The 10 Dumbest Arguments Against Health-Care Reform

MB MLB 728x90 Jpg

Chadman

Realist
Forum Member
Apr 2, 2000
7,501
42
48
SW Missouri
The 10 Dumbest Arguments Against Health-Care Reform

The health care debate has been overwhelmed by grumbling resistance. Too bad the complaints are largely groundless.

PAUL WALDMAN | July 28, 2009

In order to reap democracy's fruits, we have to endure many sacrifices. The cost of enjoying the freedom to express our views is that we must tolerate the despicable views of others. Giving everyone the freedom to worship as they wish means that beliefs that could probably warrant intervention with powerful psychopharmacology are instead accorded the utmost respect. And a legislature made up of popularly elected representatives means that our laws are made by bodies that include no small number of liars, knaves, and fools. This is the democratic bargain. It's worth every penny, but there are times when it makes you want to scream.
As the latest iteration of our once-every-generation-or-so effort to reform our disaster of a health-care system reaches its climax, we find ourselves at one of those times. The opponents of reform are getting serious now, and they've turned the volume on their megaphones of mendacity up to 11.

Herewith, then, we have the 10 dumbest arguments currently circulating against health-care reform.

What we really need is a "bipartisan" health-reform bill -- and if Democrats act properly, they could get one. The myth that "bipartisan" legislation works better than partisan legislation is widespread, but virtually no real evidence supports it. For every successful program passed with support from both parties, you can find another one that failed. There are also plenty of popular programs that enjoyed the support of only one side. Republicans aren't afraid to attack Medicare because some party members voted for it in 1965; they're afraid to attack Medicare because it has been hugely successful at achieving its goal of providing quality, affordable health care to seniors. The future popularity of the current health-care reform will be a function of whether the program works, not how many Republicans voted for it.

More important, Republicans are not going to vote for this health-care reform, no matter what the final bill looks like. Chances are it will get zero Republican votes in the House and maybe two Republican votes in the Senate, tops. Anyone who thinks more optimistically has been partaking of too many free samples from pharmaceutical lobbyists.

Whatever we do, we shouldn't ruin "the best health-care system in the world." Progressives confronted with this common argument often respond with incredulity. "Are you kidding me?" they shout. Fifty million uninsured, the highest per-capita costs in the world, millions of people pushed into bankruptcy by medical bills, worse health outcomes than most of the industrialized world? Are you kidding me?

But this is not a practical argument -- it's a moral argument. Those who make it believe that our system is the best precisely because of its inequality. Systems like those of our European friends, in which everyone has access to high-quality care at a reasonable price, just don't sit right with many conservative Republicans. If a captain of industry can't buy better health care than the guy who cuts his lawn can, then the world just isn't functioning as it should.

This health reform is moving too fast. We've heard from lots of Republicans -- and a few conservative Democrats -- that the best thing to do is just take our time, lest we be too hasty about fixing our broken system. But there's a simple question I haven't heard asked: Why?

It isn't as though these GOP members of Congress have been pulling one all-nighter after another hammering out details of reform, and they just need a couple more weeks to get all their work done. Instead, the people making this argument are for the most part reform's bitterest opponents, who have no goal other than to kill the effort.

If we can find an anecdote about a Canadian or Brit who had an unhappy medical experience, that means we shouldn't reform our own system. This argument is everywhere, particularly on talk radio and Fox News. While there is a case to be made both for and against a completely socialized system like they have in those two countries -- where the hospitals are owned by the government, and all the doctors and nurses are government employees -- nothing remotely like that is being debated here. This argument is like saying that you shouldn't buy a Honda because Volkswagens don't get good gas mileage.

If this health reform passes, some bureaucrat might be able to dictate what care you can get, standing between you and your doctor. This may well be the most widespread and pernicious of all the dumb arguments against health-care reform. It certainly has some intuitive appeal, as long as you don't think about it for more than three or four seconds. Who wants some snotty bureaucrat telling my doctor what to do? That would be awful!

So true -- you'd never want a government bureaucrat getting between you and your doctor. Much better to have your care controlled by an entire team of insurance-company bureaucrats, whose bonuses and promotions depend on denying your claims and limiting your care. That is, if you have a plan in the first case, what with their denial of your pre-existing conditions and their attempts to kick you off your policy if you actually get sick. That's so much better than letting some government bureaucrat get involved.

