Nicklaus' comments on golf technology and the golf ball.

[buddy]

On other issues of the state of the game, Nicklaus tackled the hot buttons of technology, its influences on the game and the altering of courses to compensate for player?s increased length.

?You don?t Tiger-proof a golf course,? Nicklaus stated flatly. ?You don?t ever Tiger-proof a golf course.?

?You take a golf course and tighten down the driving area, and force them to play better golf shots.?

?They haven?t been doing that ? they?ve just been going back,? he said referring to the trend of lengthening courses. ?The more you go back to the golf course, the more the advantage is to Tiger.

"I won two British Opens at St. Andrews and I promise you every bunker was in play when I played. The golf ball did not go beyond those bunkers, you couldn?t hit it beyond the bunker. Anybody.?

?And I promise you Tiger wouldn?t hit it beyond the bunkers if he was playing the same equipment we were playing. He played a different golf course than I won on. That?s the only objection that I have is the golf course becomes obsolete.?

So what does one do in situations like this?

Nicklaus and his people at Muirfield have taken several holes on the course and altered them slightly. While they haven?t necessarily tacked on yards upon yards of length to the holes, they have made the kinds of changes Nicklaus would hope to see all designers implicate.

While the par-5 11th was lengthened by some 24 yards, a fairway bunker which used to sit some 330 yards off the tee at the par-5 7th was moved forward by 50 yards, thereby adding a bit of spice to the tee shot by bringing it into play for the long hitter.

?I?m making it more demanding for the guy to hit the long drive to put it in there,? Nicklaus said.

In addition, the two other par-5s on the course, the 5th and the 15th were adjusted around the greens, by taking areas of rough out and replacing those areas with fairway, similar to the situations at Pinehurst No. 2 during the 1999 U.S. Open.

Doing so, claims Nicklaus, will prevent the ball from ?sticking close for an easy chip shot.?

On the subject of the golf ball itself, Nicklaus points to the 11 courses that he has developed in the Desert Mountain area in Arizona over the last couple years as a sign of the times.

?They?re all obsolete,? Nicklaus exclaimed. ?What do we do? This is ridiculous. How can you build a golf course and two years later it?s obsolete??

?Only due to one thing ? golf ball.?

On a final note, the golfing legend added his predictions for the future: ?Something will get done,? he said. ?Somebody will wake up.?

That?s what was on Jack Nicklaus? mind leading into the 26th edition of his Memorial Tournament. That?s what he thinks.

Anybody want to argue?

 

[KotysDad]

If newer/better golf balls and equipment are the problem, then why doesnt someone design the golf courses of the future in the following way.....

Say you have a 460-yard par 4. At about the point in the fairway 270 yards from the tee box, a water hazard exists and is about 50 yards in length. Certainly no one is going to try to hit over it, no matter how good the balls and equipment are. You will be forced to play target golf, even more so if you include another hazard that ends at about the 200 yard distance from the tee. This way, everyone is playing the same course the same way and you would put an emphasis on shot making. Of course you can always play around with different designs around the green, but the point is to keep people from hitting rocket lasers down the fairway by placing a hazard there. I would make the pros play target golf on every hole, that way the long and short hitters are playing the same course and both have to execute the same shots all around.

 

[dawgball]

Personally I think Tiger would still be playing low numbers. Maybe not as low but still low. I would like to see Tiger play some of the courses with older equipment to see what would happen.

Also in my humble opinion, I think that the improved equipment helps the piss-poor golfer like me more than the pros.

The PGA is the answer. The restrictions they put on equipment is what is going to keep courses challenging. Imagine the MLB if they were using the best aluminum bats out. Every pitcher would be dead, but Hammerin' Hank would also be kissing his record goodbye.

------------------
Sic 'em
dawgball

 

[Bonovox]

Jack is simply wrong. He's bitter. the players are bigger, stronger and more flexible than ever before. Flexibility is the key to distance.

