The Conservative Case for Health Care Reform

Chadman

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I think this is simple and direct enough that most in this forum can understand it. And that's saying something, in some cases... :)

Protecting the Individual
The Conservative Case for Health Care Reform
By TIMOTHY LEBR?N

As they say you should fight fire with fire, I'm going to fight rhetoric with rhetoric.

I'm a conservative, this is no secret. In the past 9 months I've seen one repeating theme come from the party I once called my own and the people that inhabit it: Rhetoric without a basis in reality.

What we saw the night of President Obama's address to a joint session of Congress was one group of politicians applauding reform and one group sitting down with their arms folded and their heads shaking. Even one went so far as to call the President a liar over the mention of illegal immigrants not being covered by this proposal. What we've seen over the August recess is likely the highest point of contention between liberals and those who claim conservatism in over a decade. What needs to be understood that what is missing from most of the opposition is a real understanding of their own ideology, and a real grasp for the facts as they are, not as they wish them to be.

The arguments brought against this reform range from the ideological to the political, from fiscal responsibility to the growing size of government. I'm here to tell conservatives that as one of your own, you are wrong. You've cruelly warped a non-ideological belief to fit your narrow world view and forced it into the political stream. Your opposition to health care reform and the public option are not only nonsensical, but dangerous to the constituency you claim to protect: the individual.

To the individual, costs will rise next year alone by 10.5%. Are wages going to be rising 10.5% next year? No. The individual is going to foot the bill of a system that is not only broken, but dangerously so. Employers will face a rise in costs that over 10 years will be unsustainable for small businesses to keep with, in other words the businesses that are the driving force of our local economies will be crushed under the weight of health care costs. Finally, for the sake of this argument, it must be shown that as costs rise, so does the figure of the uninsured. That is not a sustainable, or fiscally responsible path to skip along.

To oppose this plan under the guise of protecting the individual is doing the exact opposite.

There is an ideological argument to be made, this is true. If the argument to be made is fiscal conservatism, then one would have to look at this:

Is it best to be fiscally conservative for the company, or for the individual? Platform and policy of sensible libertarians, conservatives and republicans should point to the individual -- this is where I begin to outline my support for reform, one that might begin with a co-op or a public option.

Instead, it points to the company. We've sacrificed the individuals' fiscal survival for the survival of a corporation who, through either past federal law or strokes of luck, owns more than a reasonable market share. Standing for that company shows a failure to stand for the individual and only a public option tied together with real tort and legal reform can cut the costs to the individual. What we have simply cannot last..

The costs without reform are going to be too high. The individual, the average individual will be financially ruined by these rising costs.

If the argument to be made is the size of government, or that government works inefficiently -- then I would expect those who object to this initiative to begin voting against the Pentagon, Department of Defense, funding the FDIC, to begin to call for the removal of troops worldwide and to not advocate government in any situation, social or fiscal.

There is no reason to sit idly by and not reform the system. To imagine that the current system is sustainable is insane at best, and at worst, a deliberate move to hurt the American individual.

Timothy Lebr?n can be reached at: timclebron@gmail.com.
 

Chadman

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I know most conservatives don't agree with the concept, I can understand parts of the concern. I just thought this was a different way to look at the situation. Sometimes WE (myself included) only position one direction and can't see things in a different light.
 

layinwood

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Chadman, I think my big question is what have they done to try and help control costs? Everyone talks about how much health insurance has risen and because of that we need something else but why haven't they spent the time and energy doing something about costs rather than a complete overhaul?

Small business is the key in my industries to keeping prices at a fair level. If Lowes and Home Depot start raising prices too high, then Mom and Pop come in to my city and open a hardware store that can compete because the two big guys raised their prices too high. Mom and Pop can do this because opening one store is a viable option. The same thing happens in all of the cites where Lowes and Home Depot are open. This keeps Lowes and Home Depot in check because the small business CAN compete. In Health insurance you can't do that and I feel that this is the problem. Why not develop a system where a small business could come in and compete.
 

