Tyson and the big stink (long)

[TheShrimp]

I suppose ND's write up in the free picks forum got me thinking about this.

SO, there's a big stink being made in DC about Tyson fighting there. Woman's groups, the self-righteous, etc.

Whether I agree with them or not (I'll get to that later) is irrelevant to my question, which is: why don't people make a similar stink about athletes in other sports who happen to be guilty of similar infractions (assault, sexual assault, obstruction of justice, etc.)?

Is it simply because Tyson is worse than these other athletes, and if so, do you draw an arbitrary line of badness above which you start making a fuss?

Is there something inherently different when its an athlete in an individual sport? If that's the case, would there be a siimilar uproar if it was a tennis player, or a golfer convicted of similar things?

If the argument is simply "I don't want to see this criminal prosper in this city" then there's got to be a similar furor about lots and lots of other things.

I agree with Nolan's main point that it is hypocritical for those in DC who chastise Vegas for its "sins" to allow Tyson license in DC.

However, I'm not sure I agree that Tyson shouldn't be given a license to box because he's a convicted criminal. I have to return to the question I raised above about why it shouldn't happen to athletes other than boxers, or boxers other than Tyson. Bernard Hopkins is a convicted criminal (I think he stabbed somebody), but no one is up in arms about his licenses. Jason Kidd punched his wife in the face. Should he not be allowed to play basketball in DC? Am I missing an essential difference here? I won't get into whether I think it is morally and ethically the correct thing to deny Tyson a license (too deep an issue), but if the reason of the denial is his *legal* convictions, then I just don't think that's consistent with how we treat other athletes.

Deny Tyson a license because he bit somebody in the ring. Fine. Deny him a license because he told his corner he'd get DQ'ed before taking a loss against Holyfield. Fine. But not because he's a convicted criminal.

Now, more personal views, devoid of logic: I like watching sports. I like seeing the best athletes in every sport compete against each other. I'm not looking to them for moral guidance, and kids with responsible parents shouldn't be either. Whether Tyson has been convicted of rape, assault, murder or jaywalking does not change the fact that I will pay to watch him fight. I feel the same way about watching Jason Kidd play. I don't care about the legal shortcomings of the athletes I watch any more than I care about it with the actors I watch, musicians I listen to, or authors I read.

Thanks. Any comments/answers to my questions are appreciated.
TheShrimp

 

[Phil Turcotte]

I totally agree with you. The National Organization for Women (NOW) doesnt want Tyson to fight because it is sending the wrong message to women, and boy they will not shut up about it.

What about Jason Kidd? Did they protest when he was in town? He beat his wife in the face. Terry Glenn hit his wife with a toaster. What about when the Jazz were in town? Deshawn Stevenson assaulted - sorry (cough cough) had consensual sex - with a FOURTEEN YEAR OLD GIRL! Thats enough to make me sick. I didnt see NOW at the MCI Center that night. Ray Lewis plays in the area and he was (cough cough) found innocent of all charges. Murderers, rapists, drug users and all sorts of people play sports.

Tyson is a sick man, I cannot argue that. But he has paid his legal debt to society. I wish all the high-horsers I have to listen to during the day would remember that. Much worse goes on in this town. I mean Marion Barry got caught with crack and a hooker and got re-elected, what kind of message is that sending?

Larry Bird is one of my favorite athletes of all time. Watching him at the old Garden was a pure joy and something I will never forget. But he is a terrible father, ignores his daughter and could certainly be considered a morally dispicable human being. But that doesnt change my enjoyment of the sport.

And to (somewhat) respectfully disagree with Nolan, I think calling the people that want to see this fight "hoods and leeches" not only a bit much, but also disrespectful to the rest of the people in this city. I want to see this fight, and I consider myself an upstanding citizen of good moral character who happens to live right nearby you. A lot of good people live and work in DC Nolan, and a lot of hard working people work for the local and federal government. To call them all corrupt, lazy assed and whores isnt like you.

 

[Felonious Monk]

Phil is right. Tyson might be a walking pile of shit but besides him, there has not been a more exciting heavyweight boxer to watch in a long time. The heavyweight ranks since Tyson's implosion have been filled with a bunch of fat pretenders that no one really gives a shit about watching. The entire sport of boxing, especially heavyweight boxing, might have folded, as far as TV goes. Tyson is the reason I, and millions of others, watch boxing.

That being said, unless Tyson can win in the early rounds, he'll lose his mind again and Lewis will either win by knockout or Mike's disqualification. Of course, it might be worth it to see what crazy shit Tyson would come up with to follow up the ear-biting. Maybe he'd go for a nut while dodging a cross.