Until the new Titleist came out, the balls were almost all the same length as back in the day. In fact, before surlyn covers, the old balata balls were shorter than those used in the 50s and 60s. Golf Digest did a huge test of everything last year. The golf balls from 1999 traveled almost the identical distance as the balls from 1950. The only difference is the cover. Now you can have distance balls with soft covers -- that is the huge invention.

Golf Digest did the same with irons. The Callaways from the 90s hit the same length as old school clubs from the 50s. The difference was the sweet spot -- now players without a pure swing can hit the ball a long way. That is the biggest change today -- average hackers can hit the ball a long way without a pure swing. The forgiveness is the main invention.

It is true that the distance has been gained has been off the tee. The new, lighter drivers with thinner faces do hit the ball a long way. But so what. The longest drivers are rarely the best players. Do you know how driving distance is calculated? Two drives a round (taken from par 5s) are counted. That's it.

When Tiger first broke on the scene, he was #1 on tour in driving with a 1989 King Cobra model driver. Since he switched his driving distance has gone down dramatically and his accuracy has improved 500%.

The big change in the past 50 years is the condition of the athletes and more importantly, the CONDITION OF THE COURSE. Watch an event on tv. Most of the drives bounce of the fairway like concrete and roll forever. The fairways are shaved and in perfect condition, something most amatuers don't see - and something the pros back in the day certainly didn't see.

The strength and flexibility of the players today is amazing. Distance is not gained by strength, but by body torque. Tiger gets so much distance because of swing speed generated by body torque. Duval, Love, Els, all these guys would outdrive the playes of yesterday using their equipment. Strength does not equal distance.

The last point can be seen with tennis. When the widebody rackets came out, very few pros switched to them. Why? Unabashed power is meaningless if it can't be controlled. The main beneficiary was the average park player. The game became so powerful because of strength training and size. Just like in golf. Which is why Jack is right in narrowing the course. That's the way to temper the distance.

The main beneficiary in all of the technology boom is the everyday hacker. He can go out and buy a driver and Titleist Pro V 1 and add 30 yards to his drive. Most pros still use blade irons, very few use oversize irons.

The biggest invention is the new Titleist ball, but the biggest change is the condition of the courses. Jack is on drugs if he thinks Tiger couldn't clear the bunkers if he played with the old equipment. The players are bigger, stronger and more importantly, much more flexible than they were back in the day.

 

[KotysDad]

Dawg,

I agree. I think the new equipment is fine for you and me, and the PGA does need to regulate it better for the pros.

I would love to see them have a "turn back the clock" tournament and make all the players play with hickory shafts.

 

[KotysDad]

Bono,

You are absolutely right about the correlation between flexibity and distance. At 6'0" 195 lbs, I feel I should be able to hit the ball farther off the tee than I can, but I have trouble getting the flexibility out of my hips and shoulder turn. Of course, working behind a desk all day doesnt help much on developing that flexibility.

 

[Bonovox]

I'm 5'9, 165 and I can drive the ball over 300 at will. It's all about body torque and timing!

 

[KotysDad]

Originally posted by Bonovox:
I'm 5'9, 165 and I can drive the ball over 300 at will. It's all about body torque and timing!

Well you got me beat by an average of 75 yards a drive. I never feel like I hit the ball squarely for one, and when I do I dont feel like I am hitting it with any pop.

If you can give me any tips or pointers on how I can improve and learn to use body torque, then I would be all ears.

 

[Bonovox]

The truth of the matter is, Tiger could par most courses with a broom and a plastic easter egg -- so could a young Jack, so could Bobby Jones, so could Hogan, so could Snead. Jack had advantages over Snead, and Tiger has advantages over Jack.

The same rings true in any sport. McGwire would set records with a dead ball, Gretzky would break records with an old school stick and Jordan would still be great in old Converse.

The great players are great regardless and later generations have some advantages. But they also have some disadvantages. You can't convince me that Orr and Howe didnt' have an easier time scoring on goalies with no mask and limited gear than Gretzky did. You can't convince me that baseball players in the 30s didn't have an advantage over today's players when they didn't have to face black pitchers, relief pitchers or specialty pitchers. And you can't convince me that the best golfers of yesteryear didn't have an easier time playing far fewer players in much worse physical shape than they are today.

