Extremely important!!!

[AverageJoe]

Guys I need to get this off my chest. I hear guys speaking of Tim Mcveigh should fry and other crap like this. Lets look at the great USA from different angles, not the BS angles most look at it from.1)Tim Mcveigh was a normal guy who was in the army, then started having a hatred for his Gov't and then bombed Oklahoma. Doesnt anyone care why he did this,Im Canadian so I am not biased to either side of the gov't. Ruby Ridge alone would make me embarrased to be an American,then throw Waco into the fire. I dont like what the guy did at all but the fact is is that the FBI and other areas of the gov't have major power trips going on and dont ever have to face the same laws other Americans do. The agents that killed all the weirdos in Waco should be rotting in jail but they arent. I dont agree with alot of what Militias stand for but I can understand many of their points. The US gov't steps on peoples rights on an hourly basis Fact. 2)Why does the USA have so many of their children with guns killing each other.The average American family is not like it was 15-25 years ago...parents do not have the time or commitment to make sure their kids grow up to be good people. American media is disgusting (yet entertaining).As an adult I can handle it, but young kids look at tv and movies differently. Rolling others kids for their Nike shoes,why? lets ask Michael Jordan and Mr Knight of Nike. Kids bringing guns to school and shooting other kids because the bullies are never disciplined

AMERICANS NEED TO WAKE UP BEFORE IT IS TOO LATE...TAKE CARE OF YOUR KIDS...CLEAN UP THE CRAP ON TV,ASK TED TURNER TO WATCH HOW CNN GLORIFIES KILLINGS AND HOW THIS AFFECTS KIDS. DEMAND THAT YOUR RIGHTS AS AMERICANS IS NOT VIOLATED BY YOUR GOV'T. DONT TURN THE OTHER CHEEK BECAUSE IT IS NOT HAPPENING TO YOUR IMMEDIATE FAMILY. RENT THE MOVIE TRAFFIC, IF IT DOESNT MAKE YOU SMARTEN UP GO FIND A DOCTOR TO GIVE YOU SOME HELP. I USED TO LOVE THE STATES BUT IT IS SLOWLY BECOMING ONE OF THE WORST COUNTRIES IN THE WORLD OVERALL. OBVIOUSLY THERE ARE SOME FANTASTIC AREAS BUT LOTS ARE IN TROUBLE. YOUR KIDS NEED HELP. AND UNFORTUNATELY AND I STILL DONT KNOW WHY CANADA LIKES TO EMULATE THE USA, PLEASE CLEAN UP YOUR COUNTRY I WANT TO LOVE THE USA AGAIN BEFORE I DIE. MADJACK DID YOU FIND OUT A WAY TO PLAY THAT BEAR KICKING THE GUY IN THE NUTS VIDEO I EMAILED YOU...AND PLEASE DONT DELETE OR EDIT THIS JACK THESE ARE TRUE ISSUES AMERICANS NEED TO FACE BUT DONT LIKE TO, AND I DIDNT EVEN GET TO THE DRUG PROBLEMS, GO RENTR 'TRAFFIC FOR THAT ONE. THANKS JACK AND GO ORIOLES. I HOPE ALL REPLIES ARE GIVEN WITH A BIT OF THOUGHT.

 

[Snake Plissken]

"Tim Mcveigh was a normal guy who was in the army, then started having a hatred for his Gov't and then bombed Oklahoma. Doesnt anyone care why he did this"


What the Hell does it Matter why he did it?
He Killed Innoccent People & Children.
That MF should Die slow and painful.

 

[fletcher]

this time i agree that death is the right choice,and not many times would i say that because of mistakes that can and are made,but in this case its clear cut. he has no place on earth and that is sad to say.

 

[blained]

Joe,

I'm with snake and fletcher about McVeigh needing to die for the bombing in oklahoma city. I think it's also a mistake to compare him to the problems we see everyday in the US. He killed 168 people including women and children because of mistakes the US Goverment had made. He has shown no remorse and called the children's death collateral damage to his cause. There is alot of people opposed to the death penalty but nobody has deserved his fate more than Tim Mcveigh.

