9 rounds to 3 my ass by 2 of them at best with the knock down late in 12th and point taken away for low blow was a draw at best he still lost by a point in many writers and my eyes. It is who works the fight and it was not Toney. That was a disgrace. Even well named boxers there said it was a joke. This will be looked into you can count on it. Not that it will change out come but all 3 will never judge again. If it is not in vegas or atlantic city you will have piss poor judges. tx does a good job. that was a big joke and another black eye for boxing. Fight could of gone either way but not 9-3 it was a draw at best for Toney.
Toney fight Judges should never judge again
- Thread starter fletcher
- Start date
i had
i had
toney winning close....jirov was busier,but many punches were on the arms......toney landed the cleaner shots that did the most damage..... toney laying on the ropes looks bad,but ali did much the same thing and was considered a genius(which i think was b.s......laying on the ropes shouldn`t help you win rounds)....
i think the point taken away for what were legit low blows and the knockdown were the difference...
jirov worked the body pretty well,but throws to many useless punches....may be the reason he folded in the 12th,even though toney may have been the more tired....
i agree that the fight was much closer than what the judges had....i got toney at +170....so maybe i`m not entirely objective......this thing dropped to +119 at some places by fight time...the books got buried...
again,i agree that the scores were off...but,toney did the damage...and punchstat had him landing over 100 more punches...
i wouldn`t put much credence in what lou duva says...he`s a joke and he hates the goossens...and letterman is a disgrace...
but i agree with fletch....those scores were off....i don`t think jirov got enough credit for being aggressive.....
may be the first real fight of the year candidate....
i had
toney winning close....jirov was busier,but many punches were on the arms......toney landed the cleaner shots that did the most damage..... toney laying on the ropes looks bad,but ali did much the same thing and was considered a genius(which i think was b.s......laying on the ropes shouldn`t help you win rounds)....
i think the point taken away for what were legit low blows and the knockdown were the difference...
jirov worked the body pretty well,but throws to many useless punches....may be the reason he folded in the 12th,even though toney may have been the more tired....
i agree that the fight was much closer than what the judges had....i got toney at +170....so maybe i`m not entirely objective......this thing dropped to +119 at some places by fight time...the books got buried...
again,i agree that the scores were off...but,toney did the damage...and punchstat had him landing over 100 more punches...
i wouldn`t put much credence in what lou duva says...he`s a joke and he hates the goossens...and letterman is a disgrace...
but i agree with fletch....those scores were off....i don`t think jirov got enough credit for being aggressive.....
may be the first real fight of the year candidate....
Great fight, I thought Toney won without question, especially taking into account the lowblow deduction and the knockdown in the 12th. The margin the judges had was very surprising though. Jirov threw a ton of punches...that's about it. Never had Toney in trouble and Toney connected on more punches, vastly higher percentage especially in regards to power shots. I'm not a big fan of one guy going in there and throwing 90 punches per round with only about 20 percent connecting while standing there like a statue. Great conditioning and effort by Jirov but that just didn't do it for me. Toney picked him apart and was the much more effective/efficient fighter.
All I'll say is that in a lot of those rounds with Toney on the ropes he was landing more punches and cleaner punches.
Jirov was unquestionably more aggressive, but not nearly as accurate and they had similar power shots.
If you take away the low blow and the knockdown, I think this is an even fight. Figure those in and you have to have Toney winning it. Consider -- I had it 5 rounds to 5 with one round even going into the 12th. If you give the round with the low blow 10-8 to Toney, then you have a very skewed number.
I was surprised as the lopsided scores but in a fight that's tough to score just a couple of "flip-flopped" 10-9's coupled with a 10-8 can turn an even fight into a 117-111 kind of thing.
Questionable. Maybe. Not a travesty, though.
Jirov was unquestionably more aggressive, but not nearly as accurate and they had similar power shots.
If you take away the low blow and the knockdown, I think this is an even fight. Figure those in and you have to have Toney winning it. Consider -- I had it 5 rounds to 5 with one round even going into the 12th. If you give the round with the low blow 10-8 to Toney, then you have a very skewed number.
I was surprised as the lopsided scores but in a fight that's tough to score just a couple of "flip-flopped" 10-9's coupled with a 10-8 can turn an even fight into a 117-111 kind of thing.
Questionable. Maybe. Not a travesty, though.
