Nothing good to say about yourselves? Just lie!

kosar

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Lies, Damned Lies, and Convention Speeches
Setting Kerry's record right?again.


Half-truths and embellishments are one thing; they're common at political conventions, vital flourishes for a theatrical air. Lies are another thing, and last night's Republican convention was soaked in them.

In the case of Sen. Zell Miller's keynote address, "lies" might be too strong a word. Clearly not a bright man, Miller dutifully recited the talking points that his Republican National Committee handlers had typed up for him, though perhaps in a more hysterical tone than anyone might have anticipated. (His stumbled rantings in the interviews afterward, on CNN and MSNBC, brought to mind the flat-Earthers who used to be guests on The Joe Pyne Show.) Can a puppet tell lies? Perhaps not.

Still, it is worth setting the record straight. The main falsehood, we have gone over before (click here for the details), but it keeps getting repeated, so here we go again: It is the claim that John Kerry, during his 20 years in the Senate, voted to kill the M-1 tank, the Apache helicopter; the F-14, F-16, and F-18 jet fighters; and just about every other weapon system that has kept our nation free and strong.


Here, one more time, is the truth of the matter: Kerry did not vote to kill these weapons, in part because none of these weapons ever came up for a vote, either on the Senate floor or in any of Kerry's committees.

This myth took hold last February in a press release put out by the RNC. Those who bothered to look up the fine-print footnotes discovered that they referred to votes on two defense appropriations bills, one in 1990, the other in 1995. Kerry voted against both bills, as did 15 other senators, including five Republicans. The RNC took those bills, cherry-picked some of the weapons systems contained therein, and implied that Kerry voted against those weapons. By the same logic, they could have claimed that Kerry voted to disband the entire U.S. armed forces; but that would have raised suspicions and thus compelled more reporters to read the document more closely.

What makes this dishonesty not merely a lie, but a damned lie, is that back when Kerry cast these votes, Dick Cheney?who was the secretary of defense for George W. Bush's father?was truly slashing the military budget. Here was Secretary Cheney, testifying before the Senate Armed Services Committee on Jan. 31, 1992:

Overall, since I've been Secretary, we will have taken the five-year defense program down by well over $300 billion. That's the peace dividend. ? And now we're adding to that another $50 billion ? of so-called peace dividend.

Cheney then lit into the Democratic-controlled Congress for not cutting weapons systems enough:

Congress has let me cancel a few programs. But you've squabbled and sometimes bickered and horse-traded and ended up forcing me to spend money on weapons that don't fill a vital need in these times of tight budgets and new requirements. ? You've directed me to buy more M1s, F14s, and F16s?all great systems ? but we have enough of them.

I'm not accusing Cheney of being a girly man on defense. As he notes, the Cold War had just ended; deficits were spiraling; the nation could afford to cut back. But some pro-Kerry equivalent of Arnold Schwarzenegger or Zell Miller could make that charge with as much validity as they?and Cheney?make it against Kerry.

In other words, it's not just that Cheney and those around him are lying; it's not even just that they know they're lying; it's that they know?or at least Cheney knows?that the same lie could be said about him. That's what makes it a damned lie.

Before moving on to Cheney's speech, we should pause to note two truly weird passages in Zell's address. My favorite:

Today, at the same time young Americans are dying in the sands of Iraq and the mountains of Afghanistan, our nation is being torn apart and made weaker because of a Democrat's manic obsession to bring down our commander in chief.

A "manic obsession to bring down our commander in chief"? Most people call this a "presidential election." Someone should tell Zell they happen every four years; he can look it up in that same place where he did the research on Kerry's voting record ("I've got more documents," he said on CNN, waving two pieces of paper that he'd taken from his coat pocket, "than in the Library of Congress and the New York Public Library combined.")

The other oddball remark: "Nothing makes me madder than someone calling American troops occupiers rather than liberators." Huge applause line, but is he kidding? The U.S. troops in Iraq are occupiers. Even Bush has said so. If he doesn't understand this, then he doesn't understand what our problems are.