 

[alienxtrm]

So if you kill innocent people you deserve to die. Does the innocent people thats killed have to be Americans to deserve the death penalty. I can count you dozens of examples where innocent people were killed and the murderers were congragulated as heros. I guess when you are born and raised w/ the idea of being from the strongest nation inherits you some rights. One of them is that you dont have to seriously question a lot of things. Actually your goverment prefers that from their good citizens.
It would be a different point of view if you were waking up (in a different country) with voice of sirens and have to run to shelters with your family.

 

[KotysDad]

No offense to any one person in particular, but if anyone is unhappy with the way America is run, then go live somewhere else. I really dont think the border gates are locked from the outside. If that bird-brain McVeigh would have taken this advice, 168 more people would be alive right now.

If you vote, then either accept the government that is in place, or leave. If you didnt vote, then you have no right to complain.

 

[JT]

Wow. If the people pre 1776 were unhappy then they shoulda just left and not complain. This country would never have happened with an attitude like that. The luv it or leave crap. This is a democracy (or is supposed to be) and a major part of a democracy is the discussions pro and con regarding the powers that be. Just because the election is over means it is time to shut up. Plus in a democracy if you vote or not you do have the right to complain. If you pay taxes you damn well have that right.
Of course I have to say it would have been nice to see Timmy leave but unfortunately he didn't.
In regards to Average Joe, I think you are right that something seems wrong here. I don't suppose Children are showing up in schools in Canada blasting are they? I think there is a general lack of interest in cause and effect. It does trouble me. This doesn't mean I don't think Mr McVeigh doesn't deserve to be harshly punished. Enough rambling from me now. Good day.

 

[AverageJoe]

Hey guys I brought this topic up because I want the good old USA back. Maybe it was never the good ole USA...maybe because of CNN and other major media outlets we now see what goes on in the USA and other countries. I didnt start this topic to bash the USA or cheer for what Mcveigh did( and I think you guys saw this...thanks). I love to get into discussions like this because I believe nothing but good can come of it. I think we can all agree the US needs help and needs to clean up the country, nuclear weapons help protect the land and its people but it doesnt make kids or adults good caring people. KOTYSDAD I know from most of your posts that you are a good guy, its not that easy to just move legally to another country...it takes years and even then you have almost no chance. Getting into the US and Canada is getting easier evry year for immigrants, the problem is is that our gov'ts arent screening as thorough as they should...I dont know if it is laziness or just bad policies but it needs to be changed. I would love to see exact numbers for how many drug pushers are recent(10 yrs or less) immigrants. I was a person who always thought I wanted to live in the US until the last few years. Disgruntled workers blowing up restaurants...shooting their co-workers etc. When I was younger I believed totally in the death penalty...but just ask Hurricane Carter among hundred of men that have been killed and are scheduled to be killed what they think. I dont like the idea of killing innocent people. Mcveigh should be executed, but why not try and learn why he did it and how we can stop this from happening again. Ted Kazinski was once a brilliant genius and we all know what happened to him.ALIEN you made an amazing point. I would shudder at the number of innocent people that American soldiers and other countries have killed..great point.SNAKE you are probably a nice guy but it was obvious you typed your post when your adreneline was pumping...I would be lying if I said I have never done that also. If a once good kid doesnt do as he is told do you just punish him or do you ask him why he did it and try and help him not do it again? Now this one might upset a few people or maybe not. I believe a parent should be able to spank a child but within reason. What is reason...common sense. I would like to know how you guys/girls feel about that. Maybe its just me but it seems like ever since they stopped allowing parents to decide on what discipline they could use on thier kids that kids are getting worse and worse.Any opinions? I didnt even get into Guns in the US,holy crap what is that all about. When I was a kid I didnt even carry a nail file and sure as hell didnt know where to get a gun or use it. We could talk about this forever. How do you stop this problem in the US. Its doesnt happen in Canada or the Bahamas. In Canada you get a nice jail term for anything related to a gun. The US might be smart to copy Canada on more than just their health care system. Now here is a topic I hate to talk about but its a biggy in the States. Racists of all colours and sizes. I am an Italian/Canadian so I have a preety good tan. What colour does this make me in racial eyes...am I a black man, a white man what am I?. I was brought up in a slightly racist family Im sad to admit. Do I have a racist bone in my body..yes. Why? Heres my answer to myself. Some of the nicest people I have ever met in my life were black or asian. On the other hand I have met some black and asian folk I hoped I would never see again as long as I lived. So why do I sya I am racist. When I look in a newspaper or on tv I see lots of blacks men mostly committing crimes...and I have heard on tv the line 'if you see 3 black men crossing the strret late at night do you clutch your wallet a little harder then you would if it was 3 white men. And I answered yes I would and I have. Its not because I dont like people who happen to have darker skin then mine..its because the media speaks of that scenerio more often then reversing it,I dont think I have ever heard what if it was a black man with the wallet and it was 3 white guys or spaniards or asian. Thats racist what the media does and its not fair to any race or colour. There are good/bad people of every colour and nationality Just a few thoughts I had on my mind guys,hope there will be more discussion between us all. My fingers are getting sore, when I recooperate Im sure I will have more to say. Sorry if I am boring anyone.