Mags

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Chadman, I think my big question is what have they done to try and help control costs? Everyone talks about how much health insurance has risen and because of that we need something else but why haven't they spent the time and energy doing something about costs rather than a complete overhaul?

Small business is the key in my industries to keeping prices at a fair level. If Lowes and Home Depot start raising prices too high, then Mom and Pop come in to my city and open a hardware store that can compete because the two big guys raised their prices too high. Mom and Pop can do this because opening one store is a viable option. The same thing happens in all of the cites where Lowes and Home Depot are open. This keeps Lowes and Home Depot in check because the small business CAN compete. In Health insurance you can't do that and I feel that this is the problem. Why not develop a system where a small business could come in and compete.

Please keep in mind the health care cost increases don't mean JUST price increases...

Health Care costs are due to 2 items:

1. Prices of care, and the type of care being given (more and more new technology drives up costs AS does more and more Brand prescription drugs - the ones you see on TV),

AND

2. UTILITIZATION. This is the bigger one of the two components. People demand more and more health care. This trend will not slow down - and this is the part of the cost curve that a goverment plan cannot stop - even by mandating payment levels. The only way we can get there is by rationing. Currently our health system does ration - by ability to pay. Which is how we ration everything in this country. Should health care be rationed that way? Same say yes, some say no.


It is shown that the higher the average household income of a country, the more a country spends on healthcare. So we are not outside of the norm. People demand healthcare - a lot of it.

And with 2/3 of American's now considered obese (I just read that today - WOW), it is going to get worse and worse.

We need to find a way to control utilization. The only way I know of to do it is with high deductibles and copayments. Consumers need skin in the game - so they have to pay a signficant piece too.

Our system now insulates the customer from the cost via low copays and low deductibles. This increases utilization.

Here's an example: my sister in law is a teacher - she has NO copay for doctor visits and a $2 copay on ANY brand drug. Obviously she doesn't think twice about having her or her children visit the doctor - even if some would view it unncessary.

Control health care costs?

1. Empower people with knowledge of prices (put up a board like at Burger King)

2. Make the consumer pay a signficant piece of the cost - so they have skin in the game, and

3. Stop going to F**KING McDonalds and get off the couch and stop playing XBOX (and stop sitting at the computer wrting articles on MJ"s) :D
 

Mags

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Chadman, I think my big question is what have they done to try and help control costs? Everyone talks about how much health insurance has risen and because of that we need something else but why haven't they spent the time and energy doing something about costs rather than a complete overhaul?

Small business is the key in my industries to keeping prices at a fair level. If Lowes and Home Depot start raising prices too high, then Mom and Pop come in to my city and open a hardware store that can compete because the two big guys raised their prices too high. Mom and Pop can do this because opening one store is a viable option. The same thing happens in all of the cites where Lowes and Home Depot are open. This keeps Lowes and Home Depot in check because the small business CAN compete. In Health insurance you can't do that and I feel that this is the problem. Why not develop a system where a small business could come in and compete.

The difficulty here is the small insurers struggle to compete - they pay more for health care, as they do not get the same discounts as the big guys do - because they do not drive the same volume of patients to the doctors and hospitals.

The health insurance game is all about size - the bigger you are, typically the less you pay docs and hospitals, and the cheaper your premiums can be.
 

layinwood

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The difficulty here is the small insurers struggle to compete - they pay more for health care, as they do not get the same discounts as the big guys do - because they do not drive the same volume of patients to the doctors and hospitals.

The health insurance game is all about size - the bigger you are, typically the less you pay docs and hospitals, and the cheaper your premiums can be.


Exactly! Which makes it impossible for small guys to compete.

Why not give incentives for small insurance companies to get going? Give them time to build up their numbers.
 

Mags

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Exactly! Which makes it impossible for small guys to compete.

Why not give incentives for small insurance companies to get going? Give them time to build up their numbers.