Times change. Jack needs to be realistic. His courses aren't outdated, I've played most of them. But he doesn't build tournament courses anymore, he builds country clubs. And he's right, they're outdated for pros - but they were never made for pros! Let the pros play Oakmont with shaved greens and high rough, or Pinehearst #2 with real shaved greens (not the easy greens they hd for the Open) and the winner will be +5.

The major change has been in the courses themselves. Do you all remember when Steve Jones won the Open? All the players were pissed because they thought the USGA was out to embarrass them. Embarrass them? That's what every weekend hacker faces every time out. These courses can be made tough, but the NBC and CBS doesn't want to see a winner at +6.

 

[Bonovox]

Pointers? Tough without seeing your swing. I can give you a great stretch, however. Now that my golfing career is over and I work behind a desk, I have to do this every day, and it only takes about 3 minutes.

Stand a foot away from the wall or cabinet and put your arms out like you're calling pass interference in a football game but bend your elbows. Now without moving your feet, turn your body and try to put your hands flat on the wall behind you. Do this in both directions. If you can't go all the way around, do it every day and you'll be there in 2 weeks max. You'll be amazed at how much back flexibility you gain with this drill.

As far as hitting the ball, I would give you the same suggestion I give all my friends. Instead of spending xxx dollars on a driver or the new golf ball take a couple lessons. A good pro can help you in just a few short lessons. He can teach you to hit out to the right which is where you get all your power and he can teach you how to properly rotate your shoulders and transfer your weight.

But a couple of pointers that most people can fix easily to gain more distance:

1) cut down your backswing. I know most people think they are parallel, but they all go past parallel which causes you to lose SO much distance and push the ball to the right. Try to take a half swing and see how far you take the club back

2) If you're not hitting the ball square, concentrate on the ball. If the ball is a clock, hit the ball at 7:00 - take the club inside and hit the ball low and slightly inside. That should square you up a little more.

3) Roll the right hand over and finish. So many slices can be cured by just rolling the top hand over and hitting inside the ball.

Those are the only general comments I can give. Lessons usually aren't that expensive, maybe $30-45 for a half hour. But they are well worth it. You will have much more fun and pleasure with a good swing.

 

[buddy]

Bonovox,

I liked your golf tip about striking the ball at 7:00.

I did that repeatedly the last time I played.

However, the results were unsatisfactory as I started the round at 1:30.

I know..... poor attempt at humor.

Bon, in all seriousness, I truly enjoy your remarks. Thanks for responding.

 

[KotysDad]

Bono,

Thanks a bunch. The stretch will probably help me the most, but I am a little confused about one of your tips. The one about hitting the ball at 7:00. Are you a left-handed golfer???? Being right-handed, the 7:00 position (assuming I am looking down at the ball that way I would look down at a clock) would be low and on the front side of the ball, but for a leftie it would be low and on the inside of the ball. Am I missing something? Please tell me you're a leftie, or else I am really confused as to what you mean by hitting it at the 7:00 position.

Also, I tried something tonight that actually added 10% distance to all my irons and woods. One of my problems is that I laterally slide forward too much on my downswing and my clubface stays too open at impact. So, to counter that, I took my front foot and closed it to perpendicular to the target line. This way my feet point at 12 and 2 O'clock instead of 10 and 2. It stops my lateral slide and allows me to close the clubface on the way thru the ball. I hope this isnt a temporary fix, because I was really happy with the way I was hitting the ball by doing this. Hopefully, your stretching exercise will help a little more.

Thanks again, I appreciate it.

 

[redsfann]

Bonovox--

I'm 5'9" 165 as well, and usually hit my drives 270-280-- once I've played a few times and gotten my swing back from the winter time off.
The funniest thing to me about hitting it that far is the look on my playing partners faces when I do hit it. Being as small as I am, almost everyone I get paired up with at the courses I play is bigger than I am.
Now, if I would only get better around the greens, find more accuracy with my irons, learn to putt better, etc, etc--- I just might drop the handicap a few notches from the 15 that it currently is......