 

[blained]

There is no doubt this country needs to start working on our problems and put the rest of the world on hold. We see things on tv like shootings at schools or workplaces and it has become commonplace. Is there anything that surprises us anymore, it's unbelievable how bad things have gotten. The goverment seems to do little to change anything that really affects the lives of most americans. I don't know that studying anyone can help you predict what happens when someone is going to commit a violent crime.

We just had something happen here in phoenix a couple of weeks ago that is a example of that. A man here in Phoenix shot and killed his wife along with their two kids. He then proceded to burn his house down around them and dissappeared, they still haven't found him yet. The police still haven't a clue why he did this, there was no past abuse or signs of trouble. There is no reason for what some people do to other people.

I'm not sure if there is a solution to all the problems we have here in the US but something must be done. It must start with educating the children of this country to respect there life and the lives of others.

 

[Webmaster]

This whole thread is very close to being deleted.

I think you know what I am talking about, Joe. You already had one edited out completely.

If it gets deleted, you know why and I don't want to see it started again.

WM

 

[yyz]

C'mon Web.....this is tame, and stirs the intellect a wee bit.

Censoring his stuff, more or less, proves some of his point.

Now....on to Joe:

This country is less than 250 years old. In its infancy, if you will. People in the Middle East have been killing each other for thousands of years. So long, that they can't even remember why it started! Oh, yeah....over choice of what ficticious being to worship, and a 20 mile piece of land. Let's take the geography class over to Europe for a spin. No hatered over here, I guess?

Take care of our kids because they see killings on tv? Why does the US have so many children killing each other with guns?

While our kids are seeing this crap on the tube, 11 year olds in other parts of the world are being trained by their "sects" and "factions" on how to use automatic weapons.

Yeah, there are some nuts running loose over here who take daddy's pistol to school to solve their problems, and that's not good. But, over all, I would still stack this "going to shit" country up amoungst you lesser countries.

Certain kids in the US do these things because there is a problem deep inside them......To kids in some of these other places on this wonderful planet, this is their life.

And that, my friend is sadder than anything you have mentioned.

 

[alienxtrm]

I thought this is why we had a general discussion area. Agree w/ yyz that this topic could be a bit stimulting intellect. And again I don't know average joe if he has a history w/ the topic.
I first came to this site for some gambling advice. Now its like a family. Since the start of the football season I have shared and gathered so much info. Once again thanks for all the time and effort.
I am suprised that this thred will be deleted. Why?

 

[Natural Selection]

Oh Joe! What hast thou wrought?

A thought provoking thread.

The times we live in are challenging. More a function of overpopulation and limited resources than of nationalities. What is needed is strong leadership and an educated, informed constituency.

The issues we will be dealing with now and in the generations to come will be some of the most challenging and difficult ever encountered. We've crossed isolationist national boundaries and are merging toward a global unification.

Humanity as a whole must become more educated and humble. I don't think Mother Nature is very happy with us (that's a story for another thread... lol). We must learn our lessons from the past and develop a more sustainable future. Many a philosopher has debated what we as a species are capable of... I think I'll go the library and bone up

By the way... what about them Mariners!!!