Cheney followed Zell, and couldn't help but begin with ? not a lie, but certainly a howler: "People tell me Sen. Edwards got picked for his good looks, his sex appeal, his charm, and his great hair. [Pause] I said, 'How do you think I got the job?' "

Funny, apparently self-deprecating line, but does anybody remember how he did get the job? Bush had asked Cheney to conduct the search for a vice presidential candidate, and he came up with himself. He got the job because he picked himself.

Later in the speech, Cheney made this comment: "Four years ago, some said the world had grown calm, and many assumed that the United States was invulnerable to danger. That thought might have been comforting; it was also false."

Who are these people who thought this? The implication is that it was the Democrats who preceded Bush and Cheney. But it was Bill Clinton's administration that stopped the millennium attack on LAX. It was Clinton's national security adviser who told Condoleezza Rice, during the transition period, that she'd be spending more time on al-Qaida that on any other issue. It was Rice who didn't call the first Cabinet meeting on al-Qaida until just days before Sept. 11. It was Bush's attorney general who told a Justice Department assistant that he didn't want to hear anything more about counterterrorism. It was Bush who spent 40 percent of his time out of town in his first eight months of office, while his CIA director and National Security Council terrorism specialists ran around with their "hair on fire," trying to get higher-ups to heed their warnings of an imminent attack.

"President Bush does not deal in empty threats and halfway measures," Cheney said. What is an empty threat if not the warnings Bush gave the North Koreans to stop building a nuclear arsenal? What is a halfway measure if not Bush's decision to topple the Taliban yet leave Afghanistan to the warlords and the poppy farmers; to bust up al-Qaida's training camps yet fail to capture Osama Bin Laden (whose name has gone unmentioned at this convention); to topple the Iraqi regime yet plan nothing for the aftermath?

"Time and again Sen. Kerry has made the wrong call on national security," Cheney said. The first example he cited of these wrong calls: "Sen. Kerry began his political career by saying he would like to see our troops deployed 'only at the directive of the United Nations.' " Yes, Kerry did say this?while he was a student at Yale, not quite as he "began his political career." Is there evidence that George W. Bush said anything remarkable, whether wise or naive, while he was at Yale?

The second example of Kerry's wrong calls: "During the 1980s, Sen. Kerry opposed Ronald Reagan's major defense initiative that brought victory in the Cold War." We've been over this?unless Cheney is talking about the Strategic Defense Initiative, aka the "star wars" missile-defense plan. It may be true that SDI played some role in prompting the Soviet Union's conciliation, though it was at best a minor role?and wouldn't have been even that, had it not been for Mikhail Gorbachev. But two more points should be made. First, lots of lawmakers opposed SDI; almost no scientist thought it would work, especially as Reagan conceived it (a shield that would shoot down all nuclear missiles and therefore render nukes "impotent and obsolete"). Second, Kerry voted not to kill SDI, but to limit its funding.

"Even in the post-9/11 period," Cheney continued, "Sen. Kerry doesn't appear to understand how the world has changed. He talks about leading a 'more sensitive war on terror,' as though al-Qaida will be impressed with our softer side." A big laugh line, as it was when Cheney first uttered it on Aug. 12 before a group of veterans. But Cheney knows this is nonsense. Here's the full Kerry quote, from an address to journalists on Aug. 5: "I believe I can fight a more effective, more thoughtful, more strategic, more proactive, more sensitive war on terror that reaches out to other nations and brings them to our side."

In context, it's clear that "sensitive," a word that has several definitions, is not meant as a synonym for "soft." And Cheney, who is not a stupid man, knows this.

"He declared at the Democratic Convention," Cheney said of Kerry, "that he will forcefully defend America after we have been attacked. My fellow Americans, we have already been attacked." Where in Kerry's speech did he say this? Nowhere.