 

[Bonovox]

Buddy - I have spent many rounds on Pittsburgh courses that took more than 6 hours to play. Your humor was too ironic for me

I actually spent a few summers working at Pittsburgh country clubs and love the area.

RedsFann - There is no better thrill than to outdrive all my friends who are 6'1 to 6'4 by 20-50 yards. They all laugh when I swing because I swing so much harder than they do because I keep my lower body so quiet. My favorite thing to do when I was playing was to wear some long shorts with a t-shirt and a backwards cap and go to the course looking for a game. There are so many golfers out there with such a big ego, money was so easy. I would use a pink Flying Lady ball and take all their money. You want to see something hilarious? You should see their faces when a guy 6 inches shorter than them outdrives them by 30-50 yards with a pink ball!

KotysDad - Sorry my clock reference was so vague. Stand behind the ball and look at it. 12:00 is the very top of the ball and 6:00 is the very bottom. Most people try to strike the ball at 6:00 - try striking it at 7:00 and turn over your top hand like swinging a tennis racket. That's all I meant. Sorry for the confusion.

But you did bring up an interesting point. One of the most common flaws in people's swings is the lateral slide. Much more so than the evil reverse pivot the tv guys like to talk about. There are some great drill to get rid of that.

1) Stand completely flat footed and hit balls without picking either foot off the ground. It's tough to do at first, but you'll get used to it. Don't shift your body weight at all, just swing with your shoulders. Make sure you stay down because it forces your body to pull up. Once you get the timing down you will realize you are hitting the ball almost as far as you normally do. It's amazing. Do that with 50 balls on the range. Then hit balls with a little body movement. You will find that your slide will be reduced because it will feel so much more exaggerated after you didn't move your weight at all.

2) the other drill is to put a range ball under the front part of each shoe so you are standing on the balls. The result is the same, if you try to move your weight you will fall over. It takes a few swings to get the timing down when you're standing on range balls, but it will force you to not slide. Then, after 50 or so, try to hit balls. Your slide should be reduced. It may take a few trips to the range, but those are great drills.

The slide is one of the most common faults in golf. It's so hard to convice yourself that you can hit it much farther by not moving your legs. When you hear pros talk about staying "quiet down low" that means they want their legs to stay quiet and swing with their upper body.

Hope this helps. Grab a lesson when you can and I'll be happy to answer anyone's comments or questions.

 

[buddy]

Bon,

I live a stone's throw from Edgewood CC.

Worked at Churchill Valley CC as a club cleaner in the early 60's.

Play Alcoma GC 2-3 x a year.

Have to install a door in Lower Burrell, Pa. this afternoon. On my way to the job, will be driving past the main gate of Oakmont CC.

At the '62 Open, Oakmont CC., I was a young lad of 15. Was able to see one of the practice rounds. Saw Tommy Bolt throw a 4 iron about 50 yards and found Mason Rudolph's errant tee shot on #8. I watched Gary Player 3 putt the 9th when a youngster in the gallery said, "Mr. Player, keep your head still when you putt." Player re-putted the ball and rimmed the cup. Walked over to the boy, took out his wallet and gave him $20. I still admire Player to this day for his humanity. Lastly, still have vivid memory of Nicklaus, Palmer and Player leaving the 10th tee. In 1962, Nicklaus was big and burly and could hit it a long way.

 

[SixFive]

Another good tip is to save the aforementioned XXX dollars on the newest 800 cc driver. Go to the course and practice your short game. U can go before work, after work, or on your lunch break. Strokes are shaved on the green, not from the tee. GL! Whoever said, "Drive for show and putt for dough" was a very wise man.

------------------
It's far better to be LUCKY than good.

 

[rrc]

Bono,thanks for all the great tips. Took a lesson yesterday and one of the things we worked on was hitting the ball at 7:00. Sure helps in eliminating coming over the top.Thanks again.

