The ten most popular objections to war and some common-sense responses to them.

Snake Plissken

Registered User
Forum Member
Mar 21, 2000
849
0
0
56
The Island of Manhattan
THOSE OPPOSED to military action in Iraq to depose Saddam Hussein, destroy his weapons of mass destruction, and liberate the 24 million Iraqi citizens under his control cite at least 10 objections to going to war now. These objections range from the arguable to the totally absurd. Let's examine them.

(1) Rush to war. This is a favorite of congressional Democrats. But the rush is more like a baby crawl. Iraq has been in material breach of United Nations resolutions since a few weeks after the Gulf War ended in 1991. New resolutions have been approved, inspectors ousted, and the United Nations made to look impotent. President Bush has taken all the steps asked of him before going to war: getting the approval of Congress, getting another U.N. resolution (with perhaps yet another on the way), and building a coalition of supporters. He's hardly rushing.

(2) It's a war for oil. The United States could buy all the oil it wants from Iraq by lifting the sanctions and helping to reconstruct the Iraqi oilfields. It's the French and Russians who have oil deals with Saddam and thus are fixated on that issue. They don't want a war that would upset those deals.

(3) War with Iraq will bring more terrorism. This is a hardy perennial. It was claimed before the Gulf war and the Afghanistan campaign--and when bombs fell on al Qaeda and the Taliban during Ramadan. Rather than more terrorism, removing Saddam will bring more respect for the United States. Terrorists will be increasingly fearful.

(4) The Arab street will erupt. Another perennial. This is often predicted but rarely happens. A swift, decisive victory over Saddam will quiet the Arab street. So far, only the American street has erupted--against the French and Germans.

(5) Bush is doing it for his dad. President Bush the elder stopped short of deposing Saddam in the Gulf war and to this day believes he did the right thing. So do his top aides, such as national security adviser Brent Scowcroft. Instead, they agreed to a truce with Saddam conditioned on Iraq's full disarmament. Also, consider the source of this charge: Martin Sheen.

(6) Attacking Iraq would be unprovoked aggression. No, it wouldn't. Andrew Sullivan has pointed out a significant fact: There was no peace treaty, only the truce, so the state of war resumes when the conditions are violated. By attacking now, the United States would be ending the war, not starting it.

(7) Containment is working. The problem is the right threat is not being contained: the spread of weapons of mass destruction. Sure, with U.S. troops and U.N. inspectors in the area, Saddam won't attack Jordan or Syria or other neighbors. But he could slip chemical or biological agents to terrorists without anyone knowing. And that's the threat.

(8) America doesn't have enough allies. What? Forty or so isn't enough? Is the case for war weakened in the slightest by the absence of the French or the Angolans? No. And despite what Democrats like Howard Dean say, a war with Iraq would not be "unilateral," which would mean the United States would be acting alone.

(9) Win without war. That's a nice goal. Unfortunately, it's Saddam's goal. With no war, he wins and emerges as the new strongman in the Middle East, forcing people to come to terms with him.

(10) Bush is seeking a new American empire. This is a favorite accusation of Democratic presidential candidate Dennis Kucinich, the man who once recited the Gettysburg Address in Donald Duck's voice. I'll let Secretary of State Colin Powell answer this one. When hectored by a former archbishop of Canterbury on this subject recently, he said: "We have gone forth from our shores repeatedly over the last 100 years . . . and put wonderful young men and women at risk, many of whom have lost their lives, and we have asked for nothing except enough ground to bury them in." Well said.

No doubt opponents are capable of coming up with new arguments against war with Iraq. They'd better do so soon because so far they haven't convinced anyone outside the reflexively anti-Bush crowd.
 

dr. freeze

BIG12 KING
Forum Member
Aug 25, 2001
7,170
8
0
Mansion
the only one i think makes sense is leave them alone and let them fight each other...they have been fighting each other for centuries and no need to give them a common enemy

thats the only one i can think of that makes sense and i think it DOES need to be taken into consideration

but world is too small now to do that i think
 

Patron

Registered User
Forum Member
Feb 19, 2003
60
0
0
47
Parkersburg, WVA
Every one of them with the exception of 10 could very likely happen. There is no proof either way that it will or will not happen.
 

maverick2112

Registered User
Forum Member
Jan 16, 2001
2,967
5
38
Wyoming
The question I wish someone would answer me is...............