I have now watched it 3 times and i think i have been to more fights then most avg people and know the scoring and what is looked at. I stand by what i saw it was it could of gone either way but should of ben a draw. Toney was gased at times and was also hurt at times and the punch in the 11th where he almost went down was not due to a wet floor it caught him on the head clean. Also Toneys corner was right in what they said in the 12th that he needed a knock down to have a chance. He has a great trainer that does not bullshit he knew his fighter was losing going into 12th by a point or 2 in his mind. There is no-way in hell that the scores were right, You can talk to you are blue in the face but was not a 9 round to 3 fight. Like i said after watching it 3 times and i can stop and slow mo it and go back with my system. it could of gone either way or a draw but that score was not even in the ball park. Look around the net and see what real boxing writers thought not what you hear hbo , sonny p and royce fure, they were all split and tied guys like that who cover boxing and only boxing for the major papers who could judge better then most.
Toney is a blow hard and he would get his ass drilled by chris Byrd or Roy Jones. Hell he was talking about Hopkins he would get tore up if they met inbetween weight , Hopkins could take him now. He still has a heavy punch and good deff but he is not in the elite boxing force.
Toney is a blow hard and he would get his ass drilled by chris Byrd or Roy Jones. Hell he was talking about Hopkins he would get tore up if they met inbetween weight , Hopkins could take him now. He still has a heavy punch and good deff but he is not in the elite boxing force.
I agree with Fletcher here. The fight could have gone either way (I thought the last second knockdown would edge it to Toney) but the scorecards were embarassing. The fight obviously was determined out of the ring.
Hell of a fight regardless.
Hell of a fight regardless.
I agree with fletcher. Hard fight to watch. Dont think I could watch that three times. Judges stunk.
Toney is a has been. He should retire.
King of Dogs
Toney is a has been. He should retire.
King of Dogs
i stick by toney close...
i stick by toney close...
but i agree the scoring margin was a little to wide for him....i also think that toney`s best days are behind him and if he steps up in weight to fight a byrd,it`s gonna be trouble..toney`s got a lotta hard miles on him and the yo yoing weight is taking it`s toll...he was still skilled enough to pull one out vs a somewhat unskilled guy used to overwhelming weaker opposition....the connect percentages told the story....making punches count...toney`s still got that "hide in plain sight" defense that bernard hopkins uses...
but,his best days are behind him...
i stick by toney close...
but i agree the scoring margin was a little to wide for him....i also think that toney`s best days are behind him and if he steps up in weight to fight a byrd,it`s gonna be trouble..toney`s got a lotta hard miles on him and the yo yoing weight is taking it`s toll...he was still skilled enough to pull one out vs a somewhat unskilled guy used to overwhelming weaker opposition....the connect percentages told the story....making punches count...toney`s still got that "hide in plain sight" defense that bernard hopkins uses...
but,his best days are behind him...
Well, Doug Fischer said he gave 7 rounds to Toney.
Boston Herald had it 115-110 for Toney (which I don't understand unless they had 3 10-8 rounds or one 10-7 round). I was looking for Ron Borges, but all I could find was the Herald scorecard. But, HBO had the low-blow round 9-9. the judges, and others, probably had it 10-8 Toney. I haven't replayed the fight, but I didn't think the round was so skewed towards Jirov at the time that 10-8 was unreasonable.
Dan Rafael didn't mention any controversy about the decision. Couldn't find Michael Katz.
I definitely agree the scoring was too far off, but Toney did have a knockdown and a point deduction.
114-112. That's 5 10-9's for each guy, an even 9-9 and a 10-8 for Toney. That's what Lederman's card would have been if he'd flipped just one of his 10-9's for Jirov.
Scott -- hard fight to watch three times? You kidding me? This was a great fight. Back and forth action. 1800 punches thrown. 500 punches landed. What the hell are you looking for?
You might see a different Toney after this war. But he is always game. A fight with Byrd might be interesting, but Toney would lose.
Boston Herald had it 115-110 for Toney (which I don't understand unless they had 3 10-8 rounds or one 10-7 round). I was looking for Ron Borges, but all I could find was the Herald scorecard. But, HBO had the low-blow round 9-9. the judges, and others, probably had it 10-8 Toney. I haven't replayed the fight, but I didn't think the round was so skewed towards Jirov at the time that 10-8 was unreasonable.
Dan Rafael didn't mention any controversy about the decision. Couldn't find Michael Katz.
I definitely agree the scoring was too far off, but Toney did have a knockdown and a point deduction.