I think this would be a great thing.. but me thinks some people would view this is a bailout... although the gov does help small and large businesses all the time...

I think the big problem with this approach is it takes Obama that much further away from Single Payer - which I truly believe is his ultimate agenda.
 

Chadman

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I don't mean to suggest that I only think insurance companies are the problem, I don't think that. I think the providers (both organizations and doctors), big pharma, medical services, and other things I probably don't even know about all are a part of the issue. NOTHING in my mind is being done to combat the basic issue of costs rising 10% or so every year, to you and me. This is why I maintain there just isn't a competitive scenario at work in this situation. Up and down the line. I love your idea of the menu, Mags... that's a concept, as it is now, people go to the hospital - only one around in many cases, check in (no idea of cost), do what they are told they need to do for what ails them (no idea of cost), because if they don't, then they'll suffer the consequences (more concern and cost down the road).

It's just not a marketplace that translates into a competitive market, like others do, IMO. For many, it's one doctor, one clinic, one hospital, one ambulance service, one or multiple single medicine options, etc.
 

layinwood

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What if for every state(I'll use Texas since I live here) you have a central agency that controls prices. They decide the value of all icd9 and cpts. Each insurance company has to be approved by that States agency. Once they are on the approval list they're automatically accepted by physicians. After this it's up to the insurance company to set prices with their customers and remain as comptetive as possible. For all small insurance companies there would have to be a period of time that they are helped while they build their customer base.

Price is fair.
Physicians don't have to get credentialed with each new insurance company, they automatically work with the insurance companies in the states system.

I know this has holes but it allows small businesses to compete and this, IMO, would lower prices.
 

DOGS THAT BARK

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Chad I going to refer to Scotts favorite author again--We are on same tangent to a tee--only his oracle skills are much better.:)

In a nutshell--O has lied about every major statement/promise since day one--


Thursday, September 10, 2009

Listening to a Liar: Part II
by <ACRONYM title="Thomas Sowell">Thomas Sowell</ACRONYM>




"Hubris-laden charlatans" was the way a recent e-mail from a reader characterized the Obama administration. That phrase seems especially appropriate for the Charlatan-in-Chief, Barack Obama, whose speech to a joint session of Congress was both a masterpiece of rhetoric and a shameless fraud. To tell us, with a straight face, that he can insure millions more people without adding to the already skyrocketing deficit, is world-class chutzpa and an insult to anyone's intelligence. To do so after an analysis by the Congressional Budget Office has already showed this to be impossible reveals the depths of moral bankruptcy behind the glittering words.

Did we really need CBO experts to tell us that there is no free lunch? Some people probably did and the true believers in the Obama cult may still believe the President, instead of believing either common sense or budget experts.
Even those who can believe that Obama can conjure up the money through eliminating "waste, fraud and abuse" should ask themselves where he is going to conjure up the additional doctors, nurses, and hospitals needed to take care of millions more patients.
If he can't pull off that miracle, then government-run medical care in the United States can be expected to produce what government-run medical care in Canada, Britain, and other countries has produced-- delays of weeks or months to get many treatments, not to mention arbitrary rationing decisions by bureaucrats.
Obama can deny it in words but what matters are deeds-- and no one's words have been more repeatedly the direct opposite of his deeds-- whether talking about how his election campaign would be financed, how he would not rush legislation through Congress, or how his administration was not going to go after CIA agents for their past efforts to extract information from captured terrorists.
President Obama has also declared emphatically that he will not interfere in the internal affairs of other nations-- while telling the Israelis where they can and cannot build settlements and telling the Hondurans whom they should and should not choose to be their president.
One of the secrets of being a glib talker is not getting hung up over whether what you are saying is true, and instead giving your full attention to what is required by the audience and the circumstances of the moment, without letting facts get in your way and cramp your style. Obama has mastered that art."



(My fav)---but I prefer the word grifter--

"Con men understand that their job is not to use facts to convince skeptics but to use words to help the gullible to believe what they want to believe. No message has been more welcomed by the gullible, in countries around the than the promise of something for nothingworld, .