If we were so concerned with Iraq's dissarming why did this issue not come up for 12 years?

Iraq has been in material breach of United Nations resolutions since a few weeks after the Gulf War ended in 1991.

If we and the rest of the UN were really concerned about Iraq actually dissarming why didnt shit hit the fan when Saddam kicked the inspectors out in 1998. Seems to me if we were thought Iraq really truly was a threat, we would have been watching and reporting every move that was made since the end of the gulf war.
 

Patron

Registered User
Forum Member
Feb 19, 2003
60
0
0
47
Parkersburg, WVA
Excellent question, I think all you have to do is follow the trail of money to see this is for the oil. North Korea is definitly a more direct threat to the safety of the world than Iraq will ever be.
 

djv

Registered User
Forum Member
Nov 4, 2000
13,817
17
0
Im not anti Bush. I even voted for him. Lets face it we did not have much to vote for last election. I went with him as the lesser of two problems. So when I agree with him I say so. When I dont I say so to. I voted gives me the right. I was second guessing my self before 9/11.
These items here can be turn around and give a reason to question them.
Item 1, Rush. Very true no rush. But some how in last 6 months a rush started.
Item 2, We do buy oil from Iraq. But we can not buy all we want. there are sanctions on Iraq oil.
Item 3, it could happen.
item 5, Maybe alittle bit for Dad. Why not I would do it for mine.
Item 6, He did not invade Kuwate a second time. Not sure who he did.
Item 7, not sure if that was working or not who does? But I did say. If he realy is high risk to his neigbors and Europe. Let them take care of it. Why always us. Chit Europe and his neigbors can handle what he had left to fight with.
Item 8, I don't care so much about what anyone was doing to help us. They did not do much 91 war. I want some one else in there 6 months after the battle is over to get Iraq off our hands. We dont need to be there 2/3 years.
Item 9, We were winning with out war. It just did not meet this time table. That after 12 years it somehow was to be done now. I dont even remember anymore who deside that. I know there was some UN resolutions. In that case were is trouble. There are many countires that have not done what the UN has said. Even our friends in Israel. In fact they may have more aginst them then Iraq. I know N Korea has plenty. Guess we better start with Israel there the closes to all our troops. What about China with there birth control issues. What was last years estimates maybe 2 million babies never got to take a second breath. And what about China scaring Taiwan all the time. Oh heck just can go on all day.
Item 10, would take some one smarter then Bush to pull that one off. Howeve there are parts of the world that believe it. And that's there excuse for hating us.

Heck that was easy to play with. However the battle has started and I believe we now see it through to the end. I also believe all protest should stop during the war.
 

TheShrimp

Registered User
Forum Member
Jan 15, 2002
1,138
0
0
52
Plisken, basically what you have copy and pasted here is someone making the arguments for the people who are anti-war and then shooting holes in those arguments. It's presented as if its an analytical look at the anti-war position, when in fact its anything but.

Furthermore, you have a default position "we need go to war" and then rebut arguments against that default position. The point of view one should take here is to leave things are they are (were) and then decide if we need to go to war. To flip it around on you...

Why do we need to go to war with Iraq?

1) To liberate the iraqi people. Well, we're liberating some of the people and its not so clear that they want to be liberated (yes yes, the party line is that they can't act happy to see us because they're still living in fear). In fact, the notion that America will be the liberators of the oppressed in Iraq is presumptuous, arrogant and narrow. It smacks of colonialism to think that a country will be better off if they're more like us or even that they could be like us. [you know, every time I hear someone think these guys envy us, I think about people eating 2 feet of horse rectum on Fear Factor to win $50,000 to pay for BUTT IMPLANTS. That actually sounds like things Saddam does to people as examples of torture.]

2) To stop Hussein from developing WMD. Well, his nuclear capabilities are shot. His chemical weapons seem to be non-existent so far in this war. Even if he has them, that's a pretty rough thing to crucify him for considering WE GAVE THEM TO HIM. they're fighting us with machine guns in the back of pickups and we're worried about them getting a bomb over here. Real funny.

3) To depose of the despotic leader. Sure. He's a despot, an asshole, a dictator who tortures his own people, and so are 50 or so other leaders around the world who we're not going to war with. He's also the same asshole who we helped maintain power and fight other nations until he outlived his usefulness to us.

4) To stop the spread of terrorism. Well, this relates to your #3 and is completely valid. If you think the notion that this will bring MORE terrorism to the US is silly, consider that both attacks on the World Trade Centers, the bombing of the USS Cole, the attacks on American civilians in Saudi Arabia and Africa have all happened AFTER a strong show of force in Desert Storm. Now try to tell me a strong US showing here will reduce terrorism directed against us.

5) To stabilize the region. Sure, its stabilized the region. It's gotten all the Arabs, for once, to get together on something, hating the USA. Well done.

6) To get the people responsible for 9/11. Well, actually we seem to be doing a pretty good job of that in Afghanistan and Pakistan, exactly the places we should be looking. Oh, there are hints and allegations of Iraqi knowledge, but the closer we look, the less concrete those things seem to be.

7) Whatever the latest thing they've done to one of our soldiers carrying out this war. "well, we need to get rid of these guys now. Look what they did to that US marine." "umm...but what if that marine was still in the US?" "Hey, that's TREASON."

8) Whichever one of these seems like the easiest "sell" once we decimate the Iraqi forces and police the cities while remaining resistance snipes and suicide bombs our "peacekeepers".
 

maverick2112

Registered User
Forum Member
Jan 16, 2001
2,967
5
38
Wyoming
6) To get the people responsible for 9/11. Well, actually we seem to be doing a pretty good job of that in Afghanistan and Pakistan, exactly the places we should be looking. Oh, there are hints and allegations of Iraqi knowledge, but the closer we look, the less concrete those things seem to be

If we were really interested in this we would sure as hell have a lot more of our attention on Saudi Arabia and all the shit that goes on there.............

1) To liberate the iraqi people

Has it ever occurred to anyone that these people like the way their government works......and they dont want a change.


Great Points Shrimp.........I have been thinking about some of these issues for months now..............Does'nt anyone ever wonder that maybe Bush and his people dont really know what they are doing.........I am not saying they do or dont but sometimes you have to wonder???

To stabilize the region???..........there are some who believe that this can never be accomplished no matter what we do...........
 

Eddie Haskell

Matt 02-12-11
Forum Member
Feb 13, 2001
4,595
41
0
25
Cincinnati
aclu.org
Likewise, Shrimp, great response.

Most agree that democracy will not work in Iraq. I have often thought that the most effective form of government is a benevolent dictatorship. This aint in the cards so what is gonna happen in post-sadaam Iraq??

After all this country played a role in getting Sadaam established in Iraq when we supported his predecessor (cant remember his name). My concerns are the big picture.....increased terrorism, further eroding of the UN, further polarization of the US and the arab world.

Long term effects of our military victory causes me believe we lost this war when we fired the first shot.

Ed
 

nighthorse

Registered User
Forum Member
Nov 26, 2001
1,783
0
0
56
wichita, ks 67209
Shrimp

Shrimp

A refutation of your refutation:


As to no. 1......you blew off the party line of fear, but it's true. We're partially responsible for that fear by encouraging Saddam's overthrow and hanging them out to dry. Not going to defend Fear Factor, but most objective people I think would prefer the freedoms we have compared to Iraq.

no. 2 I don't know what he still has. There's plenty of documentation to show he should still have very large amounts of various nerve gases and biological agents. Because we screwed up and gave them to him in the first place makes it all that much more important that we make the sacrifices necessary to take them away. And it's not that tough to make and deliver a bomb. Tim McVeigh was a goofball. Look what he managed to do.

no. 3 You've got to start somewhere, this asshole seems as good a place to start as any, the fact that we once supported him seems like a silly argument to keep supporting him. He's our mess, we should clean it up....and yes he has worn out his usefulness, another good reason to get rid of him.