Reform is all well and good, but we need to make sure it doesn't increase the deficit. This is the argument made most notably by the "Blue Dog" conservative Democrats, and it should be called what it is: a charade. The Blue Dogs claim to be deeply concerned about fiscal responsibility, but the truth is that they are motivated almost entirely by ideology. Nothing wrong with that, but don't try to tell us their only concern is deficits. Were that the case, they would be pushing not just for a public option to be part of the bill but for it to be open to every American citizen or company that wants it, because that would save the most money. But of course, they aren't, because the public option is "big government," and they don't like that. And if they were only concerned about fiscal responsibility, they would have opposed the Bush tax cuts, supported tax increases to pay for the Iraq War, or opposed the war and its $2 trillion price tag entirely. But of course they didn't. What they oppose is progressive legislation that provides benefits to regular Americans.

If you can make a flow chart with lots of boxes and arrows on it, that means health reform will be terrible. As a group, Republican representatives are not known for their intelligence or dignity, but this has to be among their more ridiculous exercises in a while: They made themselves a fancy chart purporting to show how complex the Democrats' health plan is, in the hopes that we'd all shriek madly and run in the other direction. According to Roll Call, about 50 GOP members of Congress have blandished the chart during their floor speeches or put it on their Web site.

In truth, their chart bears almost no relationship to the way reform would actually work systemically, not to mention how absurd is the contention that ordinary Americans' health care would be made more complicated by, say, the existence of a training program for nurses. It looks like it was put together by a group of fifth-graders, which it kind of was.

If we could only make it illegal for people to sue when their surgeon amputates the wrong leg, we could get costs under control. You can sympathize with doctors who are afraid of being sued by patients who didn't like the outcome of their cases. But the idea that the solution to rising costs is capping malpractice awards is just ridiculous.

In Atul Gawande's justly celebrated New Yorker article, he relates how he asked a group of doctors in the now-notorious city of McAllen, Texas, why medical costs there are higher than anywhere else in the country. They began to complain about lawsuits, until Gawande pointed out, "Several years ago, Texas passed a tough malpractice law that capped pain-and-suffering awards at two hundred and fifty thousand dollars. Didn't lawsuits go down?" One of the doctors admitted, "Practically to zero."

Reform might make me lose my current health coverage. Here is a list of some things that could make you completely lose your current health coverage: Losing your job. Leaving your job for a different one. Poor earnings for your employer, which makes them decide to cut benefits. Trying to start your own small business. Getting a serious illness.

You want to meet people who have absolutely no need to worry about losing their coverage? Talk to a senior on Medicare, or a veteran who gets his care from the V.A. Those rotten government programs don't kick people off.

Health-care reform will literally kill you. This is the level of absurdity to which conservatives have actually descended. As Steve Benen observed, "As Republican desperation has become more palpable, there's a preoccupation with the ?reform = literal death' meme." The examples are legion, but here are a couple to give you the flavor. Louie Gohmert of Texas delivered a bizarre rant on the House floor in which he claimed, "One in five people have to die because they went to socialized medicine! Now I've got three daughters and a wife. I would hate to think that among five women, one of them is going to die because we go to socialized care." When Bill O'Reilly asked Dick Morris (who, let's be honest, is probably upset that the public option won't cover therapeutic visits to prostitutes who let you suck their toes) what the plan would mean for a regular guy, Morris responded, "Obama's plan is gonna kill you."

This is just part of the hurricane of idiocy the administration must struggle through if it is to pass health-care reform. Don't get me wrong ? there are some very good reasons to remain optimistic about the odds of reform succeeding. On the other hand, if in our national debate you always bet that the side offering the most dim-witted, disingenuous arguments will triumph, most of the time you'll be right.
 

Spytheweb

Registered User
Forum Member
Sep 27, 2005
1,171
14
0
healthcare-rush.jpg
 
MB NCAAF 728x90 Jpg

gardenweasel

el guapo
Forum Member
Jan 10, 2002
40,553
214
63
"the bunker"
"As a group, Republican representatives are not known for their intelligence or dignity, but this has to be among their more ridiculous exercises in a while"...

oh yeah...this is really an objective,substantive argument for socialized medicine...


puh-lease!!...:rolleyes:


nobody can answer this one question...and it`s THEE most important question in the whole debate...

"""why did politicians exempt themselves from the plan?""....

if you can`t answer that,then you know THEY think it`s a plan that they wouldn`t want for their own families...

when the politicians think the plan is good enough for themselves and their own families,then i`ll reconsider...

but if the people putting it together want no part of it,anybody with two neurons to rub together should understand they`re getting screwed...

a portion of the unemployed are illegally here..they aren`t citizens...another portion are like smurph,people that never think they`ll get sick and CHOOSE not to buy insurance...

people in between jobs and the truly destitute should be helped...that shouldn`t mean dumbing down healthcare that 83% of the country is very satisfied with...

leave the hard working, self sufficient alone...they`ve earned it..

congress and the president want no part of this sham..but nobody seems to wonder why...

well,it`s pretty obvious...it sucks...

can anyone answer my question?..is there a rational argument why it`s good enough for the proletariat but not good enough for the elites?...
 
Last edited:

StevieD

Registered User
Forum Member
Jun 18, 2002
9,509
44
48
71
Boston
"As a group, Republican representatives are not known for their intelligence or dignity, but this has to be among their more ridiculous exercises in a while"...

oh yeah...this is really an objective,substantive argument for socialized medicine...


puh-lease!!...:rolleyes:


nobody can answer this one question...and it`s THEE most important question in the whole debate...

"""why did politicians exempt themselves from the plan?""....

if you can`t answer that,then you know THEY think it`s a plan that they wouldn`t want for their own families...

when the politicians think the plan is good enough for themselves and their own families,then i`ll reconsider...

but if the people putting it together want no part of it,anybody with two neurons to rub together should understand they`re getting screwed...

a portion of the unemployed are illegally here..they aren`t citizens...another portion are like smurph,people that never think they`ll get sick and CHOOSE not to buy insurance...

people in between jobs and the truly destitute should be helped...that shouldn`t mean dumbing down healthcare that 83% of the country is very satisfied with...

leave the hard working, self sufficient alone...they`ve earned it..

congress and the president want no part of this sham..but nobody seems to wonder why...

well,it`s pretty obvious...it sucks...

can anyone answer my question?..is there a rational argument why it`s good enough for the proletariat but not good enough for the elites?...

Wease, I don't understand what you are saying. You said the politicians have exempted themselves from the pan. Do you mean they do not need health insuance or that like the millions of other Americans who have health insurance they will keep what they have?

I don't like the plan but let's keep with facts because the mistruths just weaken the argument..
 

DOGS THAT BARK

Registered User
Forum Member
Jul 13, 1999
19,400
120
63
Bowling Green Ky
I like the article Chad--truely defines liberalism opinion/rhetoric and totally void of stats or facts.
Not a peep on cost or tax consequences

Maybe someone could log on to his site and have and ask him how dumb some of these stats are.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32206998/ns/politics-white_house/
As Congress works on its legislation and as Obama campaigns to get an overhaul enacted, 42 percent now say that the president?s plan is a bad idea, which is a 10-point increase since last month. Thirty-six percent say it?s a good idea.
In addition, 39 percent ? a plurality ? believe that Obama?s plan would result in the quality of their health care getting worse. That?s 15-point jump since April.
And just 41 percent approve of the president?s job on health care, which is nearly identical to Bill Clinton?s scores from 1994, when he failed to get Congress to pass health care reform.

no mention that 91% of Americans (not countling illegals) have health ins and 84% of them are happy with them.

--but I imagine none of these are pertinant to author as I am sure his article was meant to target those wanting the free ride--Da Base :)
 
MB NCAAF 728x90 Jpg

Chadman

Realist
Forum Member
Apr 2, 2000
7,501
42
48
SW Missouri
no mention that 91% of Americans (not countling illegals) have health ins and 84% of them are happy with them.[/QUOTE]

I am really jammed up today, would like to talk more about this, but I'm curious where you got this number, Wayne. You are saying that only 9% of non-illegal American citizens do not have health care? I would bet you that number is low, especially over the last two years of job losses and terrible economy. I Googled it, and the first number I found was a report from 2005 (much better times than now) and the number was 15%. I would guess the number to be closer to 20% at this point. But, you're the insurance guy... just curious where that came from.
 

Chadman

Realist
Forum Member
Apr 2, 2000
7,501
42
48
SW Missouri
Found this pretty quickly, again, not sure where you're getting your 9% number of Americans (NOT ILLEGALS) from, as this is from the 2005 and 2007 census numbers.

-------------------

The Number Of Uninsured Americans Is At An All-Time High
PDF of this report (5pp.) August 29, 2006

This analysis was updated on August 26, 2008 to reflect 2007 Census Data. View the new analysis

Data released today by the Census Bureau show that the number of uninsured Americans stood at a record 46.6 million in 2005, with 15.9 percent of Americans lacking health coverage. ?The number of uninsured Americans reached an all-time high in 2005,? said Robert Greenstein, executive director of the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities. ?It is sobering that 5.4 million more people lacked health insurance in 2005 than in the recession year of 2001, primarily because of the erosion of employer-based insurance.?

Census data show that 46.6 million Americans were uninsured in 2005, an increase of 1.3 million from the number of uninsured in 2004 (45.3 million). The percentage who are uninsured rose from 15.6 percent in 2004 to 15.9 percent in 2005. The number of children who are uninsured rose from 7.9 million in 2004 to 8.3 million in 2005.

?The increase of 360,000 in the number of uninsured children is particularly troublesome,? Greenstein said. ?Since 1998, the percentage of uninsured children has been dropping steadily, from a high of 15.4 percent to 10.8 percent in 2004. The new Census data show that the uninsured rate among children moved in the wrong direction in 2005, rising to 11.2 percent.?

Greenstein warned that matters could get worse. In fiscal year 2007, which begins October 1, children?s health insurance programs in 17 states face federal funding shortfalls totaling an estimated $800 million, equal to the cost of covering more than 500,000 low-income children. Congress has known about the shortfall since early February, when the Administration took note of it and proposed a measure to address it, but Congress has so far failed to act.

?Unless Congress takes action this year to avert the impending shortfall,? Greenstein said, ?the increase in the number of children without health coverage is likely to accelerate in the year ahead.?

----------------------

I seriously doubt that considering the economy, this number has shrunk to less than 10% - and would bet it to be closer to my guess than your posted number, Wayne. Again, I invite your link to the 9% number of Americans with insurance.
 
MB NCAAF 728x90 Jpg

StevieD

Registered User
Forum Member
Jun 18, 2002
9,509
44
48
71
Boston
Found this pretty quickly, again, not sure where you're getting your 9% number of Americans (NOT ILLEGALS) from, as this is from the 2005 and 2007 census numbers.

.

You can grow old waiting for an answer.:142smilie
 

DOGS THAT BARK

Registered User
Forum Member
Jul 13, 1999
19,400
120
63
Bowling Green Ky
Last edited:

ferdville

Registered User
Forum Member
Dec 24, 1999
3,165
5
0
77
So Cal
The plan for poiticians has 260 options - which may be about 260 more options than ObamaCare.

And exactly WHAT IS THE RUSH

Another BO program with a 1400 page bill that needs to be pushed through immediately.

I might be wrong, but I don't believe it goes into effect until 2013

So what is the rush?
 
MB NCAAF 728x90 Jpg

Chadman

Realist
Forum Member
Apr 2, 2000
7,501
42
48
SW Missouri
Ok,Wayne, that gives me the context of the source of your 91% number. It came from an opinion piece written by Karl Rove for Rupert Murdoch's Wall Street Journal. I note he didn't cite where he got his number... not surprising, and I doubt it can be found anywhere outside of the Murdoch/Rovian empire, but feel free to source the numbers elsewhere, if you care to.

Ferd... I agree that this bill should not be rushed through, and I think it should go through many meetings, discussions, dissections, etc., to see exactly what is in there. I think it's a huge undertaking that needs to be looked at closely, and I don't think it should be voted on for quite a while. Sounds like that going to be the case.

However, I also think there are a lot of Republicans who are against any kind of healthcare reform at all, merely because Democrats are for it, and I think that hurts us all - some don't agree with me, but healthcare reform is one of the main reasons I voted for Obama, despite some reservations. I'm tired of the protectionism that many conservatives are giving the healthcare and insurance industries - neither of which could give a rats ass about holding costs down for any of us, and they have a vested interest in the costs going up. It just makes no sense to me to say we don't need any action on this issue at all.
 

gardenweasel

el guapo
Forum Member
Jan 10, 2002
40,553
214
63
"the bunker"
Wease, I don't understand what you are saying. You said the politicians have exempted themselves from the pan. Do you mean they do not need health insuance or that like the millions of other Americans who have health insurance they will keep what they have?

I don't like the plan but let's keep with facts because the mistruths just weaken the argument..

what`s not clear stevie?...the congress and the president and his cabinet are "EXEMPT" FROM ANY PUBLIC HEALTH PLAN....

they are not...and never will be(under any circumstance)part of obamacare....he wants a single payer plan....

how can i be any more clear?...

we may be forced into it....they never will be...they`ll always keep their cadillac healthcare plan....

exempt: "free or released from some liability or requirement to which others are subject" ...


the question was,"why would our governmental officials need to make that a part of any new public healthcare plan?"...

it`s very simple..and theres only one real answer...those responsible for foisting this on america want no part of it...

where`s the press?..(lol)
 
Last edited:

ferdville

Registered User
Forum Member
Dec 24, 1999
3,165
5
0
77
So Cal
I've ended up lumping the Republicans and Democrats in the same can. The majority on both sides don't really seem to be working for the people. The lack of compromise exhibited by both sides clearly puts the good of the people in the back seat, It happens no matter which side is in power.
 
Top