Author: conan
Subject: RE: echols-mundine
I think the over looks good. Mundine is essentially a defensive boxer (however with a big punch). He will be fitter now than against Ottke. Echols is a tough bastard. So I'd go over.
YOu can get 1.7 on Echols on Centerbet currently. -248 translates to a measily 1.4. But this is a fight to stay away from. Mundine is too unpredictable.
conan
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Author: gw again....what a mouthy s.o.b..(lol)
Subject: that stoppage by ottke
has me shaking my head....the guy was down for minutes and went to the hospital..from all accounts,ottke stalked him most of the fight.....and there`s no debating ottke`s power.....lucia rijker may hit harder...
the home venue is a huge plus.....but the guy is opening at better than a 2-1 underdog.....
i wish i had seen one of mundine`s fights....he`s a talker....
but,not being nationalistic,it`s a little higher level of competition in the states than in europe....not saying that the top guys like calzaqhe aren`t on a par with anybody...he is...i just think that the general competition with many latins coming from hotbeds of boxing like mexico make the states a little sterner test than europe at the current time... and he hasn`t really stepped out and fought any top guys until ottke....
home venue is important....but i still see mundine as somewhat of a ?.....
methinks that echols will realize that decisions in foreign countries are not easy to come by.....and he will come to close the show....mundine`s supposed to be an excellent boxer....
i hope this damned thing is televised in the states...i`d love to see it....
don`t misconstrue this as anti-aussie.....am a big fan of jeff fenech and loved rocky mattioli years ago(damn that maurice hope-lol)....just would like to see young mundine with my own eyes....i know what echols brings to the table..not having seen mundine,i really have no frame of reference...
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Author: conan
Subject: RE: that stoppage by ottke
Yo john
Here's my take on that Ottke knockout. Mundine is in his 13th fight. Not 13th as a pro, his 13th fight at all. 2 Amateur fights and 11 pro fights. He's fighting the best defensive fighter in the world, Ottke, who is unbeaten in 30 pro fights and had an amateur record of 286-20 or something similar. But despite it being his 13th fight, and despite having a point deducted for practically nothing and despite being in Ottke's backyard (the supposedly corrupt German system), Mundine is winning on points. Go figure. But, to beat Ottke you have to chase him all over the ring and by the end of the 6th, Mundine was only fighting in fits and spurts. He was sucking it in big time. In the 10th Ottke caught Mundine flush, with a short right as Mundine was coming in. It was a good punch and although Ottke is no big hitter, it caught Mundine with his momentum coming forward. It spun Mundine's head around and sent him on his way to the canvas.......
.....but on his way down Mundine caught himself. Instead of crashing to the canvas, you could see how his mind had control of his body again and he sort of unrolled gently like an isomat. His head hit the canvas gently, he looked up once, then closed his eyes and for maximum dramatic effect, let his arms fall dead straight out to the sides, like he was Jesus nailed to the cross and moved no more.
I watched that replay maybe 10 times, and I'm absolutely convinced he took a dive. He may have been hurt a little bit, but I've seen enough dramatic KO's in slow motion to see when a guy is really seriously hurt. The punch simply wasn't big enough. The guy is fighting at his natural weight, he doesn't have to sweat it out to make the weight. He is however, what we call in Australia, a "Show Pony". A guy that likes to make a lot of noise, be the centre of attention, have people talking about him. And so lying there like Jesus nailed to the cross and pretending to be near death and getting carted off to hospital is perfectly consistant with "The Man" as he has called himself in both rughby league and boxing for years.
And so there you have it. A man, with a killer right, who in just 13 fights has learnt to outbox one of the craftiest boxers around with over 300 fight experience, yet, when push comes to shove, may just not want to be there anymore. This fight is not about Echols, his performance will be consistant with all his others, it's about Mundine, and his attitude to the fight. And fukk knows what Mundine is going to do.
If it was Ottke again, I'd be backing Mundine at any non-favourite odds. But against a big psychotic puncher like Echols, well I'm keeping my money in the jar.
I didn't take it as being anti-aussie. If you want to bet on an Aussie, go bet on Danny Green vs Markus Beyer. Green has got the goods, punch, skill and ringsmarts in spades.
cheers
conan
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Author: Scott
Subject: hmm...a dive?
Well, could be..I haven't seen even the clips. I know that there are some kids playing in the park across the street that hit harder at lunchtime than Ottke. So, I guess it's either really bad whiskers, or a dive. I get the impression you mean a dive as in "quitter" dive. It's funny, because I have taken so much heat over the years on various message boards because I STILL believe that Moorer quit like that against Foreman...the man fell on his but, and then backwards, dramatically, almost Christlike, staring up at the ceiling thinking "Screw it, let the man have his night, I'm not motivated enough to get up" It wasn't a KO punch, even if it was hard.
Well, anyhow. Echols hits extremely hard, and he will DEFINITELY knock the spirit out of Mundine before he does his chin some damage, if what you are saying is true.
I wish we all could see all the fights across the world so we could get a better idea of the competition.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Author: conan
Subject: Article in smh
Hi All,
for those who are interested, here's an article from Syndey's leading newspaper about how Mundine claims he was an arrogant ***** going into the Ottke fight and didn't train properly, and ran out of legs. This time he said he's got it right. For me, the most interesting thing was that he said he's been getting advice from Mayweather Sr. Now a week aint a long time to train with someone, but it shows a degree of seriousness on his part.
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/07/26/1059084265556.html
I'm very curious what we'll see in this fight. But I still am not bettting on it.
conan
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Author: gw again
Subject: RE: Article in smh
if mundine is the boxer some have indicated,and is smart enough to pick his spots and not get into a punchout,maybe he has a shot...
a very long layoff for echols....throw in a very minor gun shot wound in the interim and new trainers messing around with his style.....long layoffs are almost always an extreme detriment to a fighter......i can`t remember the last time i saw a guy look real sharp after being off for over a year...and mundine has stayed active....recent examples:
lennox....eric harding(ouch).....zab judah.....
i`d include vargas(who i thought wasn`t sharp,but,vanderpool`s layoff was even longer than fernando`s).....lennox and judah won,but,imo,looked like they were way off their game...
if mundine is as talented as some here indicate, has some ring smarts and fights the right fight,i expect echols to struggle a bit.....
if mundine ever has a shot at beating echols,this is it.....
conan`s over 7 rounds prop may be a goodie....
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Author: Scott -Subject: RE: Article in smh
I forgot about Echols getting shot..that's right. That could very well matter..I wonder if his punch has lost some zip.
I think Vitaly's punch was lessened by his surgery.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
some varied opinions and decent info from around the world....most of these guys are boxing savvy.......except for that moron,g.w.
:shrug: ......
g.l.
Subject: RE: echols-mundine
I think the over looks good. Mundine is essentially a defensive boxer (however with a big punch). He will be fitter now than against Ottke. Echols is a tough bastard. So I'd go over.
YOu can get 1.7 on Echols on Centerbet currently. -248 translates to a measily 1.4. But this is a fight to stay away from. Mundine is too unpredictable.
conan
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Author: gw again....what a mouthy s.o.b..(lol)
Subject: that stoppage by ottke
has me shaking my head....the guy was down for minutes and went to the hospital..from all accounts,ottke stalked him most of the fight.....and there`s no debating ottke`s power.....lucia rijker may hit harder...
the home venue is a huge plus.....but the guy is opening at better than a 2-1 underdog.....
i wish i had seen one of mundine`s fights....he`s a talker....
but,not being nationalistic,it`s a little higher level of competition in the states than in europe....not saying that the top guys like calzaqhe aren`t on a par with anybody...he is...i just think that the general competition with many latins coming from hotbeds of boxing like mexico make the states a little sterner test than europe at the current time... and he hasn`t really stepped out and fought any top guys until ottke....
home venue is important....but i still see mundine as somewhat of a ?.....
methinks that echols will realize that decisions in foreign countries are not easy to come by.....and he will come to close the show....mundine`s supposed to be an excellent boxer....
i hope this damned thing is televised in the states...i`d love to see it....
don`t misconstrue this as anti-aussie.....am a big fan of jeff fenech and loved rocky mattioli years ago(damn that maurice hope-lol)....just would like to see young mundine with my own eyes....i know what echols brings to the table..not having seen mundine,i really have no frame of reference...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Author: conan
Subject: RE: that stoppage by ottke
Yo john
Here's my take on that Ottke knockout. Mundine is in his 13th fight. Not 13th as a pro, his 13th fight at all. 2 Amateur fights and 11 pro fights. He's fighting the best defensive fighter in the world, Ottke, who is unbeaten in 30 pro fights and had an amateur record of 286-20 or something similar. But despite it being his 13th fight, and despite having a point deducted for practically nothing and despite being in Ottke's backyard (the supposedly corrupt German system), Mundine is winning on points. Go figure. But, to beat Ottke you have to chase him all over the ring and by the end of the 6th, Mundine was only fighting in fits and spurts. He was sucking it in big time. In the 10th Ottke caught Mundine flush, with a short right as Mundine was coming in. It was a good punch and although Ottke is no big hitter, it caught Mundine with his momentum coming forward. It spun Mundine's head around and sent him on his way to the canvas.......
