I am so glad that we live in a land in which forums like this can exist where reasonable people can disagree in a reasonable manner...something I?m afraid I feel compelled to do today. I wasn?t going to allow myself to be drawn into discussions such as these, but after reading Nolan?s (and some other?s) comments, I feel I must have a say.
Nolan?you ask the question of why do we need a military presence in the Middle East, especially when it sparks such resentment in the area. If you examine the reasons rationally, I think you already know the answer to that. Our presence there far outweighs the consequences of us not being there...for us and for many nations. And obviously, we are there too because it is in our national interest...for the good of us as a people and a nation in terms of security, political stability and, yes, protecting our economic interests too (which actually are intertwined with the first two reasons). It is also because we are wanted there by our allies?*including* our Islamic allies such as Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, and others.
True, they resent having infidels on their soil, but make no mistake about it, we are wanted there. We are wanted there for their own, but identical to ours, national interests (listed above). They provide us with air bases and other facilities in order to keep our presence in the region. Just ask your average Kuwaiti citizen about what he thinks on the subject.
It?s amazing, but the present administration was catching heated flak primarily from Arab and Palestinian factions for its increasing refusal to get drawn into any quote, unquote, peace process. It?s ironic that in beginning a different posture from that of deep involvement that the previous administration took, we receive the loudest criticism and ultimately an attack by the same factions that wanted our nose out of things in the first place! Talk about a no win situation!
As to the Palestinian homeland issue you raise, while I truly do understand where your heart is on this, I feel there are deeper issues involved that are being smoke-screened by this seemingly "underdog" cause?a cause with which well-meaning and noble hearted people can easily identify, but are also easily mislead.
If it was simply an issue of an autonomous state, any one of the many powerful Islamic backed governments in the region could have long ago carved one out for the Palestinians. But as Nick pointed out, there's more to it than that. Certain areas of Jerusalem, and other areas within Israel are considered sacred in the Islamic faith (as well they are in the Jewish and Christian faiths), and it is this land that is wanted by the Islamic faithful.
The stated reason is to have this land serve as a homeland for the Palestinians?and I've no doubt that should they get their way, that is precisely to what purpose it would go. But in reality, the Palestinian homeland on that particular plot of ground is a secondary issue to the burning and fanatical desire by most Islamic people worldwide to have that spot occupied by Islamics and not by an infidel race of people such as the Jews.
The trouble today is that a sovereign nation, Israel, currently exists on this piece of real estate. A nation that was created, rightly or wrongly, through an agreed action of a member based world body of governments in 1948. (By the way, if anyone thinks this state was created by efforts of *only* the United States, you don't know your history.)
However, for it's involvement, for it's belief that it was voting for an "underdog" cause?that of a persecuted people?a people that were survivors of numerous racist driven attempts throughout history to exterminate them, the USA will always be branded as the Evil Satan. Fanatical causes always need an element such as this to provide fuel to the cause, and the U.S. conveniently fits this role.
That said, from the Islamic point of view the only way to liberate the "homeland" for the Palestinians is through the extermination of the Jews from their sacred land. And herein lies the true agenda for the goodly portion (true, not all) of the Islamic faithful in that part of the world?the extermination and annihilation of an entire race and population of people, the Jews.
EVEN if the Jews were somehow made to dissolve their state and vacate the land?even if they established an alternate state on the opposite side of the planet?even if they had no state at all?this agenda, this ?holy cause? would still exist. You don?t believe so?
Listen to the Islamic clerics?read the proclamations of Islamic governments?listen to the call from the Mosques and know that they call for the blood of Jews *everywhere*, not just in Palestine, but *everywhere*. It is a ?holy? call for the extermination of an entire race and population of people from the face of the earth.
You ask why should this nation care? You ask why don?t we just turn a blind eye and let it happen? Despite the obvious reasons of national interests already mentioned above, and despite the cynical view that it?s only for the oil, I?m just idealistic enough?just patriotic enough to think it?s also because this nation still stands for what is right?that it still stands against despicable evil such as this?the same evil that was horrifically spewed out in unspeakable violence against civilian men, women, and children of this nation just yesterday.
Who?s land was it first, who?s history is most germane, who?s ancestors did what to whom is not at issue in the face of this kind of sub-human evil?an evil that has the audacity to hypocritically cloak itself in the name of religion.
I for one want to stand with this nation against such human abominations that find justice in such cowardly and gutless actions as those of yesterday. I for one want to defend her against such enemies. I feel that most Americans feel this way too, and that is why we stand together as a nation against such evil, be it here, in the Middle East, or at the gas chambers in Auschwitz?it is simply the right thing to do as a human being.
Nolan?Nick?I respect and admire both of your usual well thought out approach in most everything I?ve ever read from you guys?and I?ll continue to do so, I?m sure, on many other issues. But on this issue, I urge you to re-examine your positions a bit?to think it all the way through, please. But even if you never change your opinion, I?ll still respect you guys and your right to hold a different one from mine. After all, we can still do so, can?t we? At least here in America we still can?thank God.