114-112. That's 5 10-9's for each guy, an even 9-9 and a 10-8 for Toney. That's what Lederman's card would have been if he'd flipped just one of his 10-9's for Jirov.
Scott -- hard fight to watch three times? You kidding me? This was a great fight. Back and forth action. 1800 punches thrown. 500 punches landed. What the hell are you looking for?
You might see a different Toney after this war. But he is always game. A fight with Byrd might be interesting, but Toney would lose.
I watched the fight last night. As with the Eric Lucas fight the other week, I fail to see what all the fuss is about. Yes, the judges had Toney too far ahead, but it would be more of a controversy had Toney not been given the decision at all.
I had Toney ahead by two or three points, perhaps a little more with the point deduction. But it doesnt matter what the judges score it, as long as they give the decision to the right fighter, and this happened on this occasion. I think it has already been summed up in this thread, Jirov threw all the punches, but Toney threw the punches that mattered.
OK, it was a decent enough fight to watch, but I did not get the impression I was watching two great fighters! :shrug:
I had Toney ahead by two or three points, perhaps a little more with the point deduction. But it doesnt matter what the judges score it, as long as they give the decision to the right fighter, and this happened on this occasion. I think it has already been summed up in this thread, Jirov threw all the punches, but Toney threw the punches that mattered.
OK, it was a decent enough fight to watch, but I did not get the impression I was watching two great fighters! :shrug:
Crooky, Lucas was robbed as the WBC saw the same thing as us (FIX!!!) and will declare the rematch within the next days. Their judges saw the fight on tape and declared exactly what i,ve already said: it was inconceivable that Lucas lost that fight while he won 8 or 9 round. As soon as i get the details i will post them. I'm not surpise Fletch by what happened, it seems some judges are....
1837 i had EL you know he is one of my main guys now that was a rob job flat out.
yes toney probably did win the fight in the 12th i said it could go either way and gave him props for good deff and heavy hands. but it was off line, i just hate to see unskilled judges.
They big thing i did not like was what was jirov standing the first 9 rounds for in corner , that is a big mistake and it took a toll on his legs with the heavy punches he took. You need to rest between rounds. If it was to scare toney that is one thing that was not going to happen toney will not back down from anyone.
watch the pittsbugh kid in a few weeks it is very hard to beat him when he is fighting in pittsbugh.
as for the fight i watched it again today i thought it was great i love to watch guys who punch and not dance and hold. Jirov should of never mixed it up in the 12th his corner thought he was up and so did toneys, so he should of stayed away but it seemed like he had to try and prove something and it cost him the fight i think and the low blow and it was a hard low blow at that. he could of lost a few points due to low blows. But i must say both off these guys went out and put on a show.
I don't like toney for a few reasons but like gw and i said he still has that great old time deff. and can also drop a guy with a shot still but legs are shot and you can't bounce weight at his age like he does. But in prime time he earned the name lights out i have to give him the respect but not the judges. I think Em has a big night here sat. this is a personal battle besides a boxing match, my concern is his hands and how are they? But will be playing the pittsbugh kid in a few weeks and more then not the over.
I think
yes toney probably did win the fight in the 12th i said it could go either way and gave him props for good deff and heavy hands. but it was off line, i just hate to see unskilled judges.
They big thing i did not like was what was jirov standing the first 9 rounds for in corner , that is a big mistake and it took a toll on his legs with the heavy punches he took. You need to rest between rounds. If it was to scare toney that is one thing that was not going to happen toney will not back down from anyone.
watch the pittsbugh kid in a few weeks it is very hard to beat him when he is fighting in pittsbugh.
as for the fight i watched it again today i thought it was great i love to watch guys who punch and not dance and hold. Jirov should of never mixed it up in the 12th his corner thought he was up and so did toneys, so he should of stayed away but it seemed like he had to try and prove something and it cost him the fight i think and the low blow and it was a hard low blow at that. he could of lost a few points due to low blows. But i must say both off these guys went out and put on a show.
I don't like toney for a few reasons but like gw and i said he still has that great old time deff. and can also drop a guy with a shot still but legs are shot and you can't bounce weight at his age like he does. But in prime time he earned the name lights out i have to give him the respect but not the judges. I think Em has a big night here sat. this is a personal battle besides a boxing match, my concern is his hands and how are they? But will be playing the pittsbugh kid in a few weeks and more then not the over.
I think
Happy to see you like Eric! I know him quite well!