It's the entertainment value, and he definitely brings it.

 

[ryson]

I have a few things to say in regards to the NOW (National org of Whiners) group they pick and choose their issues, for example I live in Houston so I am sure y'all have heard about the wack job that is on trial down here right now. The NOW got on the stump in regards to her needing a defense fund and you know how much they raised? A whole whopping 15K, the counselors in the group can contest this will not get you a jailhouse lawyer let alone decent counsel. It's all a farce and y'all know who gets stuck with the bill for these stupid lobby groups, yes it's us, simple folk who just try to provide for ourselves and our families and then get stuck with that large tax bill @ the end of the year. Thank God I live in Texas....no state taxes.

just my .02

 

[ferdville]

Don't really get too excited about any special interest group like NOW or PETA and their rants and raves. But respectfully disagree with those that want to claim Tyson as one of the best heavyweights of this or any other era. People don't watch Tyson in awe of his boxing skill. They watch to see what this certifiable nut case will do next. It's like going to NASCAR just to see a wreck. Tyson has great entertainment value to be sure. But he ranks far below many others when it comes to heavyweight champions in boxing history.

 

[Nolan Dalla]

My esteemed colleague PHIL wrote:

"A lot of good people live and work in DC Nolan, and a lot of hard working people work for the local and federal government. To call them all corrupt, lazy assed and whores isnt like you."

REPLY: Ahhhhhh, but it *IS* like me. If you have been reading my stuff any length of time, you know that I am an anarchist. I came to this town years ago as an idealist with lofty goals, and now I'm a cynic. The government completely changed my view on that. Working in Congress. Working for the State Department. Working in civil service. But I digress.

What I was refering to was not the federal authorities (although I am ready to advocate violence against Congress and the Bush Admistration for allowing nuclear waste to be buried in Nevada, AGAINST Nevadan's wishes (the Feds have been dicking that great state for decades).

I was bashing the DC local government -- which is the force behind this. The same group of whores and hypocrites that wouldn't allow a gambling referendum on th ballot a few years ago (ohh, the EVILS of gambling!!!!!) an now sanctimoniously want to bring the Tyson fight to DC to "boost the economy." Pure bullshit! Why didn't those ignorant fucks allow us to vote on casinos a few years ago?

If I sound angry -- I AM. Theese morons that run the three local governments in this area (DC, MD and VA are the reason -- Phil -- that you and I have to jump in our car an drive THREE HOURS and waste a full tank of gas and pay $20 in tolls to play a legal game of poker. Now, they tell us we "NEED" the Tyson fight.

Fucking hypocrites. Thank God I don't have a gun in the house right now.

PS -- I generally agree with the sentiments above that Tyson legally has a right tofight here. My beef is with local DC officials.

-- Nolan Dalla

 

[Nolan Dalla]

I meant to reply to the following point made by Phil, as well. But, I hit the Send button too soon. Here's another clariffication:

Phil wrote:

I think calling the people that want to see this fight "hoods and leeches" not only a bit much, but also disrespectful to the rest of the people in this city. I want to see this fight, and I consider myself an upstanding citizen of good moral character who happens to live right nearby you.


NOLAN'S REPLY:

You are correct, that not everyone that wants to see this fight is a "hood or a leech." Just about 70 or 80 percent. Ever been to a prize fight, Phil? I assume you have. Both fighters are surrounded by an army of leeches (do any of those homies work a job?). Leeches, Phil. Bad people. As far as hoods, did you catch the news about what happened at the MGM last time Tyson fought here? They had about 20 brawls, inside the casino. Sure, a few decent people might go to the fight -- but the majority leave somthi to be desired in my view.

By the way -- some of my perceptions on this issue were shaped very recently. As a poker player, I think you will identify with it. Please allow me to tell you what happened:

Two weeks ago, when I was in Las Vegas -- I was getting my car out of valet parking. I just so happened to be walking out when Doyle Brunson was sitting there, waiting for his car. Doyle and I started talking, and we somehow got around to boxing (I think he Nevada decision had just been announced). I was shocked that Brunson was so happy tha Nevada has decided against Tyson. Doyle is a big sports gambler and he and Chip, Stuey and the rest used to go to all the big fights at Caesars back in the 70s and 80s. Doyle said that he would NEVER go to a title fight again. He said that he was there once just minding his own business, and one of the leeches from the fighter's entourage grabbed Brunson (who is a big man and ex basketball player himself), through him againt a wall, and threatened to kill him for "getting too close" as the fighter came towards thering. You knowth scene, where th boxer enters the arena an about 50 goons with chains and leather syrroun the boxer on his way to the stage. It takes a lot of intimidate a man like Doyle....and when he told me that story, it really hit home regarding what boxing is all about. Then, you add the Tyson fight scene in the press conference, and the picture becomes CRYSTAL clear.

