Steve Forbes

ssd

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http://www.zerohedge.com/news/steve-forbes-how-bring-back-america

Steve Forbes has a message for a nation dominated by increasingly short-term decisions made on Wall Street and in Washington D.C., and by ever greater economic, financial and currency instability. As long as America continues moving away from sound money; away from sound financial and economic policies; and, ultimately, away from freedom, its future grows more dim. The dot-com and housing bubbles followed by the 2008 financial crisis and the most severe economic decline since the Great Depression serve as powerful lessons. A future of bigger government, higher taxes, more burdensome regulations, less consumer choice and more unrealistic government promises requires more and more Federal Reserve play money.

Steve Forbes has a quintessentially American policy prescription rooted in American history. The answer to America?s economic problems is?and has always been?new wealth creation. New wealth creation doesn?t come from the government or from the Federal Reserve?s printing press. New wealth creation is what happens naturally with stable money based on the gold standard, lower taxes on individuals, a simplified tax code, reduced bureaucracy and free markets.
 

ImFeklhr

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I still don't understand how at our level of sophistication as a society we could base our currency on a metal that has no real value.
This is where my brain goes:
If we are creating more wealth, does that create more gold? Or does that just increase the amount of money it takes to buy existing gold? (Wouldn?t that be the definition of inflation, which is the opposite of wealth creation.) Or does creating wealth means existing money buys more gold, which would seem to devalue gold, which is what we base our currency on?.
This thought process basically devolves into a confusing spiral when I try to figure it out.

I am just smart enough to ask questions, but not nearly educated or smart enough regarding Econ theory to figure this shit out. Someone help me out. When Forbes or Paul or other people intelligently talk about fiscal policy and say 9 things I agree with and 1 thing I don?t understand, it makes me think they are onto something, but my limitations make it hard to know for sure.

Either way I think he has the basics down. Saving, wealth creation, LONG TERM fiscal planning is what we need more of.
 

ssd

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so, those little strips of paper cloth you carry in your wallet or the chunks of round metal in your pocket have an inherent worth?
 

ImFeklhr

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so, those little strips of paper cloth you carry in your wallet or the chunks of round metal in your pocket have an inherent worth?

No. But as I understand it, money, whether paper, coin or electronic represents something. What that something is debatable and fluid (as it should be?).

$20 slip of paper in my wallet equals an hour of work for some, the cost of a meal for others etc.

The way I understand currency (skip to the bottom if you have a life):
If we all started a society together on Madjacks island, we might start a simple barter economy. Trade a few apples for a block of wood, a bowl of soup for a fishing line etc.... But this is inefficient and would eventually create MadJack-bucks to simplify transactions.
Let's say I grow apples. Well when I want FatDaddy to catch me some fish. But perhaps he hates apples and doesn't want to trade with me. He would rather get pickles from Lawtchan. So we create a currency that represents value of objects and labor. Supply and demand slowly assigns specific values to each object and action in amount of MadJack bucks. A bushel of apples becomes worth 1 MadJackBuck, while perhaps a slingshot to hunt birds might cost 50 MJBs.

The way it probably starts off on MadJack island is 1 MJB represents approximately 1 hour of work, then there ought to be about as many MJBs in circulation as there are working man-hours to go around. This is good because it is a static unit of measure. At least at first, and assuming the population doesn?t grow or shrink much.

As we go along we innovate. I start finding ways to grow apples twice as fast as I used to. Now instead of 1 bushel per hour, I am now producing 2 per hour. At first I might be twice as rich because before my innovation everyone assumed 1 bushel=1 hour and therefore 1 MJB. So for a while I am making serious scratch due to my increased productivity. Eventually people see how much I?m making on apples and they try their own hand at apple producing. That?s the competition portion kicking in. Perhaps when they join in they briefly start getting rich too (Boom), and suddenly too many people switch to apples and before we all realize we have over produced apples and under produced fishing and other things (Bust). And finally apples value has adjusted, because it is more abundant. Some got rich, some went broke, but the ultimate result is more apples and more importantly the knowledge of how to harvest apples more efficiently has permeated the industry. We are better off.

