Wars, Endless Wars

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Chadman

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Wars, Endless Wars
By BOB HERBERT
Published: March 2, 2009

The singer Edwin Starr, who died in 2003, had a big hit in 1970 called ?War? in which he asked again and again: ?War, what is it good for??

The U.S. economy is in free fall, the banking system is in a state of complete collapse and Americans all across the country are downsizing their standards of living. The nation as we?ve known it is fading before our very eyes, but we?re still pouring billions of dollars into wars in Afghanistan and Iraq with missions we are still unable to define.

Even as the U.S. begins plans to reduce troop commitments in Iraq, it is sending thousands of additional troops into Afghanistan. The strategic purpose of this escalation, as Defense Secretary Robert Gates acknowledged, is not at all clear.

In response to a question on NBC?s ?Meet the Press? on Sunday, Mr. Gates said:

?We?re talking to the Europeans, to our allies; we?re bringing in an awful lot of people to get different points of view as we go through this review of what our strategy ought to be. And I often get asked, ?Well, how long will those 17,000 [additional troops] be there? Will more go in?? All that depends on the outcome of this strategy review that I hope will be done in a few weeks.?

We invaded Afghanistan more than seven years ago. We have not broken the back of Al Qaeda or the Taliban. We have not captured or killed Osama bin Laden. We don?t even have an escalation strategy, much less an exit strategy. An honest assessment of the situation, taking into account the woefully corrupt and ineffective Afghan government led by the hapless Hamid Karzai, would lead inexorably to such terms as fiasco and quagmire.

Instead of cutting our losses, we appear to be doubling down.

As for Iraq, President Obama announced last week that substantial troop withdrawals will take place over the next year and a half and that U.S. combat operations would cease by the end of August 2010. But, he said, a large contingent of American troops, perhaps as many as 50,000, would still remain in Iraq for a ?period of transition.?

That?s a large number of troops, and the cost of keeping them there will be huge. Moreover, I was struck by the following comment from the president: ?There will surely be difficult periods and tactical adjustments, but our enemies should be left with no doubt. This plan gives our military the forces and flexibility they need to support our Iraqi partners and to succeed.?

In short, we?re committed to these two conflicts for a good while yet, and there is nothing like an etched-in-stone plan for concluding them. I can easily imagine a scenario in which Afghanistan and Iraq both heat up and the U.S., caught in an extended economic disaster at home, undermines its fragile recovery efforts in the same way that societies have undermined themselves since the dawn of time ? with endless warfare.

We?ve already paid a fearful price for these wars. In addition to the many thousands of service members who have been killed or suffered obvious disabling injuries, a study by the RAND Corporation found that some 300,000 are currently suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder or depression, and that 320,000 have most likely experienced a traumatic brain injury.

Time magazine has reported that ?for the first time in history, a sizable and growing number of U.S. combat troops are taking daily doses of antidepressants to calm nerves strained by repeated and lengthy tours in Iraq and Afghanistan.?

Suicides among soldiers rose in 2008 for the fourth consecutive year, largely because of the stress of combat deployments. It?s believed that 128 soldiers took their own lives last year.

Much of the country can work itself up to a high pitch of outrage because a banker or an automobile executive flies on a private jet. But we?ll send young men and women by the thousands off to repeated excursions through the hell of combat ? three tours, four tours or more ? without raising so much as a peep of protest.

Lyndon Johnson, despite a booming economy, lost his Great Society to the Vietnam War. He knew what he was risking. He would later tell Doris Kearns Goodwin, ?If I left the woman I really loved ? the Great Society ? in order to get involved with that bitch of a war on the other side of the world, then I would lose everything at home. All my programs... All my dreams...?

The United States is on its knees economically. As President Obama fights for his myriad domestic programs and his dream of an economic recovery, he might benefit from a look over his shoulder at the link between Vietnam and the still-smoldering ruins of Johnson?s presidency.
 

Hard Times

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CHADMAN

THANK YOU , I APPRECIATE THE POST. WHAT'S WAR GOOD FOR, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.
THE REAL WAR SHOULD BE AT OUR SOUTHERN BORDERS.
OBAMA IS A WEAK LINK AND THE COUNTRY IS STILL UNDER THE RULE OF THE CORPORATE ELITE.
I HAVE NO RESPECT FOR HIM AND THE SO CALLED CHANGE THAT HE SAID WAS COMING.
HE TALKS A GOOD GAME, BUT HE'S FAILED ANYONE THAT WANTED THE END TO THE WARS.
OF COURSE HE'S A TYPICAL POLITICIAN,AND WILL SAY ANYTHING.
HE BROUGHT IN THE CROOKS THAT WHERE THEIR BEFORE BUSH, AND NOW IT'S THERE TURN TO RAPE AND PILLAGE THE TREASURY, YOU CAN'T SPEND YOUR WAY OUT OF THIS MESS !!
HE IS PLAYING HIS PART/ROLE IN THE NEW WORLD ORDER. FOUR YEARS OF SPEND TO YOU DROP AND THEN THE PEOPLE WILL WORK FOR LESS ,WORK HARDER AND OF COURSE LONGER AND YOU WILL BE ASKED TO SACRAFICE, WHILE THESE LEADERS THROW PARTIES,EAT FILET AND,LOBSTER AND THATS NOT GOOD ENOUGH, THEY ARE SERVING SPECIAL JAPANESE FILETS AT 100.00 A SERVING.
THE JOKE IS ON ALL THAT THINK THAT HOPE AND CHANGE IS COMING. IT'S A PRIVATE CLUB AND NO ONE AT THIS FORUM IS A MEMBER !!!
 

