Sowell on Taxes

DOGS THAT BARK

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Thomas Sowell

Can Republicans Talk?: Part II

Guess who said the following: "It is incredible that a system of taxation which permits a man with an income of $1,000,000 a year to pay not one cent to his Government should remain unaltered."
Franklin D. Roosevelt? Ted Kennedy? Nancy Pelosi?
Not even close. It was Andrew Mellon, Secretary of the Treasury under conservative Republican President Calvin Coolidge.
What was Mellon's point? That high tax rates do not necessarily result in high tax revenues to the government. "It is time to face the facts," he said. Merely having high tax rates on large incomes will not bring in more tax revenues to the treasury, because of "the flight of capital away from taxable investments."

This was all said in 1924, in Mellon's book, "Taxation: The People's Business." Yet here we are, more than 80 years later, still not facing those facts.

It is not just a question of what Andrew Mellon said. It is a question of hard facts, easily checked in official documents available to all-- and ignored all these years.

Internal Revenue Service data show that there were 206 people who reported annual incomes of one million dollars or more in 1916. But, as the tax rate on high incomes skyrocketed under the Woodrow Wilson administration, that number plummeted to just 21 people reporting a million dollars a year in income five years later.

What happened to all those millionaires? Did they flee the country? Were they stricken with fatal diseases? Did they meet with foul play?
Not to worry. Right after Congress enacted the cuts in tax rates that Mellon had been urging, there were suddenly 207 people reporting taxable incomes of a million dollars or more in 1925. As Casey Stengel used to say, "You could look it up." It is on page 21 of an Internal Revenue publication titled "Statistics of Income from Returns of Net Income for 1925."
Where had all the income of those millionaires been hiding? In tax-exempt securities like state and local bonds, among other places. Mellon had urged Congress to end tax exemptions for such securities, even before he got them to cut tax rates. But he succeeded only with the latter, and only after a political struggle with those who made the same kinds of arguments that are still being made today by those who cry out against "tax cuts for the rich."

Still, one out of two is not bad, when it comes to getting Congress to do something that makes sense economically, rather than something that looks good politically.

The government, which collected less than $50 million in taxes on capital gains in 1924, suddenly collected well over $100 million in capital gains taxes in 1925. At lower tax rates, it no longer made sense to keep so much invested in tax-exempt securities, when more money could be made by investing in the economy.
As for "the rich"-- who really were rich in those days, when $100,000 was worth more than a million dollars is worth today-- those in the highest income brackets paid 30 percent of all taxes in 1920 and 65 percent of all taxes by 1929, after "tax cuts for the rich."

How can that be? Because high tax rates on paper, that many people avoid, often does not bring in as much tax revenue as lower tax rates that more people actually pay, after it is safe to come out of tax shelters and earn higher rates of taxable income.

The investors do this because it makes them better off, on net balance, even after they pay more money in taxes on incomes that have gone up. More important, the economy benefits when there is more investment in things that create more jobs and rising output.

None of this was unique to the 1920s. The same scenario played out again in later years, during the Kennedy, Reagan and Bush 43 administrations.

But economic success is not the same as political success. As former House Majority Leader Dick Armey put it, "Demagoguery beats data."
As long as the voters keep buying the "tax cuts for the rich" demagoguery, politicians will keep selling it. And it will keep selling as long as it goes unanswered. The question is whether today's Republicans understand that as well as Andrew Mellon did back in the 1920s.
 

StevieD

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What does this BS artist think would be the optimum tax rate? Would it be the 90% in the Kennedy years or the 70% in the Reagan years? It seems to me that these crooks that have been wrong every step along the way could at least come up with a number.
 
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Chadman

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I'm a little slow this morning. What is Sowell suggesting, that tax cuts for the rich are not a sensible approach? Or that they are? Or is he not really suggesting anything at all, as he mentions when the wealthy are taxed more heavily on their income, they have the means and ability to change how they make their income and how they report their income - resulting in not being hurt no matter what?

I'm starting to see a pattern in Sowell's opinion writings. He sort of makes an opinionated-based statement about an issue, without mentioning other more important factors that have a direct affect on the issue he's talking about (like the Iowa judges issue, previously posted here), or throws up some fuzzy reasoning to cloud the issue and try to keep his point alive in the maze.