These guys are hoods and leeches. Period.

-- Nolan Dalla

 

[fletcher]

nolan we agree again,the fuking goverment has really screwed us with yucca mt.

when this starts to happen and it will soon we are back to fl,jeri has a job anytime she wants with a top place in orlando and we have the house in new.smyrna beach. so we will sell here and get the hell out and we arenot they only ones. there will be big changes in vegas when this shit starts flowing here.

this was a slap in our face hell we didnot even have a choice if we did,we would of left the other states who own it keep it,but thats why i don't get into goverenment things because i don't trust them ,all i look for is them to keep country safe and don't even get worked up with other things because they are elected crooks.

i would reather have the old mob run the country and that isnot a joke,least i would know the rules.

i bet 80% of the people on here donot even know what is yucca mt is and what it will do to this state.

as far as tyson and i am in with boxing he shouldnot fight anywhere is is not fit his mind is really screwed up,there is shit that goes on out here when he is home all the time that lot of you don't even hear. most times he is out there is trouble in town with his hoods,won't find it in paper but if you know people you will hear the stories,just set in the crazy horse and see him come in,within a few hours he or his goons will cause trouble,they really don't care for his money nor do the casinos because he ends up causeing more trouble then he spends.

 

[TheShrimp]

Reply to ferd. Off topic

Reply to ferd. Off topic

But respectfully disagree with those that want to claim Tyson as one of the best heavyweights of this or any other era. People don't watch Tyson in awe of his boxing skill. They watch to see what this certifiable nut case will do next. It's like going to NASCAR just to see a wreck. Tyson has great entertainment value to be sure. But he ranks far below many others when it comes to heavyweight champions in boxing history.

Getting a little off topic, here, but this isn't entirely true. When Tyson rose through the ranks to become heavyweight champ at age 19, he was fighting at a level rarely seen. Everyone is familiar with his devastating power with both hands, but people forget that the guy never got hit until he fought Douglas. I doubt that there has ever been a Heavyweight that could slip punches like the young Tyson. He had to because he was so short, and when he slipped and got inside he was all over guys who could do nothing with him. He was too active to even clinch with . I'd put that Tyson up against ANYBODY ever.

I want to watch him now not because I want to see "what this nut case is going to do next" but because I like to see those brief periods during which he looks like he used to: lightning fast, impossible to hit, and powerful. When he got inside on Golota and hit him with that straight right, you could just see Golota's will collapse. It looked like old Tyson again, briefly.

Now to get WAY off topic: against Lewis, I don't give him much of a chance. Lewis' jab *is* powerful, but not super quick, and I think Tyson can get inside. I think Tyson has some chance of getting in a "rahman-like" punch before getting pounded with a Lewis combo. The combo that Lewis took Rahman out with won't work against Tyson because Lewis can't counter-punch Tyson effectively because Tyson throws from inside Lewis' range. He'll have to fight Tyson like he did Tua, and if he wants to be more aggressive, he knows there's a chance he gets knocked out. I lean towards Lewis, but maybe 3:1 gets me on Tyson.

They are both old, though, and that's a big variable in fights. I probably stay away from a bet on this, unless I can lay 3:4 on Lewis or get 3:1 on Tyson, neither of which will happen.

TheShrimp

 

[Phil Turcotte]

Nolan for the most part I agree with you. It is unfathomable to me that "suddenly" Northern Virginia is in such a cash crunch that we need to start cutting school and police budgets. Real good place to start. If DC wasnt worse I would move into the district just to get my NH residency back.

(Hey you know its hard to believe with all of us around the area we have never been able to get a good 5/10-10/20 game going. I played in a few games on what I imagine was a good 10/20 circuit about a year ago, couple places in Southern MD, one at a Greek Club out 66 but ever since I made the bright decision to get my MBA at night thats been out.)


-Phil

 

[MadJack]

it sounds like nevada has opened the door for tyson to re-apply for his license, since his rape charges and whatever else have been dropped.

i betcha he fights in nevada afterall.

 

[Felonious Monk]

Nolan,

I doubt that 70-80% of Tyson's clan represent the overall attendance for any of his fights so in retrospect it sounds like you are pinpointing on a rather broad scale. What makes someone going to see a Tyson fight a "leech" anyway? Just curious. It sounds to me that your friend is bitter about what happened to him and because of it, has started stereotyping the typical fan instead of the infringer.