The complex part of all this lies in the management of the currency. Who decides how much MJBs exist? And why? That?s the only real point of control there is. The value of each MJB will fluctuate and adjust based on how much productivity exists and how many MJBs are printed.

Now suppose we had put TheBoys in charge of making the MJBs. Now The Boys is a compassionate man, and he doesn?t like to see people suffering. He sees JediSurvivor struggling to buy enough food because he spends all his time surfing. He thinks it would be super nice if Jedi had some more MJBs, and heck everyone could use some more anyway. So he decides to double the amount of MJBs in circulationOn a small scale such as our MadJack Island, people would get pissed and probably exile TheBoys in charge of creating MJBs for monkeying around with our shared currency. We all KNEW was a MJB was worth and creating too many messed everything up. GardenWeasel who had saved his MJBs instead of spending them immediately got screwed because the introduction of twice as much MJBs basically distorted what he had saved. The money TheBoys printed for Jedi and some other people in need looks the same as the money GW saved from the fruits of his labor. There is no way to determine that GWs money is real and Jedi?s is created out of thin air. Everything is focked.

Alternatively, maybe TheBoys is not simply compassionate. What if he is greedy? Maybe he KNOWS creating too much money will harm the MadJack Island Economy, but he stands to gain from this somehow? Perhaps he and his friends excel not at hard work and innovation but only at matters related to MJBs. They lend, they loan ?invest?, they create interest, they introduce complexities that become MORE profitable the more broken the system is. They are smart enough to play the MJBs market and win, so it benefits them to introduce new MJBs beyond the amount that the harder workers saved. Because while each MJB might be worth 50% of its previous value, they have created a game they are good at, and they will make lots of lots of it. More than making up for its lessened worth. They prosper more the more chaotic the system is.

Both of these examples are inflation. Whether caused by bleeding hearts or greedy corporatists. This is what our Central bank is doing with ?quantitative easing?.

*****This is my admittedly basic understanding of Economics. Pardon the verbosity and correct me where I?m wrong. Or just skip to my original and ultimate question.
How the hell does something like Gold become the currency on MadJacks Island and why would we choose to ?use it as the standard??*****
 

Duff Miver

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How the hell does something like Gold become the currency on MadJacks Island and why would we choose to ?use it as the standard??*****

You;'re exactly right.

Under some conditions, a gram of the right antibiotic is worth more than all the gold on earth.

Sometimes a single bullet is worth more than a ton of gold.

For some folks, a bottle of Jack Black is worth a ton of gold.

And, as many men know, a sweet piece of ass can be worth more than all the gold on earth. Just ask Mark Anthony.

Gold, just like paper, is worth only what someone else will give you for it. Of and by itself, an ounce of gold isn't worth a McDonald's cheeseburger.

You can't eat it, you can't burn it for heat, you can't cure disease with it, you can't defend yourself with it.
 
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ImFeklhr

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You;'re exactly right.

Under some conditions, a gram of the right antibiotic is worth more than all the gold on earth.

Sometimes a single bullet is worth more than a ton of gold.

For some folks, a bottle of Jack Black is worth a ton of gold.

And, as many men know, a sweet piece of ass can be worth more than all the gold on earth. Just ask Mark Anthony.

Gold, just like paper, is worth only what someone else will give you for it. Of and by itself, an ounce of gold isn't worth a McDonald's cheeseburger.

You can't eat it, you can't burn it for heat, you can't cure disease with it, you can't defend yourself with it.

Which again, is fine... Currency is a useful thing, for obvious reasons. It is a easily transported representation of work or goods.

But why is gold even part of this equation? It seems like an added level of confusion between paper currency and the value it is supposed to represent.
Someone smart help me out here.
 

ssd

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Actually. Muff - they have found that using gold isotopes, they can target some chemo better on certain cancers.