"Sen. Kerry denounces American action when other countries don't approve," Cheney continued, "as if the whole object of our foreign policy were to please a few persistent countries." No, that's not it. Kerry thinks that other countries should go along with our actions?that a president must work hard at diplomacy to get them to go along with us?because going it alone often leads to failure. Cheney should ask his old colleague Brent Scowcroft or his old boss W's father about this. Or he should simply go to Iraq and see what unilateralism has wrought.
 

DOGS THAT BARK

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Out of curiousity would you share with us the author of article.--for the record I did not mind what Zell presented but cared little for way he presented it.
 

ironlock

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DOGS THAT BARK said:
Out of curiousity would you share with us the author of article..


He deleted it on purpose.

Kosar- Landslide bud. You heard it hear first. I guess common sense is still common. Just not on this board, or I guess...in Florida. Keep it up though, your little personal crusade. Your changing alot of minds here, even mine.

What a joke.

Hope you cooned em tonite.

Iron.
 

kosar

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DOGS THAT BARK said:
Out of curiousity would you share with us the author of article.

No, I will not. I stopped citing authors because it always seemed to prompt responses from people like you and Freeze along the lines of ' not credible, liberal author', even though often that was far from the case.

Is there anything presented as factual in the article that you disagree with?

Iron,

I'm not trying to change anybodys mind any more than you are over at the other forum talking about Pinnacle. It's just discourse. Nobody is likely to change anybody elses mind.
 
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kosar

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BobbyBlueChip said:
kosar,

In Vegas this weekend again? Are you out of harm's way? and is the little lady protecting the goods again?

LOL- No! I'll be here for this one. In fact, I got a huge ration of shit about that AGAIN last night. As far as harms way, it's too soon to tell.
 

ironlock

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Kozy-
I hear ya. I just like ya better when you talk about things you know something about...like sports betting, or pet food. ;)

Hope your roof is ok.

Iron.
 

Turfgrass

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The Kerry/Edwards plan for winning the presidency seems to revolve around a few central themes:


My patriotism is being attacked by the evil Republicans. (it isn't, and never has been)

Right off the bat last night, sKerry said "For the past week, they attacked my patriotism and my fitness to serve as commander-in-chief." (Don't bring up my Senate voting record. This is all about my Vietnam service record. Any mention of my Senate voting record is an attack on my patriotism) Sorry, folks. That's a lie. It's the Max Cleland lie. There was not one single speaker at the Republican National Convention attacked John Kerry's patriotism. In their dishonest desperation, the Democrats are resorting to simply repeating over and over what they know not to be true.

They didn't serve in Vietnam, I did (So what...neither did Bill Clinton, and his opponents in '92 and '96 were both war heroes)

Then sKerry continued with his nonsense: "I'm not going to have my commitment to defend this country questioned by those who refused to serve when they could have and by those who have misled the nation into Iraq." So...There you go! It's the leftist standard "If you didn't serve in Vietnam you can't comment on anyone who did" line. First of all Senator Kerry, I thought whether you served in the military or not didn't matter? Kerry had no problem with Bill Clinton, who dodged the draft outright. Does is sound to you like the Kerry campaign is getting desperate? They know they cannot refute the message, so it's time to attack the messenger. Is this all they have? Are we going to have to sit through two months of the same broken record over and over? Ahhhhh yes ... 'fraid so.

President Bush misled the nation on Iraq (He didn't, and the evidence exonerates him)

And what of this nonsense that we were "misled" on Iraq? Didn't we just learn that two government reports have now exonerated President Bush on intelligence used as the basis to invade Iraq. There was no misleading. You can only mislead someone if you know to be untrue what you are telling them. If anything, The Poodle is the one misleading people. Don't expect the mainstream media to call him on it, though.

Where's the beef? What are their issues? ...they've got nothing to talk about, and it shows.
 

