests to keep their armed forces out of conflict and citizens safe!??
 

dr. freeze

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because the US feeds the world and heals the world and pretty much has kept several nations from being eliminated from the earth.....what is in our best interest is just a bit different from what is in Iraq's or Palestines best interest
 

gardenweasel

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"the bunker"
exactly mr.c.........by it`s citizens...and in all of the above mentioned references you made,those exact circumstances are taking place...or have taken place....

you can diasagree with iraq...i say the wmd question is not yet a done deal....time will tell....

but....back to the point...

the government thought that invading iraq was the right thing to do......john kerry now says wmd`s or not,he agreed with that decision...

what do you think of that?....nothing would be different under kerry`s watch....and if you think that he would have gotten the france`s,russia`s and germany`s to climb on board,i`d like some of what you guys are smoking....

we also now know that because of economics,and some underhanded shenanighans at the u.n.,the france`s,russia`s germany`s of the world would have blocked invasion of iraq under pretty much any circumstances......much as they now appear to be willing to sit on their hands and let iran join the nuclear club....

looks like israel may have to take matters into their own hands.............again....to preserve THEIR own best interests....as well as their asses...

so,i say to you fine fellows,i would not want any u.s. government beholden to europe(hasn`t been right about anything in 75 years), the u.n. or any international body as far as national security is concerned........particularly any body that has nations such as cuba,sudan,libya,syria and suadi arabia on it`s human rights commission...

comparing a sovereign nation acting in what it believes is in it`s own best security interests and the mindless slaughter by a government of it`s own people is apples and oranges....imo...


check the u.n. charter...it`s purpose is to handle situations like sudan....and try and keep the peace....

well,if keeping the peace means stopping mindless slaughter... genocide....i`m in...

but,if it means letting rogue,terrorist friendly nations go nuclear,then i want no part of it....

hope that helps......
 
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MrChristo

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Sexlexia...
I'm not talking about the Bush/Kerry debate, gw, because I just don't know enough about them individually (esp. Kerry) to make a decision....I'm talking in more general terms.

Saying a gov/Pres has a 'mandate' to do what IT thinks is in the best interest of the nation is all well and good....when you agree with it!!

How about if Bush gets re-elected and he ups taxes by 10% across the board to a) fund the ongoing war, and b) get out of the huge deficit hole.
Would you be so understanding then?

By your defination a government can literally do no wrong!! Hey, they were elected fairly by the people (ha!!...And there's a whole new arguament there!! :) ), so they can therefore do what ever they like!!...As long as they tell you they think it's in the best interest of the country, hey, you effectively voted for it, like it or not!

I also didn't say ANYTHING about getting Europe to 'join in'. I'm simply stating the hypocracy of you saying it's fine for your gov to do whatever they 'think is best', yet at the same time deride France/Germany/Russia for doing what THEY believe is right!

Just because YOU and your president think it is right, that doesn't make it so!

PS. We agree on the UN, and we are obviously never going to agree on Israel, so I'm not even going there! :D
 

gardenweasel

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"the bunker"
i`m talking strictly about a sovereign nation acting in what it perceives as it`s own defense...whether it be preemptive or retaliatory....whether you agree or disagree..

were we right?...many think not...hopefully time will tell...

..was israel right to take out the iraqi reactor in the 80`s?....i`d certainly say yes...and if no one reigns in iran,and it looks as though that may be the case,it wouldn`t surprise me if something similar happens again...i hope it doesn`t come to that...

would it be wrong...maybe...but for israel,it`s a potential life and death issue....



was europe right to fall asleep on the nazi`s?....coming directly on the heels of ww1?....absolutely not...europe`s predilection for apathy can be every bit as scary as we cowboy americans` penchant for preemption...lol....

we may never know whether taking out saddam may have averted some disaster...

the question seems to be one of perspective...

if you were standing in america`s shoes,you might share that point of view...... rather than look back in regret for standing by while europe and the u.n. controlled our foreign policy....to a potentially disastrous result....

or maybe not...certainly many in this country prefer the european way of dealing with people that want to kill you...

but,we can agree to disagree....it seems be a question of perspective...

as always,i enjoy the discussion,mr c....

btw....you know where i`m coming from....my nationalistic point of view.......where are you from?.....
 

MrChristo

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Sexlexia...
Sitting here in Australia, gw. Tasmania to be exact....And, in some way I guess that can explain a few things.
I mean we have a state of abot 400,000 people. I'm in a 'city' (lmao!!!) of about 50,000 (Launceston)...so in some ways I guess we are more 'laid-back' and passive than a lot of the bigger/more populated cities around the world. (If that makes sence!).

Just on the patriotism/nationalistic thing, I have been to the US (about 9 years ago....LA, Vegas, SD (nice spot!), skiing in Colorado...stayed in a place called Escondito)...but anyway...I was amazed that almost EVERY house had a full scale American flag somewhere. I mean, we Aussie are a very proud and patriotic bunch, but my Aus flag boxer shorts are about the only rep of the flag I've seen in a household!! :D
You guys seem to be on a whole different level! (And there's certainly nothing wrong with that!)

Anyway...as you say, always good to have an decent debate without resorting to name-calling and abuse!

Oh, and just for the record 'they' (Muslim extremists) have killed us too. A Bali night-club was bombed in Oct. 2002 with the express purpose of killing Australians.

EDIT: Just because I said we were laid bacl and 'passive', doesn't mean we are a bunch of free-loading, peace-loving hippies either!!...Or back-country hicks!!....But I'm sure you know what I was geting at. :142lmao:
 
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djv

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Ya this group in the WH is a little confuseing. All the reason to go to Iraq they used. Now sound like what reasons we need for Sudan. And there is not enough oil yet. There way down the list. And lets not forget Cheney said possiable WMD were hid in Sudan.
 
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