Why was the "New World" discovered? Why did Pizarro and Columbus, etc risk their lives?

To find little strips of paper-cloth?
 

ssd

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IMF:
Your dollars used to represent a fraction of an ounce of gold and could be redeemed as such.
Now, they are just backed by the full faith and credit of the US Govt. (or actually Federal Reserve as they are officially a Federal Reserve Note)
The credit rating of the US was just cut one notch from AAA. It is still one of the best in the world and the USD is seen as a safe haven in times of financial stress.
However, because of the Fed's policies of late and the actions of the US Govt, investors do not have the complete and utter blind faith that they once did.

Forbes recommends a gold standard. I really do not care WHAT the standard is - I just do not want fiat money and want a REAL asset backing the paper - be it gold, or lumber or water or land.

You ask why is gold valuable? Why do you buy a gold wedding band and pay $300? Why not wrap a dollar bill into a ring shape and wear that?
Why are diamonds so expensive? Why is oil priced where it is?

At the BIS - Bank of International Settlements - trade balances between countries are exchanged in.....gold. Huge pallets of gold sit in vaults - each country has a vault and when the US pays China - a forklift driver moves a pallet of gold from the US vault to the Chinese vault.

The first recognized civilization - Egypt - used gold as a store of value - so have every succeeding civilization since.


Here is an article - from Martin Armstrong - I think one of the more brilliant economists alive - he mentions a bunch of stuff but perhaps you can see his line of thinking - and he can sometimes be quite confusing - all of his essays are at his site and make for interesting reading. I agree with his thoughts on deflation and a strengthening USD and is some of the reasons why, while I actually do own some physical precious metals, that I am also short gold thru an ETF (paper gold)

http://www.inflateordie.com/files/How%20Do%20Empires%20Die%2006-17-2012.pdf
 

Duff Miver

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Forbes recommends a gold standard. I really do not care WHAT the standard is - I just do not want fiat money and want a REAL asset backing the paper - be it gold, or lumber or water or land.



Gold is just another commodity, and it's price swings, sometimes wildly, depending on investor fears and whims, just like all commodities.

All you need do is look at the 50 year chart of gold/US dollar, and you can see why a gold standard is unworkable. The unpredictable and rapidly changing value of such a currency would precipitate recurrent bouts of hyperinflation followed by deep depression.

Indeed, that is exactly what did happen when we were on a gold backed currency. Do you understand why no country on earth uses a commodity based currency?

The gold bug Harry Browne was a fool (you can look it up as the say), the Pauls are monetary fools, and so is Steve Forbes.

The full faith and credit of the USA is more stable and reliable.

Pay attention to George Santayana

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it"
 

ImFeklhr

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IMF:
Your dollars used to represent a fraction of an ounce of gold and could be redeemed as such.
Now, they are just backed by the full faith and credit of the US Govt. (or actually Federal Reserve as they are officially a Federal Reserve Note)
The credit rating of the US was just cut one notch from AAA. It is still one of the best in the world and the USD is seen as a safe haven in times of financial stress.
However, because of the Fed's policies of late and the actions of the US Govt, investors do not have the complete and utter blind faith that they once did.

Forbes recommends a gold standard. I really do not care WHAT the standard is - I just do not want fiat money and want a REAL asset backing the paper - be it gold, or lumber or water or land.

You ask why is gold valuable? Why do you buy a gold wedding band and pay $300? Why not wrap a dollar bill into a ring shape and wear that?
Why are diamonds so expensive? Why is oil priced where it is?

At the BIS - Bank of International Settlements - trade balances between countries are exchanged in.....gold. Huge pallets of gold sit in vaults - each country has a vault and when the US pays China - a forklift driver moves a pallet of gold from the US vault to the Chinese vault.

The first recognized civilization - Egypt - used gold as a store of value - so have every succeeding civilization since.