DOGS THAT BARK

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for the record the article Lies, Damned Lies, and Convention Speeches was by Fred Kaplan.

heres a few more of his truthful fact filled articles

Holiday in Cambodia
The "Christmas Eve" attack on Kerry is cheap and almost certainly wrong.
By Fred Kaplan
Posted Monday, Aug. 23, 2004,

Spies Like Goss
How much of a hack is Bush's CIA nominee?
By Fred Kaplan
Posted Tuesday, Aug. 10, 2004

and my fav

Rolling Blunder
How the Bush administration let North Korea get nukes.

By Fred Kaplan
 

djv

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Well whats up with gambling being a target. Seems this adminastration feels gambling not only supports the drug economy. That would be in illegal. But it might have terror links. Are these guys for real or just going to say chit and see if it stinks I mean sticks. This Carl Row or or what ever you call him must hate most Americans.
 

shamrock

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dtb, would you answer Kosar question? His there any facts in the article regarding the defense items ie:M1 tank, f14 etc. etc. that are wrong? I've done some research, seems on target for me.
 

dr. freeze

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Come on, we all know that no good democrat would ever lie!!!!

I can't believe how low some of you will go in attacking and accusing a veteran of lies!!!
 

DOGS THAT BARK

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Smamrock I am inclined to agree with you--they are bunched together in other packages--I would say,as I believe you made note of a while back--You can take anyones congressional record and nit pick it show just about what you want.I would say these were spun for all they were worth---but looking at his over all record it is equally tough to find any good points.Voting with Kennedy 94% of the time is hard to defend.
 

shamrock

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That's what I really appreciate about guys like you dogs, you have your views, like we all do, but at least you admit the truth. I generally do my best to do that also. Senator Miller I believe did not only his party, but the country a disservice by being so ridiculously divisive. Someone said Kerry voted against all these defense systems in another thread. I said also many republicans including Cheney voted against m1 tank, f14, f16 etc. etc. but nobody listens to the truth.

At the same time I honestly told guys like yourself and garden, 6 months ago there are legitimate reasons to attack Kerry, his record voting & his inexcusable absenteeism on key votes. I don't understand why republicans didn't go after those issues rather than soil the guy regarding Vietnam.
 

dr. freeze

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Kerry is weak on defense....granted context is spun out of proportion by Miller but nothing different from what the dems have been doing for my whole lifetime anyway

they assert now that republicans are scaring americans (you make the call if you think terrorism isn''t a real threat) after decades of scaring old folks about social security and blacks about civil rights and implying that anyone for tax cuts is against working class people over and over ad nauseam

Vietnam IMO is fair game after Kerry decided to run his campaign on disgracing the battlefield and hey the veterans who have a different story fought for their right to speak just as much as anyone did....and when John Kerry came back and sold out the troops in Vietnam and contributed towards veterans being spat upon his record on the military is fair game

i say expose his elitist ass......i dont want a guy running for president who thinks he is above and beyond everyone else...i can't believe the dems nominated such a buffoon....why couldnt you at least get Wesley Clark in there....even if he DID almost start WWIII by bombing the Russians.....or Gore....Al Gore would be way better than the best of the 9 fools that run altogether

and a trial lawyer running for VP....a guy who made his money taking advantage of cripples...who in one sentence tells you there are two Americas yet came from nothing to make millions (albeit by screwing over doctors, but he still did do it)...and then tells you he is going to make health care more affordable after suing doctors based on deceit and lies about medicine and disease

the heartache this man has caused and the precident he has set undermining our justice system are grounds for jailtime, not the White House
 

djv

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There problem is most have no idea when voteing on some of these things if there going to be what we need at the time. And these votes by many are based on what does it do for my state. Then they shout how American they are. And of course much is just all BS and how to get re-elected. You guys Dem and Reb a like are smart enough to know that.
Now lets see the B 2 how does that help stop a person with alittle plasitc on his belt in a croweded airport you get the idea. Some these guys just vote for same old chit when they know it's over the hill. To me the ones that vote no and ask for some better answers are the smart ones. Anyone can be a rubber stamp and we got to many in congress right now..
 
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