car opinions......

[dr. freeze]

g-hawg.....you have been brainwashed......free market economy depends on competition......quality workers will be taken care of by employers or they will go elsewhere........end of story......with today's means of communication, there is no need for unions

Employers are not going to fire employees for no reason. Think about it. Put yourself in the place of an employer. If you want your business to succeed, you will create incentives for quality work or you will lose your workers.

You have all the protection you need if you are of value. No union needs to "protect you". Unions instead protect the guy who does nothing. Someone who has no value, should be fired which would hopefully lead them to find a line of work in which they are productive. How many unproductive workers are truly happy with their job anyways?

Let the free market take care of itself. Unions eat up money which could go towards innovation resulting in improved quality, more jobs that PRODUCE something instead of nothing, and place unneccessary restraints on businesses which hurt flexibility.

Performance should be rewarded. If I were a worker and I was good, I would think that my wages should be indicative of my work. Unions take this away. They reward laziness and the guys who are at the top of the UNION. Not the guy who works his ass off and should be getting paid more for doing so.

Let the "Invisible Hand" do its work.

 

[dr. freeze]

you guys shoudl read Adam Smith......he is one of our forefathers responsible for this economic giant and one that is being dismantled little by little because of the fact that economic socialism is replacing the free market.......

 

[JSMOOTH]

This is the most ridiculous thing I've ever read!

This is the most ridiculous thing I've ever read!

g-hawg.....you have been brainwashed............quality workers will be taken care of by employers or they will go elsewhere........end of story You mean a suck-ass? A company whore?......with today's means of communication, there is no need for unions What does todays communication have to do with unionizing?


Employers are not going to fire employees for no reason. Bullsh*t. Let's say that you run into your boss some night, only that pretty woman he's with isn't his wife. Do you think he'll threaten you with your job. Maybe thats extreme, but I've seen people get fired for no reason and to think it doesn't happen is foolish. Think about it. Put yourself in the place of an employer. If you want your business to succeed, you will create incentives for quality work or you will lose your workers.Incentives such as what? More money? Vacation? Well they may give that to you but not as much as the union knows what they can afford to give you, which is probably much more than "good guys" have offered.

You have all the protection you need if you are of value. No union needs to "protect you".So, lets say that the CEO really loves the work I do for his company, and recognizes the $ I'm making him. So, instead of taking that vacation the I had planned with the family, he says he can't afford to lose my performance for 2 weeks. Unions instead protect the guy who does nothing. Unfortunately, you are correct here. Someone who has no value, should be fired which would hopefully lead them to find a line of work in which they are productive. How many unproductive workers are truly happy with their job anyways?

Let the free market take care of itself. Unions eat up money which could go towards innovation resulting in improved quality, more jobs that PRODUCE something instead of nothing, and place unneccessary restraints on businesses which hurt flexibility.Unions cost absolutley 0 dollars to a company. Unions are funded solely through the employees who organized them.

Performance should be rewarded. If I were a worker and I was good, I would think that my wages should be indicative of my work. Unions take this away. Yeah, you would think, but you alone cannot force mgt. to reward your work. And how exactly do unions "take that away?" They reward laziness and the guys who are at the top of the UNION. And mgt. doesn't reward all the over-paid shirt and ties who know jack shit about how to the job that their employees are doing! Not the guy who works his ass off and should be getting paid more for doing so. It still amazes how mgt. still tries to get things their way even though they know the workers are working under a contract that they agreed on.

Let the "Invisible Hand" do its work. [/B]

I don't enjoy this "argument" but you've struck a nerve with me on this one!

If you detest unions that bad, then I fully recommend opting out. And if you ever lose your license for something that obviously unfair......well then, you're on your own.

 

[JSMOOTH]

Just to name a few

Just to name a few

Since its founding in 1935, the UAW has consistently developed innovative partnerships with employers and negotiated industry-leading wages and benefits for its members. UAW members have benefited from a number of collective bargaining breakthroughs, including:

the first employer-paid health insurance plan for industrial workers


the first cost-of-living allowances


a pioneering role in product quality improvements


landmark job and income security provisions


comprehensive training and educational programs

The UAW has been a leader in the struggle to secure economic and social justice for all people. The UAW has been actively involved in every civil rights legislative battle since the 1950s, including the campaigns to pass the Civil Rights Act of 1964, the Voting Rights Act of 1965, the Fair Housing Act, the Civil Rights Restoration Act of 1988 and legislation to prohibit discrimination against women, the elderly and people with disabilities.


The UAW also has played a vital role in passing such landmark legislation as Medicare and Medicaid, the Occupational Safety and Health Act, the Employee Retirement Act and the Family and Medical Leave Act. In Washington and state capitols, the UAW is fighting for better schools for kids, secure health care and pensions for retirees, clean air and water, tougher workplace health and safety standards, stronger worker's compensation and unemployment insurance laws and fairer taxes.

The UAW's commitment to improve the lives of working men and women extends beyond our borders to encompass people around the globe. Through vigilant political involvement and coordination with world labor organizations, we continue to fight for enforcement of trade agreement provisions on human and worker rights, fair labor standards and a new approach to international trade -- one that raises the quality of life for working people worldwide.

UNAMERICAN?????????

BTW - I recommend a 4x4.

 

[dr. freeze]

socialism = unAmerican.......

today's communication will allow workers to know which employers treat workers badly which will allow workers to now work there and employers to think twice before they act unreasonably

if an employer wants to fire you for no reason, so be it.....it is his loss......i would think that if I owned a complany i could do what i wanted with it and hire who i wanted and fired who i wanted......i woudl be an idiot to fire people for "nothing"......you have seen people get fired for nothing you say but I doubt you know both sides of the story......

wages are determined by competition......

Unions cots a TON to the company by protecting the guy who does nothign.....this lowers productivity bigtime....hurts profits which would allow higher pay for better workers.....and if you say no it wouldn't, i say yes it would because higher profit margins will give companies more incentive to hire good people at higher wages.......the dude who does nothing hurts EVERYONE......and unions protect this guy

Management will be forced to reward work or someone else will if performance is rewarded


All these magic benefits that the union has so called given you would be included in your salary as cash were it not for them.....instead you pay a price for administering all these programs which is another unproductive job produced and in addition takes away your freedom to choose whatever you want to do with your own money......

The innovation I am talking about is technological not thinking of new ways to introduce communism to our country cloaked in social programs.

Unions produce unproductive jobs, reward mediocrity, take away freedoms of ownership, take away incentives for top level workers, tell you what to do with the money you earn by denoting it into programs, pay their own big boys top dollar and ever since their existence been open for corruption, and promote a classless system which has been a failure every place it has been tried.

The American Dream is one in which we can rise to levels of ecomomic prosperity through hard work, self reliance, and productivity. Every person in America should have a chance to pursue this. Unfortunately, unionization of America takes away from all 3 values and once you do reach the top, you are penalized and told what to do with your business. That, in my book, is unAmerican as it comes........

 

[dr. freeze]

by the way JSMOOTH just my thoughts and again don't take personal and i think that unions were put in place to correct some problems a long time ago where people should have been going to jail for abusing workers instead when communication was poor but i am a firm believer in free market and we have different ideas about what is best and i do really think that unions hurt the hard working 9-5 everyday man.......and a lot of people do and it is not absurd to think that way and there are some pretty valid points that we make......anyways i respect your opinion too and take care dude.......

 

[SixFive]

interesting union discussion

interesting union discussion

I can see points on both sides. I'm not in a union, so I don't have first hand experience. I don't see how I could EVER go on strike, though, in my line of work. It would only penalize those I am taking care of, and I couldn't have that. To be in a union, do u have to be prepared to strike? Isn't the ultimate bargaining tool?

As far as poor employees, those also abound in non-union situations. Good employees are rarely rewarded. Not too many jobs have merit raises anymore. With all the liberal "fairness" in our society, everybody gets the same 2-3% yearly raise.

Now, to the original question of what kind of car to buy, here's my opinion. Whatever u get, don't finance it. Car loans and car leases are really bad things, ESPECIALLY for college student AND young people that are just out of school. Save up a couple of grand first, then buy an inexpensive used car. Find something u like, then spend a few bucks and have somebody like Bluemound Freak thoroughly check it out for u. This will also give u a bargaining chip because they will always find a few things that need to be replaced, fixed, or tweaked.

Luck to u in Med School, and please don't be a prick when u start practicing. Always remember to be humble, thankful, and most importantly, an advocate for your patients. Learn the word WRITE-OFF very fast, and don't get upset when u have to do that. It's part of the job and goes with the turf. Also, when u have a patient in an acute care setting, LISTEN TO THE NURSES!! They are with your patient all the time, and they know what's going on. Respect them, compliment them, thank them, and they won't be calling u at 3:30 in the morning to ask if Mr. Smith can have some Milk of Magnesia.

 

[JSMOOTH]

dr. freeze

dr. freeze

About 10 years ago, I had the pleasure of working for a (fortune 500) company that was (at the time), non union. About 200 of us were getting hired at the same time. We sat through an orientation session where the "big shot" sat and told us that this job was the second best gig in town. He then proceeded to pump his chest and rave about all the awards and recognition that their excellent work has gotten for them. (made me sick)

Later, mgt. led me and 3 other guys to the job that I was to be doing. He pointed his finger at one current employee and said..."Todd, get your things...you're fired." Now, maybe he deserved to be fired, but he DID NOT deserve to be treated that way in front of his peers.

Long story short...we signed cards to the tune of 99% in favor of and about a year later, we had a contract.

We were given an immediate 3.50 per hour raise and 3% every year for 3 years. (and a 1500.00 signing bonus)

Our benefits plan went from paying up to 50.00 per month to free.

We won an extra weeks, paid vacation.

Overtime is now paid after 8 hrs. instead of after 40.

You can now choose the doctor and medical facility of your choice and not one the company says that you have to go to.

We received actual "job descriptions" so mgt. couldn't make you do the work of someone else or do more work for unnecessary reasons.

These above points are petty as to the best thing we received by organizing...and that is the protection of the UAW from corporate greed.

I have since moved on to one of the largest and richest companies in the world and now work for the most powerful union in the state (maybe the country), and I thank them everyday for what they have done.

To listen to the "old-timers", who were there at the beginning of this company, is sickening. I thought I had it bad at the other place...I couldn't imagine being there at the beginning.

Proud member
UAW Local 1112

 

[dr. freeze]

thanks for the remarks and i agree with you about nurses....hopefully i get some good ones that are competent......

anyone who is interested about this stuff shoudl read Wealth of Nations by Adam Smith and for a contrarian view read Karl Marx.....Marx pretty much says what the union people say......

as far as working conditions go......Americans are a people who came across the sea hundreds of years ago......I do not think that the pilgrims worked 9-5 jobs, had free health insurance, early retirement, paid overtime, and the like. Those are not inherent rights. Inherent rights transcend time. Those are privilidges and one should be thankful for any of them. Adopting an attitude where one thinks they deserve those just for being here loses sight of a grateful attitude and adopts a selfish one.

We are a people who worked our asses off for everything we got and made a great nation because of it. You can generally read anything from these past days where one was rewarded by a good days work, self-sufficiency, and a loving family leading to much more joyful lives than some of the leeches that live off everyone else today.

We are a nation of adventurers, explorers, fighters, and innovators coming from all different backgrounds to produce the greatest country to ever exist capable of at least attempting to support the world's welfare. That is American. Turning our own into bottom feeders is not American. Nearly every person except for those severely handicapped is programmed to lead a much more happy life by taking pride in their work. And the act of taking pride in one's work should be at utmost concern in any kind of reward system. That will facilitate economic prosperity, happy families, and unlimited potential because as we all know economics, unlike gambling.......lol.....is not a zero sum game.

 

[dr. freeze]

JSMOOTH......

I would think that anyone who did that to the co-worker or whatever should be canned if a business cared about its success.....if I was a CEO and heard that management was doign that to my employees his ass would be out the door so fast that he woudln't know what hit him.......the root of the problem there lies in bad management and that should be taken care of by upper level management.....accountability eventually comes to the CEO and if the buck does not stop there, then ENRON sh*t happens........

 

[JSMOOTH]

example

example

Not long ago, an employee near me wasn't at work. My supervisor came to me and told me to go do his job. When I asked why, he said "because I know that you're a fast learner."
I told him that I really didn't want to do it, but he kept pushing, so I gave in.

I walked to the job and he simply left me there. (I've never done this job before). Now, automobile assembly lines are very unforgiving. They are not prejudice and it doesn't stop moving unless you make it stop, and you do everything you can not to stop it. Needless to say, I stopped the line. When he came running over to see why I had the line down, I told him that I was going back to MY job. (I didn't ask, I told him.) On my walk back to my job, he said that I had to do the job that he sent me to. (WRONG) I kept walking...he kept talking...As I was almost back to my job, he says...
"How's about I take .50 per hour off your wage for today"....
I laughed and said..."How's about you get my committeeman down here!"

End of Story.

 

[JSMOOTH]

JSMOOTH......

.......the root of the problem there lies in bad management and that should be taken care of by upper level management.....accountability eventually comes to the CEO and if the buck does not stop there, then ENRON sh*t happens........

Unfortunately, mgt. and upper mgt. can be very corrupt also. Just another thing for the union to babysit.

I do not go to work because I enjoy it. I don't mind it, but I'm not in love with it. My job (and my union ) keeps myself and my family far from the poverty level. I am lucky enough to be paid more than alot of my friends who have 4 year degrees, put on a suit and tie everyday, and work 50-70 hours per week.

It cracks me up as to how often I hear a supervisor or some other mgt. employee say that they wish they could be in the union.

I'm not going to continue in this thread, as it's obvious where we both stand. I do, however, think that it is very sad that you claim unions are "unamerican". For someone who is smart enough to be in medical school, you are very uneducated about the benefits and purposes of a union and somewhat blind to the fact of Corporate Greed.

Be American
Buy Americam

 

[kevinmac_99]

FREEZE.......

FREEZE.......

You live in TEXAS man.........In TEXAS they can fire you for no reason......I work for IBM and believe me I've seen many men and women let go JUST BECAUSE......read up on TX employment man...later

KMAC

 

[Juji-gatame]

Just a little car input. Sorry I posted so late. You are probably already driving that beautiful Camry by now. If you are buying new, I have three tips
1. Haggle from invoice price up, not sticker down. All vehicles have different markups.
2. Try not to have a trade in, Thats where dealerships always win.
3. Don't let dealership find you the financing, They will get you approved at 9% and charge you 10.5 and keep the difference.

Toyotas are IMO the way to go. I owned 2 prior to owning my third a Tundra and they last forever and hold their value. I used to sell them by the way. For a while they were the only brand to offer 3/36k bumper to bumper and 5/60k powertrain warranty. They know no-one will ever hit em up. Good luck

 

[dr. freeze]

well those corporations that have corrupt upper level management should not have to have a union to babysit them......they should have the law to oversee them.......and herein lies another problem.......root of the problem actually in a lot of cases is bad law being interpreted and incompetent juries......

if you have bad management -- fire them by upper level management

if that is bad fire them

if that doesn't work, CEO is gonna run his company into ruins....that should be enough incentive to get things straight.....or if corrupt, these people shoudl be jailed.......

since that last part never works because a glaring example will soon be set with Enron -- my guess is that money buys them out of their troubles -- which is a direct result of bad law.....and justice not enforced which will be the root of the problem again.....


just watch i bet almost all the crooks at Enron and Arthur Anderson will escape jail.......

also I think corporate greed is neutralized by productive workers....you should not have to worry about it if you are an asset to the company......if you are not an asset, you should be let go anyway as i already said......unions have labelled this as "job whoring" or whatever but they try to take that FREEDOM from the workers and take it on themselves......if I am interested in profit margins.....you can better believe that I will reward productivity to a far greater degree than any union would ever get for a fixed rate for all employees.....plus i think as a worker i would rather have this boundless pay scale than a minute pay raise that barely competes with inflation

So too mcuh "corporate greed" as you refer should end up with one if not all of the following consequences --
1. Loss of all good workers to other companies who will treat you right
2. If corrupt, Jailtime

It was a free country but we are losing that......freedom is American don't you think?

KMac -- i know i live in Texas and I know people get fired just because and that is the freedom of an employer.......last i checked when i get hired for a job is not now my duty to tell employer how to run his business.....is it?

if quality people are chucked for no reason that is employers loss.....and a reason why contracts can be signed with employers before you take on job to ensure that will not happen.......

 

[nighthorse]

First on the cars....I agree that Toyota and Honda are great for dependability. If you want to go American, I can tell you that the GM 3.8 litre, 6 cylinder motor is VERY dependable. My brother is a GM mechanic and he says he rarely sees that particular motor in the shop for any kind of early wear.

I was in the sheet metal workers union for a couple of years. It's more of a mixed bag than either one of you have pointed out. I have been told by others to slow down because I look like a scab. "If you do too much, they'll expect it all the time." If working outside, we'd roll up our tools at the first sign of rain. Whenever I hear the word, "STRUGGLE" I cringe.

On the other hand, one day the wind chill was -40. Our crew foreman told the boss we couldn't move our hands well enough to do our job. The boss said "Get that wall sheeted!" Our foreman told him to get his Carhaart's on, come down here and sheet it with us. On a non-union job, that would have got us all fired. Instead, we stopped off at the bar at 10:00am and still had our jobs the next day.

Unions have done great things in the past. These days, some unions suck and others are still necessary.

The Ideal World:

Unions should have to compete. They offer a service...skilled workers. Their price may be higher, but the employer would know that you get quality workers, low turnover. A dependable workforce with high morale. The employer could choose to go non-union and pay lower wages. But the employer would have to do the hiring. He would have higher turnover, he would never know what he was getting until the guy actually strapped on a tool belt. The lower wage workers would likely result in lower productivity.

The worker would have a choice also. He could join the union and live under the union rules while enjoying union benefits, or he could contract himself out to the highest bidder.

Mandatory unionism creates a monopoly for labor. Monopolies are the most inefficient ways of producing and distributing goods and services.

If Unions are still necessary(and in some trades, in some areas, I believe they still are), they will survive and thrive under the rules of competition and free market capitalism.

By the way, we can thank the Japanese for the higher quality vehicles made in America today. Management and labor had to respond to us getting our butts kicked. Our cars 20 to 30 years ago were pieces of trash on the whole. Another example of how more choices and open markets help everyone.

 

[ryson]

I agree with the good Doctor, isn't that the beauty of capitalism? If you are an owner and your employees are not cutting the muster, then they affect the bottom line, what do you do, ya fire their lazy a**. Or let me ask this, if all of the union dues that are paid per person were put into a profit sharing plan and the company was profitable and you rec'd that fat check you would be saying that is a better way (granted I am speculating and this is just IMHO). It all boils down to the almighty dollar.

 

[dawgball]

The Union discussion...

The Union discussion...

This is probably the inner-lying argument that stands between my father and I more than any other. To state first (which will be evident in my opinion), I am part of the management group.

nighthorse has stated the real world situation better than anyone here.

JSMOOTH--you were going really well until your last couple of posts. I'm not sure if you just tired of the subject, but your last couple of posts sound like every other joe-schmoe that I saw littered throughout GM and FORD plants in the Midwest. People that didn't care about their performance were not the exception; they were the rule. I worked for a Tier-1 supplier to many assembly plants and saw nothing but wasted money on most of the American-style managed plants. There are very skilled workers in these plants, but if anyone does an excellent job and gives extra effort, they are immediately labeled a "suck-up". It couldn't be that they actually cared to give back to the company what they are getting paid for.

Now this gets to my next point that Freeze seems to miss. American management in the car industry (this is the main industry I have experience with) sucks! Now it has just become a finger pointing game that needs to be ended if the American companies are ever going to compete with the foreigners. I drive a Nissan-based car merely because they are BETTER cars. No doubt!

Someone mentioned earlier to ask Union workers and non-Union workers who was happier. I can say that I have never heard a Toyota employee complain about their job overall. No unions, high wages, and GREAT benefits. Now everyone is going to compalin about their jobs when they go through ruts, but in general the level of hapiness in those plants was enormously higher than in the American plants.

The best idea on this thread is to make Unions compete for jobs. Then management gets to choose how their company is run,a nd the Union will then give two shakes about their performance because they will want to win more jobs.

All and all, there are major faults on both sides of the fence. Until the two sides can come together and find REAL solutions, there will never be any ground made up.

This is one of the main reasons why I left the industry. I am now struggling every day to keep my own business afloat. But I have vowed to myself and my partners that when our company does get bigger that our employees will be very satisfied with how they are treated. If we have problems within the company, then we will sit down immediately and work them out by listening to the complaints and seeing where we can go from there.

I wish the best to everyone. Freeze, you sound like a very intelligent guy (you must be to be advancing through Med school), but your opinions may bend a little when you start getting real world experience. I don't think your opinions will change, but they may skew slightly. I felt just like you do a couple of years ago,a nd it was only strengthened by what I saw in those plants. But pointing fingers never gets things fixed, it only increases the distance between the two opposing problems.

JSMOOTH keep pumping away for us. Maybe someday the way we as a country view our own automobiles will change. You and your co-workers have the power to change that. And I would also like to thank you for keeping this country going.

GLTA!

 

[g-hawg]

I will never change my mind about the positive effects that our labor unions have had on this country. Like I said before they are not perfect but they are the best thing that the working man or woman has going for them. We all are entitled to think what we want and I would not want it any other way. Think what you want but I'm proud to be an AMERICAN union worker.

 

[SMOKE JENSEN]

I own a used car dealership. We offer on lot financing. I do all the buying for my lot. It is very important for me to find good vehicles that will make it thru the term of the contract. The best i find are Toyota's & Honda's. Only downfall is if you have trouble. They are more costly to repair than american cars. But overall i know they are more reliable.