The one issue that's rarely talked about when it comes to the tax rates and the wealthy is that NOW, the wealthy control a HUGE part of the incomes in this country, much more than ever before. The percentages are staggering. This has to come into account when trying to determine REAL fairness in the tax system. A majority of the money controlled by the few should be concerning to anyone not being a member of the few. And now, considering they can have unfettered influence on our electoral process through their personal accounts and their corporate accounts, the benefits will go even more in their direction.

In my opinion, anyway.
 

StevieD

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Chad, you hit on some very important points. Especially the Redistribution of Income the country has suffered for the the past 10 to 20 years. If you look at the spread between the top execs and the average workers pay that has been growing out of control. Not only that but the more money we put in these top execs pockets the less money goes back into the economy. Guys like Sowell should be aware of this and they publish this bull shit to confuse the issue. Simple. Put money in the working mans pocket and he will spend it. Put it in the rich man's pocket and it stays there never making it back into the economy. If they want to control the vast majority of money then they should pay the vast majority of taxes. Don't forget, these people are not harmed by fees like the working man. It is just the type of smoke screen that the insurance companies and other shysters love.
 
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DOGS THAT BARK

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I think he makes valid point--from personal standpoint he's dead on.

I cut my capital gains to next to zero in 2009 with only thing left -interest on checking account.

Was simple process--and am sure many others didor will do the same.

They can borrow 30 cents of every dollar they spend on someone elses dime.
 

THE KOD

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I think he makes valid point--from personal standpoint he's dead on.

I cut my capital gains to next to zero in 2009 with only thing left -interest on checking account.

Was simple process--and am sure many others didor will do the same.

They can borrow 30 cents of every dollar they spend on someone elses dime.

...............................................................

Yeh its the neocons way of sucking the goverment tit.

Some people stand in line for help paying their heating bills this winter.

Meanwhile DTBlackgumby plays his capital gains game to avoid income tax.

There is no differance here from the hypocrite DTBlackgumby. He just stands in a differant line.

My work here is done.
 

Chadman

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I think he makes valid point--from personal standpoint he's dead on.

I cut my capital gains to next to zero in 2009 with only thing left -interest on checking account.

Was simple process--and am sure many others didor will do the same.

They can borrow 30 cents of every dollar they spend on someone elses dime.

I think I agree with you - and I suppose him, as well. You both seem to understand - as do most wealthy people - how to move money around to avoid paying more than you want to. I'm guessing our household income is probably somewhat similar to yours, and am aware of how to move money around based on who is knocking at the door and when, although clearly we're not where we were a couple years ago, with less income for me and paying for college out of pocket.

That's why, in my opinion, the poor-me attitude of above middle class people - and ESPECIALLY the upper 1% or upper 1% of the 1% - who make most of the money in the country - really rings hollow in many situations. There simply are financial avenues and opportunities that can be taken advantage of that middle and especially lower class incomes can not take advantage of.

I'd happily pay less in taxes if I was only concerned with my own personal bottom line. But I'd like to think I'm realistic and realize that in our real world, in a free and safe country of opportunity, that what the government takes from me affords me all of those things. Do I wish I could pick and choose where my tax money went? Sure. Do I have an opinion about where it should be best spent? Sure. Do you and I agree about that? Nope. While we're probably not that far off idealistically, we wouldn't completely agree.

Bottom line - to this story and your follow up - the wealthy, and you and me, can partially control how much money comes out of our pockets. Moreso the wealthy, but we have choices. Many don't, especially these days. And that is the difference, and why I say this opinion is not really that visionary, or important. Much like his other one about the judges, which completely avoided the real reason they were all voted out of office.
 

Trench

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America is fast becoming a plutocracy. The top 1% of Americans now control 50% of the wealth in America. I suppose you could argue that the next wealthiest 19% of the people control an additional 35% of our wealth and at least that gives us the pretense of a democracy. But what about the remaining 80% of us who must squabble over a mere 15% of the wealth of this great nation?

Perhaps that's enough for guys like Dogs because he's got his 40 acres and a mule, but there's no getting around that fact that ultimately, it's a recipe for economic failure on a national level.
 

DOGS THAT BARK

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you left out who pays the taxes--and looks like your base isn't doing squat.

<TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD height=3 width=1></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top width=784>
top_50__of_wage_earners_pay_96_09__of_income_taxes.Par.0008.ImageFile.jpg
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--on those looking out for themselves--

from "the archives" political charity
http://www.madjacksports.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2545395#post2545395

Above has tax returns from the the "2 America's" pres candidates Gore and Kerry--showing them stiffing charity for """"ZERO""""" while doing the same ole liberal crying about those greedy ole conservatives (also shows the chartible donations (10's of thousands) of (Cheney/Bush) for comparison.

ONCE AGAIN--its rhetoric vs realilty/all hat no cattle.

It's really mindboggeling how these liberal icons can pull off such a grift on their sheep.

Wonder what Gore and Kerry's think when they were on that podium preaching-
-I know what they envisioned :)

Ace%20Dance.gif



A few #'s


Gumby's 2002 return--
http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_b...tax_return.pdf

Gave less than 1/2 of 1% to charity--of course he was still paying off those credit cards.

Biden a whooping $195 to chairty
http://www.taxhistory.org/thp/presre...Biden_1998.pdf

--and common knowledge on Kerry and Gore

"Two America's"-Kerry tax returns (1995 & 1991)have 2 years where he donate """0"""" to charity

Gore 1997- $353

---now on other side of fence we have the greedy conservative as portrayed by drive by media--
GW--heres a few from Goggle ranging from $82,000 to $334,000
1998
http://answers.google.com/answers/th...id/105283.html


Cheney--how many million and which year you want?????

Ok lets drop down to Sarah Palin have 2 years on her--06 ($4,250) and 07 ($3.325)----
and thats with 4 children and one being special needs.

--and the truth will set you free--:0008
 
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Chadman

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you left out who pays the taxes--and looks like your base isn't doing squat.

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top_50__of_wage_earners_pay_96_09__of_income_taxes.Par.0008.ImageFile.jpg
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--and the truth will set you free--:0008

Yes, the truth shall set you free, Wayne. I'm glad you brought this up (again), because it's a perfect illustration of why your numbers and the base income tax numbers are not an accurate portrayal of actual incomes and responsibilities. These higher income earners who pay more taxes than the lower earners actually have a lower average effective income tax rate that lower income earners who pay less of the overall tax money.

Here's a great link to a more overall explanation, and it doesn't leave out the embarrassing parts of your story:

http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/250.html

If we look here, we'll see that the Top 5% makes nearly 35% of the gross adjusted income in this country. While they pay almost 59% of the income taxes, they make a LOT of income from capital gains and dividends, which are typically taxed at lower rates. So, considering the ENTIRE picture and responsibility of who makes what money and pays what tax rates on ALL the money they make, the upper 5% pay just above 20% in average taxes on their income.

OF COURSE they pay more of the income tax share than those that make far less money do. MAINLY because they make SO MUCH MORE MONEY THAN EVERYBODY ELSE. And clearly, they are making it up in other ways, ways that lower earners OF COURSE can't afford to take part in.

Considering that the income discrepancy in this country between the upper and lower income earners has grown tremendously for quite a while, WITH THIS SYSTEM, I don't think things are all that hard for the really wealthy, considering their options and ability to take advantage of more ways to make even more money.

They pay more income taxes. They make a lot more in other areas, any pay less taxes on all of that than in income tax. Seems like a good gig, and would say that most probably wouldn't trade place with the other options of the lower groups very often, despite having access to those fun hoe-down dances you post so often...
:0008
 

DOGS THAT BARK

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Why should one person pay a higher % in taxes because they are productive--and why should the dead beats pay none.

What happened to the liberals equal rights--convenient it stops at tax time.

How obvious does it have to be-the lines could not be any plainer

The strength of republican party voting block depends on productive tax payers-corps-farmers-military

The strenghth of Dems voting block lies in illegals-minorities-illegitimacy-welfare

Bottom line--what we have is the bottom 50% who contribute nothing but dead weight trying to dictate the rules to the other 50% packing their asses.

--and success of Dem party is how many more they can add to their ranks to gain control over the productive.--do they really think the productive will not move to less intrusive confines.

Here is problem--note tax revenues and spending-

http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfacts/displayafact.cfm?Docid=200




Facts > Overview > Federal Receipts & Outlays >
taxfacts.gif

widespacer.gif



Historical Federal Receipt and Outlay Summary

[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]
 

Trench

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What happened to the liberals equal rights--convenient it stops at tax time.
So equal rights are a "liberal" thing and not just the right thing to do? It's statements like these where you unwittingly reveal your prejudices and bigotry and you're just too blind to see it.