Sun Tzu

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Did you notice that in Messiah's budget deficit reduction plan he included war costs in Iraq through 2019....so whent we are out (supposedly) in a year or so he will be able to claim all that savings as "budget reductions" to offset all the spending.

This is worse than the fraud of create OR SAVE jobs.
 
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Chadman

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Yeah, that is somehow more reprehensible than hiding every bit of war spending done by the previous administration from the budgets they put forth every year?

Nice try. Transparency definitely trumps secrecy...unless you have something specific to hide...like astronomical payments to defense-related entities...
 

Chadman

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Not to mention, that critics of "the Messiah" are throwing out the entire listed amounts of the budget, inclusive of the war expenditures, when attacking his spending amounts? Funny, how the fuzzy math can really bite you in a clear way when really looking at things, eh?

Plenty to find fault with with the money being thrown around these days, but I find it refreshing that we are finally now dealing with the REAL cost of war, and not hiding it.
 

Sun Tzu

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Not to mention, that critics of "the Messiah" are throwing out the entire listed amounts of the budget, inclusive of the war expenditures, when attacking his spending amounts? Funny, how the fuzzy math can really bite you in a clear way when really looking at things, eh?

Plenty to find fault with with the money being thrown around these days, but I find it refreshing that we are finally now dealing with the REAL cost of war, and not hiding it.

Umm what stopped the Dems from disclosing it the last two years?
 
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Chadman

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Umm, it was a budget brought forth and presented by the President, right? Isn't the new budget coming from the Obama administration? Am I missing something? Perhaps I am, but both Dems and economists talked about not having the war items in the budget previously - that's nothing secretive or new. So, not sure what your point is.
 

Sun Tzu

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No - Congress has to pass and approve budgets- as the Dems have been reminding us daily this week in their support of earmarks. Not one dime would go to the War if Congress didnt approve it. The Pres can certainly submit a budget proposal and eventually sign or veto, but it has to go through Congress. That omnibus bill with 9,000earmarks certainly didnt come from Obama.
 

StevieD

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No - Congress has to pass and approve budgets- as the Dems have been reminding us daily this week in their support of earmarks. Not one dime would go to the War if Congress didnt approve it. The Pres can certainly submit a budget proposal and eventually sign or veto, but it has to go through Congress. That omnibus bill with 9,000earmarks certainly didnt come from Obama.

Congress voted to give the President the funds basically because they had to. Could you imagine a President going into "negotiations" without the threat of our military behind him. The fact that Bush rushed into war with Iraq cannot be blamed on the Dems or the Reps no matter what the Corporate Press says. That vote was to give Bush some leverage. Votes after that were to support the troops and not leave them sitting ducks.
 
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Skulnik

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Did you notice that in Messiah's budget deficit reduction plan he included war costs in Iraq through 2019....so whent we are out (supposedly) in a year or so he will be able to claim all that savings as "budget reductions" to offset all the spending.

This is worse than the fraud of create OR SAVE jobs.

:toast:
 

Chadman

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No - Congress has to pass and approve budgets- as the Dems have been reminding us daily this week in their support of earmarks. Not one dime would go to the War if Congress didnt approve it. The Pres can certainly submit a budget proposal and eventually sign or veto, but it has to go through Congress. That omnibus bill with 9,000earmarks certainly didnt come from Obama.

I understand that way of looking at it - but the point wasn't that it was passed, it was that the President and it's creators didn't want it included in the budget, which to me is nothing more than hiding it.

To me, the really distinctual difference is that now both Obama and the dems are together on showing it. We can agree to disagree on the reasoning - your view certainly is possible. I just find it refreshing that it no longer is hidden, and considering that had it been a part of things all along, the budgets and deficits would have been much higher. It's just as possible that they hid it for political gain than it is that Obama and the dems are possibly using it for the same thing, isn't it? If we're being objective, of course.

There's no doubt the omnibus bill didn't come from Obama, but the yearly budgets always originate from the President, as a matter of procedure. Unless I am completely missing that piece of history. Voting on something is much different than formulating and producing something, IMO.
 

Chadman

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Or, perhaps a more simple way to approach this is to ask if you think the cost of starting, engaging in, and maintaining a war should be a part of the government's budget? If not, fine, but why not? To hear most conservatives tell it, about the only thing the government SHOULD be doing is defense and engaging in war - if need be. And, the reasoning for this one specifically, was defending America against terrorism - or at least the first reason we were give was.
 
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Trampled Underfoot

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Or, perhaps a more simple way to approach this is to ask if you think the cost of starting, engaging in, and maintaining a war should be a part of the government's budget? If not, fine, but why not? To hear most conservatives tell it, about the only thing the government SHOULD be doing is defense and engaging in war - if need be. And, the reasoning for this one specifically, was defending America against terrorism - or at least the first reason we were give was.

Perhaps if we want to stop terrorism, we should first stop participating in it.
 
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