Nick Douglass- a quick response to athletes taking a dive

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wondo

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Nick,

I liked your take on people who think sports are fixed. I think you may have attacked the one's who say that a little too personally, because I don't feel that a comment such as claiming a game is fixed is a reflection of one's character, but that's just my opinion. Half the people say that stuff just to get people fired up who lost. Anyway, that wasn't really the point of this....

I completely disagree with your statement that "Even college athletes get such great kickbacks from boosters that a few dimes is not worth risking their current fame."

I think this statement is about as far from true as you can get. Sure, we sometimes read about the high profile athletes that get perks and shady gifts from boosters, but that is not even close to the majority of athletes. Most athletes are not much different from other students, and in fact, until recently may have been in a worse financial position that many students at the same colleges and universities.

Athletes often over extend themselves financially to attend a university at which they could play a sport. And of course not all of the sports can offer full scholarships to their players even if the program is fully funded within NCAA regulations. Part of this problem was so bad that it was even addressed by the NCAA about 8 years ago (forgot the exact year, but around then) and the NCAA allowed athletes to take a job. It was one of the most ridiculous rules that the NCAA had imposed on athletes -- they couldn't take a job like the rest of civilized America. I don't know when you went through school, but I'm sure that others who were at college during that time period remember many of the athletes at smaller schools struggling to have spending money -- or atleast not having more than the average student.

Also, look at the cost of some colleges for these athletes that are their only to play their sport. They typically come from modest backgrounds as a whole and all of a sudden are surrounded by students whose parents can afford the $30k/year for that school, plus a new car and new clothes and spending money at will. On the other hand, the athlete gets the tuition paid, but their parents aren't necessarily in the position to support their son running around and doing the things that the 'regular' students are able to afford.

These athletes are very susceptible to taking small bribes to fix a game. Usually, from what I've encountered, is that they end up betting on themselves and running the scores up more, so that does go along with your ego theory.

College players are eager to give out information that will give their friends an edge in betting. Even if they don't go so far as to throw a game, they come dangerously close and more often cross the line when it comes to betting and their sports. Even on this board there are some people who are probably better off keeping some athletes' names out of their post when it relates to injuries and morale on the team. This sort of thing is in clear violation of NCAA rules.

Another collegiate issue that often arises is that not all athletes are very happy in their present situation and with their coach. But there's not always a lot that can be done about that becuase of lost scholarships, transfer periods, etc. Those athletes, from my own experience, are much more prone to giving out information, even if it's not so far as shaving points.

What about the athletes that bet on themselves? Most of the time this isn't a secret from their teammates, so the entire team knows that they need to cover a 30 pt spread, and won't let up until it's done. Those games don't necessarily have readily-available information out, but friends and the local bookie know what's going on.

The typical college athlete is not a high profile person. Who can readily name the guards at UMBC? Sure, we may follow and track the Dukes and UCLAs of the world, but many many teams slip through the cracks. I firmly believe that games are being fixed in college. And I believe that it extends into the professional ranks as well, although I don't think it reaches the elite level of the MLB, NBA, NFL, etc. But the minor leagues are surely fixed from time to time, and anyone that has played in the minor leagues of any of those sports has surely seen a teammate's or opponent's career ruined by his gambling -- forcing him to throw games until he breaks even.

I liked your column and I understand the point you were getting at. I especially agree with the closing statement, pretty much accept it or find a new hobby. Very true.

-Wondo
 

alienx

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Agreed, Wondo. It makes me worried that signs of fixed games are so obvious and that very few people is complaining about it and the ones that are not happy w/ the going are being accused of paranoya or justification to bad handicapping skills. I am not a good handicapper. So I guess I could be a good example to what Nick was explaining.
Nolan has raised this issue several times this year: The integrity of the games are at stake. You can do so much without being very obvious infront of millions to help a team. But small things here and there, effects the outcome of the game. NFL, NBA, NCAA and other leagues have their small ageandas and the officials are very aware of how the outcome of the games are going to effect the league, the sport, the game, and their future. It's hard to fix a game but very easy to help one team or another in this conditions.
What makes me relly mad is not the effy, soft and could go eather way kind of rules the leagues have, or not the moronic officiating at times, but the spectators, fans and the sportswriters that are just fine w/ all these. Fans and spectators are in it for the entertainment so we can excuse them but the sportswriters and the press should be the first to step up and point the importance of the integrity of the sports but this heartless assholes will just say : "that was close" for a bad call or try to justify bad officiating that just happened infront of millions in their same idiotic ways, over and over and keep their jobs.
Nick, same way you have mentioned that you are loosing your respect to those cappers that are just complaining about certain things, I lost a bit of my respect to you for being an articulate person that have a platform to raise questions and speak your mind, and you would be on the other side, just ignoring what is going on. Not expecting a crusade from you or anybody. Don't think I can save the world of sports from the dirty games that are played now but, as an individual I ask questions when I see something wrong. There needs to be more questions asked, more complains, before any change happens. Learned this in a different language, but I will try to translate:
Need increased quantity before the quality changes [bad translation-law of physics: ie. water temp needs to rise to 100 celsius(quantity) before it starts boling (quality)]

respectfully,

PS. Thanks for the advise the other day saved me couple hundered. And no I don't think that game (memphis - orl) was fixed.