Keep voting for politicians that serve only the interests of their wealthy contributors like the good little Republican sock-puppet that you are Dogs. It's voters like you that are making their dream of a plutocracy a reality. So carry on with your childish antics of referring to the rest of us as members of "Da Base" because we vote for change and progress, whoever embodies it, regardless of party lines.
 

bleedingpurple

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Where it is real F ing COLD
Why should one person pay a higher % in taxes because they are productive--and why should the dead beats pay none.

What happened to the liberals equal rights--convenient it stops at tax time.

How obvious does it have to be-the lines could not be any plainer

The strength of republican party voting block depends on productive tax payers-corps-farmers-military

The strenghth of Dems voting block lies in illegals-minorities-illegitimacy-welfare

Bottom line--what we have is the bottom 50% who contribute nothing but dead weight trying to dictate the rules to the other 50% packing their asses.

--and success of Dem party is how many more they can add to their ranks to gain control over the productive.--do they really think the productive will not move to less intrusive confines.

Here is problem--note tax revenues and spending-

http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfacts/displayafact.cfm?Docid=200




Facts > Overview > Federal Receipts & Outlays >
taxfacts.gif

widespacer.gif



Historical Federal Receipt and Outlay Summary

[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]

Way to over generalize.. Are there dead beats.? Well yes there are! Are there many who need assistance who are not deadbeats. Of course.

Why don't you understand that the rich HAVE TO have more percentage takin out in taxes. Is it fair? Not in the literal sense but it is necessary. It has to happen unless we stop getting involved in wars and all people are born fortunate and perfect.
 

bleedingpurple

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Where it is real F ing COLD
Lets put this in my sense..

Guy A makes 1,000,000 per year and guy B makes 40,000.

Lets say they both get 20% deducted to the gov.

Guy A pays 200,000 and guy B pays 8,000..

Now lets say guy A has to pay 22% and B 18%

Now guy A pays 220,000 and B pays $7200..

Big descrepnecy but where would guy A's money go.. In the Bank and Guy Bs would go back in the economy.. Now there are going to be far more B guys than A guys . Is it fair? Not to guy A but it seems necessary to me. Maybe my thinking is all effed up.:shrug:
 

DOGS THAT BARK

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Hmmm the socialistic/redistribution of wealth advocates/never saw an entitlement program or tax hike they didn't like----got their panties in a wad. :lol:
 

Chadman

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Wayne, considering that the top 5% of income earners make 35% of all the income in the country, and the bottom 50% make 12.75% of all the income in the country, why should the bottom 50% pay more in taxes than the upper 5%? Why should they pay anywhere NEAR as much as those that MAKE ALL THE MONEY?

And, AGAIN, considering the upper 5% make a lot of their money at much lower tax rates bringing their average tax paying percent down to about 20%, how are they being unfairly taxed?
 

Trench

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Hmmm the socialistic/redistribution of wealth advocates/never saw an entitlement program or tax hike they didn't like----got their panties in a wad. :lol:
In the morning when you sober up, Dogs, maybe consider the fact that all governments are socialistic and that redistribution of wealth is perpetual. :shrug:

At this point though, you might as well have another Budweiser and get back to your collection of Wrestle-Mania DVD's.
 
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DOGS THAT BARK

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Wayne, considering that the top 5% of income earners make 35% of all the income in the country, and the bottom 50% make 12.75% of all the income in the country, why should the bottom 50% pay more in taxes than the upper 5%? Why should they pay anywhere NEAR as much as those that MAKE ALL THE MONEY?

And, AGAIN, considering the upper 5% make a lot of their money at much lower tax rates bringing their average tax paying percent down to about 20%, how are they being unfairly taxed?

They shouldn't and they don't--

according to my #'s
http://www.american.com/archive/200...zine-contents/guess-who-really-pays-the-taxes


top 1%
earn 19% of income and pay 37% of taxes

top 5%
make 33% of money and pay 57% of taxes

top 25% make 68% of money and pay 85% of taxes

Bottom 50%
make 13% of income and pay 3%
:0003
 
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