About Spadafora, i know he will fight in his town (Pitt) in 3 weeks and that is why Dorin will go for the KO. Dorin's coach is the same as Eric Lucas as he doesn't want to see another of his boxer getting rob by judges. However, Spadafora is good on defense and if i was him, i would try to be conservative and wait til the end to win a unanimous decision. That fight is easy to predict; It's either Dorin by KO (with his strenght, it wouldn't surprise me!) or Spadafora by decision... Should be a great fight!
I know him quite well! About Spadafora, i know he will fight in his town (Pitt) in 3 weeks and that is why Dorin will go for the KO. Dorin's coach is the same as Eric Lucas as he doesn't want to see another of his boxer getting rob by judges. However, Spadafora is good on defense and if i was him, i would try to be conservative and wait til the end to win a unanimous decision. That fight is easy to predict; It's either Dorin by KO (with his strenght, it wouldn't surprise me!) or Spadafora by decision... Should be a great fight!
it`s what makes boxing interesting
it`s what makes boxing interesting
you get guys on this forum that absolutely know their s-it,and they disagree.....doesn`t mean you are right or wrong....i admit to having a toney bias here....money tends to do that....but,you can get 2 boxing guys to disagree on many fights(and neither have any stake in the outcome).....
all it does it create interesting debate and heat the boxing forum up....
the war kinda took my focus away from boxing and posting.....now,it`s back to business....
in synopsis,i thought it was a guy who was past his prime,but still had some of the skills that previously had him as a top 10 pound for pound guy vs a younger,stronger,naturally bigger guy that is a lefty and was used to overwhelming his opponents...
and i thought it was an excellent fight with excellent ebb and flow of momentum....i`ll bet not many that had anything on this bout stayed in their seat for the whole fight ....i know i was exhausted afterward...it`s ashamed anybody had to lose(or lose money)....
unfortunately,we have several "walkover" bouts coming this weekend(delahoya and morales should coast)....
i am looking forward to the spadafora-dorin bout....and some others...i`m gonna post some stuff early on some of these as these odds tend to move pretty fast and value is gone before i post....
great hearing from all the guys in the boxing forum again....let`s get back to business and make ourselves some beer money....g.l.
it`s what makes boxing interesting
you get guys on this forum that absolutely know their s-it,and they disagree.....doesn`t mean you are right or wrong....i admit to having a toney bias here....money tends to do that....but,you can get 2 boxing guys to disagree on many fights(and neither have any stake in the outcome).....
all it does it create interesting debate and heat the boxing forum up....
the war kinda took my focus away from boxing and posting.....now,it`s back to business....
in synopsis,i thought it was a guy who was past his prime,but still had some of the skills that previously had him as a top 10 pound for pound guy vs a younger,stronger,naturally bigger guy that is a lefty and was used to overwhelming his opponents...
and i thought it was an excellent fight with excellent ebb and flow of momentum....i`ll bet not many that had anything on this bout stayed in their seat for the whole fight
....i know i was exhausted afterward...it`s ashamed anybody had to lose(or lose money)....unfortunately,we have several "walkover" bouts coming this weekend(delahoya and morales should coast)....
i am looking forward to the spadafora-dorin bout....and some others...i`m gonna post some stuff early on some of these as these odds tend to move pretty fast and value is gone before i post....
great hearing from all the guys in the boxing forum again....let`s get back to business and make ourselves some beer money....g.l.
E. Lucas has been a cash cow the last year or so, does not matter if he is the best of the best he has been a good money maker and that is what i look for.
Don't know if Em will let it go 9.5 rounds he has made this a personal fight.
Don't know if Em will let it go 9.5 rounds he has made this a personal fight.
just by luck, i actually saw this game replayed today on TV and man...i saw the rounds from 8 on....
(i don't even watch boxing....)
but MAN, that was an exciting fight in the end....
the wife and I were like, yelling at the TV in the last round for TONEY to KNOCK HIM THE FAWK DOWN!!!!
Jirov looked pretty damn tired in the last round, but man, i was jacked.
just had to thrown in my bit.
i may watch boxing more often if it comes on TSN.
:shrug:
(i don't even watch boxing....)
but MAN, that was an exciting fight in the end....
the wife and I were like, yelling at the TV in the last round for TONEY to KNOCK HIM THE FAWK DOWN!!!!
Jirov looked pretty damn tired in the last round, but man, i was jacked.
just had to thrown in my bit.
i may watch boxing more often if it comes on TSN.
:shrug:
