What does line movement really mean?

Bill

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I hear a lot about watching out for line movement but as I look it appears that there is not any real revelance between line movement and who covers.

I would love to know if there is any real daa that suggest or proves a correlation?

Thanks,
Bill
 

danmurphy jr

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Bill, A number of things cause a line to move. After the Oulaw line has been measured and the public gets it's crack at it, a book has only one objective and that is to balance his take as evenly as possible. A book who plays against the bettor will lose. Gary Austin a respected Las vegas bookmaker in the 80's almost brought the city down.
Off shore books adjust their lines toward other books, their own high rollers and known winners. Las Vegas operates similar.
Example: I bet $2000 on a game, you bet $500. They know you are a winner and don't know me at all or know me as a loser. Your $$ money will move the line. Also, if they can not balance, they have to have a place to back them up. there is an accounting system used or you won't get paid on time if at all.
It is similar in fashion, ie: If Blue Cross provides you with a one million dollars worth of health insurance at $600 per month, they have to have access to the $1m. If a book accepts $1M in bets and $700k win - $300k lose, he needs a reserve of $370k to pay his winners. This doesn't happen often. hope it helps
 

Profit Prophet

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Betting lines move ONLY as a result of money being played into them.But, money may also manipulate a line for later action; e.g., low limit books may be hit early and thus begin to move their lines. Certain players in Las Vegas such as unsophisticated numbers runners, will run to another sports book (or use their bookie) and catch the line before it moves elsewhere. This action develops momentum and causes a chain reaction, moving a given basketball line for example, up to a point and a half. Once the line has been thus manipulated, the ?wise guys? who set it in motion in the first place, come back and hit the other side heavy just before game time. Sacrificing their smaller, early action. The thing the line analyzer nust do, of course is be able to read these maneuvers correctly and get in on the right side. The sports books usually end up balancing their action, the ?wise guys? clean up, and all the little fish who thought they were getting the best of it end up being deep fried.
 

Bill

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I understand what makes the line move but am I correct in my understanding that teh team that gets the added points from a shift is less or more likely to cover. say the clippers open at +7 and the line mover to +9, does that indicate the people who set the line are probably right and the line moved due to uninformed bettors and thus the Clippers probability of covering is reduced or, does it mean smart money was placed on the Clippers by people who know and thus there is a higher probability of the Clippers covering.

There has always been a lot of talk about watching for line movement but grom my personal observations, I have not determined and advantage of the line move one way or the other.

Very frustrating.

Thanks and appreciate all insights. Information is money in the bank!

Bill
 

buddy

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Very frustrating.

LOL!

Billy,

Chinese physics is easier to grasp than understanding the hows and whys of line movement.

Welcome to the World Of Eleven To Ten.
 

Bill

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You got that right Buddy. With all the chatter about line movements you would think that there would be a standard that the move means "X" but that does not seem to be the case.

About a year ago I actually looked at basketball line movement for about three days and came to the conclusion that if I bet against the line movement I would hve won some 70%. I figured that the books have the most knowledge of where the line should be and everyone else is guess. Thus when the public jumps on line they are moving it away from the people who know best. Somehow this makes sense to me and especially in light of the fact that I cannot get anyone else to give me a better theory.

Now a little about Chinese physics.... kurby

Bill
 

buddy

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Imo, in some matchups, line movement may provide a clue to the probable side. The difficulty lies in knowing which matchup and what line movement to look for. For example, if the line moves in your favor and you cash the ticket, but your team only covered by a point...I wouldn't be so quick to pat myself on the back.

For the most part, the linesmaker will not allow himself to be beat by merely monitoring line movement. Handicapping is a little more complicated than just focusing on one related aspect of the matchup.
 

Nick Douglas

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Don't use a three week sample to make long term determinations. Just because betting against line movement would win you 70% of your wagers in one three week period doesn't mean it wouldn't lose you 70% of your wagers in the next three week period.

I am no expert on line movement. There are a few folks I've gotten to know over the years from this site that really have a strong read on it. Some really trust it as the basis for a majority of their plays, others find it to be folly for wannabe pros. There does seem to be a near consensus among true professional gamblers, however, that understanding line movement is essential to winning long term.

Having said that I am no expert, there are a few things that I have noticed:

-It takes time to understand how to read the differences between "public" and "smart" line movement. Sometimes the line moves because so much money is bet on one side that the book wants a balance, and sometimes the line moves on a much smaller amount of money bet because the book wants to keep future bettors away from a side they like. One tip that fletcher taught me was that on certain favorite line moves, the book is essentially giving away the fact that they are scared to death of public heavily backing a favorite that will win easily. I think Indianapolis on Thanksgiving day was a great example of this.

-Sometimes when a line doesn't move, it is telling you as much as if it were moving. One well respected Mad Jack's member once showed me a list of lines that didn't move a bit. When I checked the results over those several days of scores, I noticed that underdogs hit at a high percentage. He insisted that books were taking one sided action on favorites in those games (as generally happens), but they were more or less betting the underdog themselves by keeping the line static. Obviously a book will almost always go broke eventually if they allow one sided action like that on all games, so you can't just assume that this is the case just because a line doesn't move.

-Pay close attention to Pinnacle, CRIS and Olympic. They are arguably the top three books for taking large action from all comers. You have to spend time watching these bellweather books to understand how they move and what opinions they reveal as they move (or fail to move) lines. Pinnacle, especially, likes to take sides on games. They are very hard to beat because they tempt you with lower vigorish, but in the long run they attract enough losing bets to usually come out ahead if a gambler is playing at multiple outs. For example, they like to do things like offering Lakers -5 -112 (and their opponents +5 +102) while other books are on Lakers -5 1/2 or -6 at -110. These are tough reads because in some cases Pinnacle is just balancing their action to attract Laker bets, but in many cases they are revealing that they want large, "sharp", bettors to bet the Lakers with them because they feel that their opponent is the "right"side.

-Remember that every half point and every bit of vigorish matters. Far too many bettors simply shrug off line movements against them, especially when not on "key" numbers like 3, 4 and 7 in football. Over the long term, it becomes almost impossible to win if you consistently ignore line movements against you. Remember the search is always for value. Even top bettors struggle to top a 55% winning percentage over their lifetimes. When I place a bet on a play that has moved a half point against me, I am losing valuable percentage points off that 55%. Remember that the difference between 55% and 52% (where you are a consistent lose) is not much.

-I will get gruff from my old macroeconomics professor for this, but it is better to err on the side of caution in almost all examples. Opportunity Cost will get you killed in gambling. It is a fine line to walk, because if you pass on too many winners often your confidence will erode, but generally keeping your number of plays to a minimum is best. For instance, last night I lost 200 in Opportunity Cost by passing on the Wiz/Suns under at the last minute. But over time, I will keep my self from going broke by passing rather than playing questionable bets.

-The vast majority of offshore books move "on air". Very, very few books stand firm to their lines even if other books are getting hammered with one-sided action. Most books just deal vanilla odds that are in line with what the rest of the industry is doing. The assertation earlier in this thread that books only move because there is money coming in is simply wrong. All it takes is one day of looking at the Best Bettor screen to figure that out. They will still move if they get pounded on one side, but even then many books are unwilling to post an "opinionated" number for fear that they will get an avalanche of action after a "false" move.

-Remember that the top guys at Pinnacle and Olympic bet lots of money themselves through beards at lesser books. I'd guess that top guys at other books like CRIS do this as well. What this means is that occasionally you will see a bullshit line put out by one of these books early in order to get smaller books to copy them and put up a bad line. Then the beards for the top guys will bet massively on this bad number before quickly changing their number back to where it "should" be. In these cases, you have to act quick, but sometimes you can tail those plays before the value evaporates.
 
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Bill

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Nick and Buddy, I appreciate the input and, Buddy, I think you hit it squarely, Chinese physics is easier to grasp.

I have been lucky because I know I do not know much so I follow others who have survived time. I figure if a guy has been here 3-5 years and has a strong following he must be doing something right.

Occasionally a line, like last night with the Kings -16 jumps off the page as saying that the only reason a book offers 16 is to lure people in so I went heavy with the fav and they won by 36. I usually do not even post my picks unless I am really running hot because there are too many folks ready to blame you if they lose on your post. Really stupid!

Thanks to all.
Bill
 

giambi

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Now this is good stuff I really appreciate all of your thoughts on this I live in Las Vegas and of course have been betting for awhile and just as everyone else is trying to get a read on this stuff and this thread is extremely helpful..............It is true that chinese physics is easier.....but maybe one day it won't be I doubt it though
 
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