-dc
Nolan?you ask the question of why do we need a military presence in the Middle East, especially when it sparks such resentment in the area. If you examine the reasons rationally, I think you already know the answer to that. Our presence there far outweighs the consequences of us not being there...for us and for many nations. And obviously, we are there too because it is in our national interest...for the good of us as a people and a nation in terms of security, political stability and, yes, protecting our economic interests too (which actually are intertwined with the first two reasons). It is also because we are wanted there by our allies?*including* our Islamic allies such as Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, and others.
True, they resent having infidels on their soil, but make no mistake about it, we are wanted there. We are wanted there for their own, but identical to ours, national interests (listed above). They provide us with air bases and other facilities in order to keep our presence in the region. Just ask your average Kuwaiti citizen about what he thinks on the subject.
It?s amazing, but the present administration was catching heated flak primarily from Arab and Palestinian factions for its increasing refusal to get drawn into any quote, unquote, peace process. It?s ironic that in beginning a different posture from that of deep involvement that the previous administration took, we receive the loudest criticism and ultimately an attack by the same factions that wanted our nose out of things in the first place! Talk about a no win situation!
As to the Palestinian homeland issue you raise, while I truly do understand where your heart is on this, I feel there are deeper issues involved that are being smoke-screened by this seemingly "underdog" cause?a cause with which well-meaning and noble hearted people can easily identify, but are also easily mislead.
If it was simply an issue of an autonomous state, any one of the many powerful Islamic backed governments in the region could have long ago carved one out for the Palestinians. But as Nick pointed out, there's more to it than that. Certain areas of Jerusalem, and other areas within Israel are considered sacred in the Islamic faith (as well they are in the Jewish and Christian faiths), and it is this land that is wanted by the Islamic faithful.
The stated reason is to have this land serve as a homeland for the Palestinians?and I've no doubt that should they get their way, that is precisely to what purpose it would go. But in reality, the Palestinian homeland on that particular plot of ground is a secondary issue to the burning and fanatical desire by most Islamic people worldwide to have that spot occupied by Islamics and not by an infidel race of people such as the Jews.
The trouble today is that a sovereign nation, Israel, currently exists on this piece of real estate. A nation that was created, rightly or wrongly, through an agreed action of a member based world body of governments in 1948. (By the way, if anyone thinks this state was created by efforts of *only* the United States, you don't know your history.)
However, for it's involvement, for it's belief that it was voting for an "underdog" cause?that of a persecuted people?a people that were survivors of numerous racist driven attempts throughout history to exterminate them, the USA will always be branded as the Evil Satan. Fanatical causes always need an element such as this to provide fuel to the cause, and the U.S. conveniently fits this role.
That said, from the Islamic point of view the only way to liberate the "homeland" for the Palestinians is through the extermination of the Jews from their sacred land. And herein lies the true agenda for the goodly portion (true, not all) of the Islamic faithful in that part of the world?the extermination and annihilation of an entire race and population of people, the Jews.
EVEN if the Jews were somehow made to dissolve their state and vacate the land?even if they established an alternate state on the opposite side of the planet?even if they had no state at all?this agenda, this ?holy cause? would still exist. You don?t believe so?
Listen to the Islamic clerics?read the proclamations of Islamic governments?listen to the call from the Mosques and know that they call for the blood of Jews *everywhere*, not just in Palestine, but *everywhere*. It is a ?holy? call for the extermination of an entire race and population of people from the face of the earth.
You ask why should this nation care? You ask why don?t we just turn a blind eye and let it happen? Despite the obvious reasons of national interests already mentioned above, and despite the cynical view that it?s only for the oil, I?m just idealistic enough?just patriotic enough to think it?s also because this nation still stands for what is right?that it still stands against despicable evil such as this?the same evil that was horrifically spewed out in unspeakable violence against civilian men, women, and children of this nation just yesterday.
Who?s land was it first, who?s history is most germane, who?s ancestors did what to whom is not at issue in the face of this kind of sub-human evil?an evil that has the audacity to hypocritically cloak itself in the name of religion.
I for one want to stand with this nation against such human abominations that find justice in such cowardly and gutless actions as those of yesterday. I for one want to defend her against such enemies. I feel that most Americans feel this way too, and that is why we stand together as a nation against such evil, be it here, in the Middle East, or at the gas chambers in Auschwitz?it is simply the right thing to do as a human being.
Nolan?Nick?I respect and admire both of your usual well thought out approach in most everything I?ve ever read from you guys?and I?ll continue to do so, I?m sure, on many other issues. But on this issue, I urge you to re-examine your positions a bit?to think it all the way through, please. But even if you never change your opinion, I?ll still respect you guys and your right to hold a different one from mine. After all, we can still do so, can?t we? At least here in America we still can?thank God.
-dc