[This message has been edited by alienx (edited 12-05-2001).]
 

SixFive

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Mar 12, 2001
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Games are fixed at every level in every sport. No doubt about it. I'm certainly not saying every game is, and the percentage that are is very small. The key is to be on the right side of the fix. People who had the Jags in MNF might think they were fixing. I knew not to bet on them, however, because of what they did last year against the Ravens. Anybody else remember that game? An obvious fix. It's harder to remember the games we win when we are on the right side of the fix because the losses hurt so bad and are burned into our memories.


Lastly, the next time a tout calls you and says he has the catchword, "INFORMATION" reply to him the only true information is knowing which athletes on which side are fixing/throwing/shaving, and if he doesn't have that INFORMATION that he can take a flying leap or whatever expletive u prefer.


------------------
It's far better to be LUCKY than good.
 

Nick Douglas

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Oct 31, 2000
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Thanks for the responses. Everyone except SixFive makes some good points. Just kiddin', bud.

The reality is that allowing athletes to work full time jobs on the side is a terribly risky proposition. I believe they are now able to work part time jobs, but if they worked full time jobs most major colleges would just set the athlete up with a high paying job where they don't even have to show up except to collect their paycheck. That happened quite frequently before the rule against athletes working was instituted.

In my experience athletes did not live like paupers at all. Not even close. EVERYTHING is paid for. EVERYTHING. Every meal, every living expense, etc. is paid for. USC had a $18,000 tuition when I went but the "total cost" per year was around $28,000. Athletes got the equivalent of that $28,000 if they were on scholarship, so that is $12,000 to pay for rent, food, etc.

The reality of the situation is that star athletes want to live like star athletes so many live beyond their means by spending money at clubs, on jewlery, etc. I don't mean that to be an indictment of star athletes or their character because most men put in that position would fall victim to that environment.

Also, I would not call it fixing a game if an athlete bets on his own team. How on earth does that compromise the integrity of the game? One thing people miss when talking about gambling in America is that football players in Europe regularly bet on themselves and nobody thinks a thing of it. That is partly because there is no pointspread on European football (soccer). Shit, if congress wants to do serious work in stopping fixed games they should ban point spread betting in Nevada. Fixing games is only looked at as a "harmless" crime when your team wins but they fail to cover. If there is no spread to cover, athletes would be far less likely to lose a game outright for a little bit of cash.

The situation for a fix has always been the same. Amateur athlete in a position of greatly determining the outcome of a team sport on a team that is favored by a large pointspread takes money to ensure that the team does not cover the spread. Calling any other situation a fix in present day is stupid. To be on a team that is heavily favored and to be a large factor in determining the outcome you have to be a star, often a major college star. You are naive if you think major college stars don't live a sweet ass life with few monetary problems. The one exception I would add is that athletes with kids at home do struggle for money but that is a whole other discussion.

One final thing I will add is that I am sure most, if not all, of you have played sports at some point in your life. I play in a rec hockey league and I know damned well there are some days when I just don't have it and we may lose or tie a team we should have smoked. It happens. Last year the eventual champs of our league went into the last game of the regular season needing only a tie against us (fourth place team) to win first in the regular season. They drubbed us the previous time we met, 7-1, but we beat them in the game that mattered most to them, even though we had zero incentive in the standings. Weird crap happens all the time on every level of sport but that doesn't mean the fix is always in.
 
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wondo

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I agree with most of your points about major colleges, and I guess my arguement is just that I don't consider most colleges "major" by any means, and even within the major schools are minor sports. Overall, the majority of student athletes affected are not in the public limelight. Plus you look at DII and DIII schools and NAIA and you have all sorts of different issues. Even at USC and Stanford you'll see top notch baseball players not making even close to the $28,000 because you can do the math and it's not there for them period. My background is more with baseball and there are some major differences between that and the other sports, no matter what school. Anyway, intereting discussion that doesn't really have an end, but it's a much needed break, atleast for me, from getting my ass handed to me all week. ...... and of course every game I lost was fixed! j/k

And p.s., sorry about your name mispelled....

Wondo
 
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