I'm sure that Doyle is a good person but boycotting future events because of what went down, won't change a thing in the boxing world. People go to baseball games and get hit in the head by foul balls but what can one do? NOTHING.

JMHO.

 

[JSMOOTH]

Well said Shrimp...I agree 100%

 

[fletcher]

ok the low down on the tyson fight.

if they want the big money it would have to be here.people can talk all the bs they want like the guy did wanting to put it on in atl,well he didnot have the funds but said he could get them.

well only vegas can put up the 15 mill + putse if it goes somewhere else your looking at 7-10 tops.

pay per veiw willnot sell as much as it would in vegas because its just a fact vegas and big fights have the glitter and glitz. and ppv knows that they have studied it.

for tyson to fight in vegas the rape pending wasnot apart of the case against,because he wasnot even charged back then,but it had a hand in it imo,they said it wasnot to be added in.

he has to wait a year once turned down,inless you get a comm. member bring it up and another 2nd's it. that could happen . but they would make it wait at least in aug more then likely 6 months.
and they would have to have 3 members saying they would vote yes before they would go through this horse and poney show again.

so both fighters will have to put fight on hold if they want the big money.tickets willnot get sold in dc for 1800-2500 for prime tickets ,and can not take care of the high end clients that come to big fights ,your stars donot want to go to dc or anywhere else they want to come to vegas.

the draw at another venue couldnot make much if any for the promoter. can it happen in 6 months here as of today its 50-50 its not about the rape charges they just don't like mike out here.

but now you will see some pressure from the resorts to make it happen more then they did last time. so if its to be a big fight it will have to wait and see if the big boys can buy the revote out here.

then i question if lewis even whants to fight tyson,he might say he does,but deep down he knows mike is sick and can beat him and hurt him bad if he gets caught on that glass chin. mike mightnot be the fighter he was but is sicker then he use to be and can still shatter your face with one shot,and mightnot stop there and lewis knows that. trust me he knows it and many others know it. tyson is still a killer but of a different type,you never know what he can do.

check for my bones adams work up in boxing form will be at ring side

 

[ferdville]

I know it is off topic, but the credit Tyson gets as one of boxing's all-time greats still amazes me. In the grand scheme of things, I suppose you could put him in any list of boxing's top 10 heavyweights, but would you place him above Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Louis, Marciano, Dempsey, Tunney or even Larry Holmes? I know he beat Holmes in 1988 when Holmes was 39 or 40 years old. Where would you put him in relation to Norton, Jack Johnson or Sonny Liston? I'd say he has more in common with the second group than the latter. Tyson had 2 impressive years, 1987-88. But even here he only beat Bonecrusher Smith, Pinklon Thomas, Tony Tucker, Tyrell Biggs, Tony Tubbs, Michael Spinks, and the 39-40 year old Larry Holmes. He went 15-0 in 1985 against no one. In '86 he beat the stellar crowd that included jesse Ferguson, Marvis Frazier, Jose Ribalta and Trevor Burbick (these were the ones we've heard of). He also beat James Tillis and Mitch Green (ring, not street), but took 10 rounds for each. Tyson followed in '89 with wins over Frank Bruno and Carl Williams. After losing to buster, he beat Tillis again and Alex Stewart. Boxing is a great sport to foster arguments because unless the combatants squared off in their prime, who really knows what would have happened. I just think that Mike is more renowned for his personna than his actual skill level; for his potential more than his accomplishments. Of course, I could be way off base.

 

[fletcher]

in the begining he had good skills he had great head movement and combos,that left with rooney. but it was not who mike beat it was how he beat them.

fighters were scaired in the stair down and fighters were lucky to get out of the first,he put fear and hurt like a crazed pit bull he had that look of evil in his eyes like the grim reeper. maybe not one of the all time best but was one of the meanest and shear out crushing punching power,had hands of death,thats what makes tyson different then anyother fighter or any that will be around in the next 5-10 years.

he could flat out put you in a coma within 3 mins and that he deserves his do for.

for shear punching power and and quick kills i rank him as one of the all time best,over all as a total fighter no.

 

[ferdville]

I think that is the point. He reminds me a little of Sonny Liston from the standpoint of scaring the hell out of his opponents. I'll never forget the fight versus Spinks. Michael's terror was obvious before he even stepped in the ring. With his raw power, fearsome attitude, and some real skills - the potential was definitely there for Mike to end up as one of boxing's top five. But, Mike being Mike, you knew that wasn't the legacy he would leave in the ring. As an attraction, who would anyone really rather see?