That is the core of Barack Obama's medical care plan.
President Obama tells us that he will impose various mandates on insurance companies but will not interfere with our free choice between being insured by these companies or by the government. But if he can drive up the cost of private insurance with mandates and subsidize government insurance with the taxpayers' money, how long do you think it will be before we have the "single payer" system has he has advocated in the past?
Mandates by politicians are what have driven up the cost of insurance already. Politicians love to play Santa Claus and leave it to others to raise prices to cover the inevitable costs.
Politicians have driven privately owned municipal transit systems out of business in many cities, by simply imposing costs and restricting the fare increases needed to cover those costs. The federal government can drive out private insurance the same way that local politicians have driven out private municipal transit and replaced it with government-run transit systems.
Barack Obama's insistence that various dangerous policies are not in the legislation he proposes sounds good but means nothing. Unbridled power is a blank check, no matter what its rationale may be. No law gave the President of the United States the power to fire the head of General Motors, but TARP money did.
When there are "advisory" panels on what treatments to approve and the White House's existing medical advisor has complained of Americans' "over-utilization" of medical care, what does it take to connect the dots? "
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Your thoughts on Mr Sowell?
 

Duff Miver

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Right behind you
The problem with so-called conservatives is that they are not.

Would a true fiscal conservative vote for a Medicare drug program with no way to pay for it?

Would a true political conservative vote for an unjustifiable war?

Would a true Constitutional conservative vote for a Patriot Act which violates the Constitution?

Would a true individual rights conservative prefer business profits to individual health?

Would a true rule-of-law conservative oppose prosecuting those who violate the laws against torture?

Would a true financial conservative lower taxes and cause budget deficits?

Would a true conservative fill his pockets with bribe money from Oil, Big Pharma and Insurance?

There's only one Conservative in the entire US Congress - Ron Paul, and even he's suspect.

Call yourself a Conservative? You don't know what the word means.
 

layinwood

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Duff, as always we appreciate your valuable insight. You bring a lot to the table and I can't express to you how much it means to us.
 

ELVIS

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Chadman, I think my big question is what have they done to try and help control costs? Everyone talks about how much health insurance has risen and because of that we need something else but why haven't they spent the time and energy doing something about costs rather than a complete overhaul?

Small business is the key in my industries to keeping prices at a fair level. If Lowes and Home Depot start raising prices too high, then Mom and Pop come in to my city and open a hardware store that can compete because the two big guys raised their prices too high. Mom and Pop can do this because opening one store is a viable option. The same thing happens in all of the cites where Lowes and Home Depot are open. This keeps Lowes and Home Depot in check because the small business CAN compete. In Health insurance you can't do that and I feel that this is the problem. Why not develop a system where a small business could come in and compete.


woody, you stopped responding to my emails..... its all good. i did appreciate the diet advice.
 

ELVIS

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The problem with so-called conservatives is that they are not.

Would a true fiscal conservative vote for a Medicare drug program with no way to pay for it?
NO.

Would a true political conservative vote for an unjustifiable war? NO, but bush was not a conservative, nor were many of his buddies.

Would a true Constitutional conservative vote for a Patriot Act which violates the Constitution? NO, see above.

Would a true individual rights conservative prefer business profits to individual health? this is as usual a bogus question.

Would a true rule-of-law conservative oppose prosecuting those who violate the laws against torture? probably not.

Would a true financial conservative lower taxes and cause budget deficits? lowering taxes does not cause deficits - over spending does....

Would a true conservative fill his pockets with bribe money from Oil, Big Pharma and Insurance? if he were a greedy person - sadly yes.

There's only one Conservative in the entire US Congress - Ron Paul, and even he's suspect. he is too old and that is a shame - he would truly be an incredible president,

Call yourself a Conservative? You don't know what the word means.

I do and I am very conservative. Especially when it come it comes to God, country, and money.
 
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