.....but on his way down Mundine caught himself. Instead of crashing to the canvas, you could see how his mind had control of his body again and he sort of unrolled gently like an isomat. His head hit the canvas gently, he looked up once, then closed his eyes and for maximum dramatic effect, let his arms fall dead straight out to the sides, like he was Jesus nailed to the cross and moved no more.
I watched that replay maybe 10 times, and I'm absolutely convinced he took a dive. He may have been hurt a little bit, but I've seen enough dramatic KO's in slow motion to see when a guy is really seriously hurt. The punch simply wasn't big enough. The guy is fighting at his natural weight, he doesn't have to sweat it out to make the weight. He is however, what we call in Australia, a "Show Pony". A guy that likes to make a lot of noise, be the centre of attention, have people talking about him. And so lying there like Jesus nailed to the cross and pretending to be near death and getting carted off to hospital is perfectly consistant with "The Man" as he has called himself in both rughby league and boxing for years.
And so there you have it. A man, with a killer right, who in just 13 fights has learnt to outbox one of the craftiest boxers around with over 300 fight experience, yet, when push comes to shove, may just not want to be there anymore. This fight is not about Echols, his performance will be consistant with all his others, it's about Mundine, and his attitude to the fight. And fukk knows what Mundine is going to do.
If it was Ottke again, I'd be backing Mundine at any non-favourite odds. But against a big psychotic puncher like Echols, well I'm keeping my money in the jar.
I didn't take it as being anti-aussie. If you want to bet on an Aussie, go bet on Danny Green vs Markus Beyer. Green has got the goods, punch, skill and ringsmarts in spades.
cheers
conan
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Author: Scott
Subject: hmm...a dive?
Well, could be..I haven't seen even the clips. I know that there are some kids playing in the park across the street that hit harder at lunchtime than Ottke. So, I guess it's either really bad whiskers, or a dive. I get the impression you mean a dive as in "quitter" dive. It's funny, because I have taken so much heat over the years on various message boards because I STILL believe that Moorer quit like that against Foreman...the man fell on his but, and then backwards, dramatically, almost Christlike, staring up at the ceiling thinking "Screw it, let the man have his night, I'm not motivated enough to get up" It wasn't a KO punch, even if it was hard.
Well, anyhow. Echols hits extremely hard, and he will DEFINITELY knock the spirit out of Mundine before he does his chin some damage, if what you are saying is true.
I wish we all could see all the fights across the world so we could get a better idea of the competition.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Author: conan
Subject: Article in smh
Hi All,
for those who are interested, here's an article from Syndey's leading newspaper about how Mundine claims he was an arrogant ***** going into the Ottke fight and didn't train properly, and ran out of legs. This time he said he's got it right. For me, the most interesting thing was that he said he's been getting advice from Mayweather Sr. Now a week aint a long time to train with someone, but it shows a degree of seriousness on his part.
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/07/26/1059084265556.html
I'm very curious what we'll see in this fight. But I still am not bettting on it.
conan
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Author: gw again
Subject: RE: Article in smh
if mundine is the boxer some have indicated,and is smart enough to pick his spots and not get into a punchout,maybe he has a shot...
a very long layoff for echols....throw in a very minor gun shot wound in the interim and new trainers messing around with his style.....long layoffs are almost always an extreme detriment to a fighter......i can`t remember the last time i saw a guy look real sharp after being off for over a year...and mundine has stayed active....recent examples:
lennox....eric harding(ouch).....zab judah.....
i`d include vargas(who i thought wasn`t sharp,but,vanderpool`s layoff was even longer than fernando`s).....lennox and judah won,but,imo,looked like they were way off their game...
if mundine is as talented as some here indicate, has some ring smarts and fights the right fight,i expect echols to struggle a bit.....
if mundine ever has a shot at beating echols,this is it.....
conan`s over 7 rounds prop may be a goodie....
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Author: Scott -Subject: RE: Article in smh
I forgot about Echols getting shot..that's right. That could very well matter..I wonder if his punch has lost some zip.
I think Vitaly's punch was lessened by his surgery.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
some varied opinions and decent info from around the world....most of these guys are boxing savvy.......except for that moron,g.w.
:shrug: ......g.l.
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