no. 4 You forget that all those instances occured after a horribly weak showing in Somalia, which I think is far more relavent. The terrorists and tyrants took great comfort in that debacle.

no. 5 Stabilization will only occur after a successful campaign and the determination to stay until a democratically elected government is in place. The jury is still out on that one.

no. 6 The Ansar-al-Islam geurillas in the north, the Al-Qeuda training camp south of Baghdad are but a couple of many links between the government and the terrorists. I'd lay 100-1 odds that there's more to come.

no. 7 Their treatment of prisoners just shows that those who proclaimed the evil of this regime were on track.

no. 8 Certainly a possibility. Those of us who agree with the war think it's worth the risk.
 

TheShrimp

Registered User
Forum Member
Jan 15, 2002
1,138
0
0
52
Yes, Nighthorse.

Those are all reasonable alternative viewpoints to what I wrote. I might not think its enough to be to war over. Some others who have considered them and puzzled them out do think so (you, gardenweassel, djv - maybe. still not clear where he stands) -- at least certainly moreso than cutting and pasting mass emailings.

I'm fine with that.
 

Patron

Registered User
Forum Member
Feb 19, 2003
60
0
0
47
Parkersburg, WVA
Very good rebuttal guys, like I said I voted for Bush and I will not be voting for him again. This whole Uraq hostile invasion is based on OIL and it will be of financial benefit to Bush and his cronies.
 

nighthorse

Registered User
Forum Member
Nov 26, 2001
1,783
0
0
56
wichita, ks 67209
If it was all about oil, Bush and his cronies could have already made a lot of money if they had pushed on back in 1991. The oil argument is probably the weakest of all the arguments.

If any of this is about oil, it's France, Germany and Russia not wanting to go to war to benefit from oil contracts and recouping money Iraq already owes them.
 

TheShrimp

Registered User
Forum Member
Jan 15, 2002
1,138
0
0
52
I think to a degree it's about oil, but moreso in a complicated, global, socio, economic blah blah blah sense.

The fact that we have any interest in that region at all is due to the oil there. The reasons that we're worried about THIS NUTJOB SADDAM, in particular, and not some other nutjob is that he's sitting on one of the largest stores of oil in the world.

The reason we're worried about his effect on stability of this region (and not say, the stability of the korean peninsula, or india/pakistan, or rwanda) is that this region is the oil region.

I don't think its about OIL in the sense that we're going to go in to steal his oil and make money off it. But I think if you couple Saddam's behavior with his oil stores is what makes removing him more urgent to us than removing others. I think it's at least a contributing factor.
 

AR182

Registered User
Forum Member
Nov 9, 2000
18,654
87
0
Scottsdale,AZ
Patron,

I am the complete opposite of you.I voted for gore, but am glad that Bush is the president for this terrorism problem. I also think Bush is doing a good job in handling this problem.As Bush is the elected leader of our country & if his administration feels that saddam should be taken out, then I am willing to believe him until he is proven wrong, if he is proven wrong.If our president, no matter who is in iffice says that a country is threat to our national security, has wmd, & the people of that country are being tortured, I will agree with that decision. And based on what I have read, heard & seen on tv I believe history will show that this is the right decision.

I have read a few of your posts & in each post you have mentioned that this war is about our controlling iraq's oil.Ferdville in another thread gave a very good reply to this oil accusation. Don't know if you read it but he essentially said that there are other countries that produce more oil than iraq, & with more modern & better equipment than iraq & is easier for us to attack than iraq.Other than you saying this, is there any info that you have read that can prove that this war is about oil ?
 

nighthorse

Registered User
Forum Member
Nov 26, 2001
1,783
0
0
56
wichita, ks 67209
shrimp

shrimp

Well said. Oil plays a large geopolitical role in all this. Oil played a much bigger part in 1991 when Saddam was attempting to take over oil fields that actually were modern and efficient. Patron insists its all about oil and making money, which is a bogus and intellectually lazy argument.

I'd like to be kinder, but I can't come up with another way to express it.
 
Bet on MyBookie
Top