Here is an article - from Martin Armstrong - I think one of the more brilliant economists alive - he mentions a bunch of stuff but perhaps you can see his line of thinking - and he can sometimes be quite confusing - all of his essays are at his site and make for interesting reading. I agree with his thoughts on deflation and a strengthening USD and is some of the reasons why, while I actually do own some physical precious metals, that I am also short gold thru an ETF (paper gold)

http://www.inflateordie.com/files/How%20Do%20Empires%20Die%2006-17-2012.pdf

Thanks, this is sorta what I was looking for. I appreciate you following my train of thought through, even if I seem to be intentionally dense on the matter. My interest in this is mostly an abstract curiosity, and not coming from an entrenched point of view.
I will read the articles you linked.

I think the core of the matter is summarized by you saying ?Forbes recommends a gold standard. I really do not care WHAT the standard is - I just do not want fiat money and want a REAL asset backing the paper - be it gold, or lumber or water or land.?

I sorta agree that a fixed value of money is helpful. And I just can?t understand how printing money out of thin air (which I guess is what FIAT means?) can possibly work. And, of course, I do understand the tradition of Gold and the role it has played for thousands of years.
But my problem with gold is that 1) it?s not fixed, it is still being mined from the ground? doesn?t the discovery of more gold fuck with the economy? Because more gold creates the sense of more wealth, while just by virtue of discovering more gold no actual gain in human productivity or value has been generated
2) Gold has a very flimsy perceived value. Aside from human tradition, there is very little purpose for gold. It doesn?t seem like a good idea to peg currency to something that can change in value based on whim and fashion.
3) Gold can be destroyed/lost . Does human wealth decrease if I take a gold bar melt then dilute it into water? Or is the wealth just misplaced until someone mines it and forges it back into a bar?

So operating under the theory that some standard is ideal, wouldn?t the ideal currency ?backer? be something that is 1) finite, 2) equally valued by all societies 3) Something with an actual purpose.
Oil seems like a good idea, but again, if we discover alternate means of energy, we mess up the currency because we have put all this effort into pegging our currency into something we have lessened in importance.
My suggestions would be pegging currency to some transcendent unit of energy. A BTU or Newton or Watt or something (physics is another of my weaker spots). Some sort of base number representing ?potential energy?.

How awesome would it be to, when you spend ?money? to really understand what it is you are spending. That book, that car, that home just cost you 8 or 100 or 1000 units of energy!

Or go in the opposite direction and peg currency to something completely arbitrary. Like for instance say there are only 1 million ?dollars? in the world, ever. Rather than printing money in larger quantities and forcing an understanding of inflation to figure out how much wealth you have, do the opposite. Constantly create small increments of money (as needed), and whatever wealth you have is simply a small percentage of the total value of all mankind. Designed scarcity, assuming everyone agreed to use this, would stoke the value and get things going.

Thanks again for the conversation, this is interesting! :toast:
 

Duff Miver

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so, those little strips of paper cloth you carry in your wallet or the chunks of round metal in your pocket have an inherent worth?

And oldie but goodie from ssd.

Well, let's see. Suppose as the date of his piece of financial wisdom, I had little strips of paper, and ssd had chunks of round metal...where would we both be today?

au1825nyb.gif
 

Duff Miver

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so, those little strips of paper cloth you carry in your wallet or the chunks of round metal in your pocket have an inherent worth?

And oldie but goodie from ssd.

Well, let's see. Suppose as the date of his piece of financial wisdom (7/19/2012), I had little strips of paper, and ssd had chunks of round metal...where would we both be today?

au1825nyb.gif


Answer: I'd be gobbling a Kansas City T-bone, sleeping under a down comforter, and ssd would be opening a can of Alpo, living in a refrigerator box under a bridge.

Nice move, ssd. Get in at the top. Now all you have to do is get out at the bottom. :0008

Smart guys, ssd and Steve Forbes. Smart as foxes.

c220f82c23d4d1207923fc936d1f818e.jpg



:142smilie

LMAO at "financial geniuses" like ssd and Steve Forbes.:00hour
 
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