 

[redsfann]

Bonovox--

I remember one time going to the course straight from helping a friend build a deck in his backyard, and looking like you are talking about. Only 2 of my friends showed up, so the starter paired us up with another guy.
He had on 300 bucks worth of clothes, 150 dollar shoes, had all the hottest clubs and thought he was a bad-assed golfer.
Now, I'm only a hacker at best, and there was no money on the round, but I knocked it around for a nice 80, my buddies shot in the upper 80's, and if that guy playing with us broke 90, I'd have been suprised.
He was so pissed, I don't think he said 3 words to any of us on the back 9... We tell that story every once in a while to great laughter......

[This message has been edited by redsfann (edited 06-01-2001).]

[This message has been edited by redsfann (edited 06-01-2001).]

 

[DOGS THAT BARK]

DAMN we got some long knockers in this crew

Would personally love to be able to say I averaged 260 down the pipe 90% of time but unfortunately I can't.
The mention of being paired up or playing with new group for 1st time is interesting point especially when money will be coming into play and as most know handicap cards are very inaccurate as most will lean to one side or other depending on which stronger,their lust for money or their ego which if you know the people you should have good idea before you tee off.If you don't know the folks here are some observations that will help determine their ability.
As he is putting on his shoes if you notice left side of left shoe is worn unproportional beware.As he is putting on his glove look for excessive wear in heel pad area.This will point to poor grip ie gripping too tightly or regripping during swing.
Next peek in the bag.
Driver 1st.Look for diaganal streaks on sole of club made by tees.If they are there chances you are hooked up with a slicer.Beware if they run verticle.
Irons: Take a look at the longer irons. If they look new compared to the other clubs thats a good sign for you.Finally,brag on his brand selection of clubs and ask if you may see one.Pull his 7 iron and take a look for excessive wear on grip where right thumb is placed.If you find it good sign for you again.Dictates excess grip pressure which will not permit him to ever fully release the club.
Now you've pretty well have opponants pegged before terms are dictated.Add 3 strokes to what you assume to be fair and your in business.

 

[Bonovox]

Buddy - I spent a few summers at Wildwood CC and Chartiers CC. I loved Oakmont, one of the best courses I've ever played.

DTB - very amusing. Good thing you've never looked in my bag

I grip the chit out of my clubs and wear through grips and gloves at an alarming rate. I grip the driver loosely, but all my other clubs I like a tight grip for control.

I must admit, I have made a lot of money off people who are so egotistical that a kid dressed poorly can't hit a ball. I never pull out a handicap card, I always say to him "How many do you want?" This puts the ball in the egotists court. He's surrounded by his friends and wants to be a stud in front of a kid. And whatever he says, I add a couple. The usual line goes like this. "So, kid, we usually play for a few bucks." "Sure, I'll play your usual. How many strokes do you want." (followed by laughs from his friends) "Give me 2 a side." "How about I give you 3 a side so it's fair." (more laughs) "Sure, kid." After the second hole when I'm 2 up there is always a press. I will usually take both sides, the 18, and a couple of presses. Sometimes the guy gets pissed, but most of the time he likes to watch me hit the ball

When I'm playing, I run the lines of Goodfellas (slightly altered) over and over again. "Don't like my golf shoes, f*ck you, pay me. Don't like my long shorts, f*ck you, pay. Don't like my spiky dyed hair, f*ck you, pay me. Don't like my Gen X music, f*ck you, pay me."

On that subject I have learned who to play against and who not to.

Who to bet:
1) Anyone who calls me sport or kid
2) Anyone who has a hat that matches the brand of club he has
3) Anyone with perfectly clean golf shoes
4) Anyone who tells you he's a scratch golfer.
5) Anyone who brags about the sticks they use
6) Anyone who has never gripped their 3,4,5 irons.
7) Anyone with a professional staff golf bag
8) ANYONE smoking a cigar or who mentions how hot the beer girls are

Who not to bet:
1) The guy who spends 45 minutes on the putting green and 5 minutes on the range
2) The quiet guy
3) The guy who has a simple carry bag
4) The guy who hits blade irons
5) The guy with a well worn 2-iron
6) The guy with the simple visor, decent shirt and well worn golf shoes