 

[fletcher]

me myself i love my country there are things that could be better but a great % of other countries are worse off then we are.
as for people anyone that knows me will stand by this,i don't care where you come from if you cut your are you will bleed red and i will treat you with respect and always offer help as a friend,but to alot of people not saying any of these post that look on the us as evil or hate all then they can go to hell,you don't know me as a person so don't group judge me,like i say i would help any person that i could within my means,but don't lable me as an hateful american.
and if you are unhappy i agree leave and go to your place of birth or where ever will make you happy. its just as bad ifnot worse to live here from anther country and bitch and talk bad about it as a theif or murder to me,why are some people even here? the us can live quite well as a self contained country without the help of others. could just shut the gates and trade within ourself,andnot send aid and buy things from others without the us some of you other countries would be much worse off then you are,and this isnot ment to be mean its a fact

 

[SixFive]

interesting topic! Here's what I think about a few of your points, AverageJoe. As for Tim McVeigh, if there was anybody deserving of the death penalty, he is. He doesn't even have any remorse.

Whatever happened to the nuclear family? Seems now instead of the order being 1)Meet a girl 2)Fall in love 3)Get married 4)Have kids. Seems to be that the order now is 1)Meet a girl/screw a girl 2)Knock her up 3)Raise children in single parent households. A pregnant unmarried woman used to be sent to another town 40-50 years ago (in disgrace most times) to have the baby and give it up for adoption. Nowadays, it is presumed just fine to have a baby out of wedlock and to purposefully get pregnant. Those good old family values have sure taken a hit. Heck, now ever gay couples can ADOPT kids. How very, very sad that is.

Who does the majority of the child rearing in the USA? Is it the parents, or day care centers? It is not a priority for most Americans to raise their own kids. The argument is that, "I have to work so I can pay our bills!" My thought is if u wouldn't have gone out and bought all those new tvs, furniture, new cars, Sea doos, 4 wheelers, etc, u wouldn't have those bills. More is NOT better.

I might get blasted by this, but I sure would like to see school prayer reintroduced. This is another issue where the minority rules the majority. When I was in school, we also said the Pledge of Allegiance every day. Is this still even done anymore? Do most kids realize the price their ancestors paid for our taken for granted freedoms? Do kids even know the signifigance of Dec. 7th, 1941 or what happened in 1776?

This is the greatest country on the face of the Earth. I love my country! I love being patriotic, and not just on the Fourth of July, but EVERYDAY! I love talking to folks in their 70s on up who remember and were a part of WWII & the Great Depression. These folks aren't going to be around that much longer, and they have a true living sense of what it means to be an American that I have and try to instill in my children.

I lead a conservative life, go to Church, & make God a part of my and my family's daily life. My kids are not in day care, and although that has meant personal sacrifices, I think it is important. I teach my children what the Pledge means and what that glorious flag stands for. I'm sure not saying that I'm perfect and I don't have any problems (heck, I even make a few wagers from time to time

). I do think that the moral degrade and changing value systems in our country have led to many of our problems.

------------------
It's far better to be LUCKY than good.

 

[ironlock]

I didnt read all of this thread, cause I didnt want to get to angry before I wrote.

Remember this guys. Its called WAR when we kill inocent people from other nations. Its called TERRORISM when it happens WITHIN a nation.

I ask you this. If this world somehow came under a WORLD GOVERNMENT. And those who stood in opposition and took measures, combat measures to regain independance. Would they be called TERROSISTS or REVOLUTIoNARIES. We all know they would be called TERRORISTS.

I will tell you this. In my mind, and in the minds of millions of others in this country, OUR GOVERNMENT HAS BEGUN AN INFRINGEMENT ON OUR RIGHTS THE LIKES OF WHICH HAS NEVER BEEN SEEN BEFORE. Whether you think it has that right or not. The fact remains that millions of CITIZENS, REJECT MUCH OF THE GOVERNMENTS BEHAVIOR. Partically evident in RUBY RIDGE, WACO, and various legislative attempts to register our firearms. I can hate MCVEIGH and still believe he was right in his ANGER. His method was WRONG. THE BOMBING AND KILLING WAS WRONG. BUT HE WAS RIGHT ABOUT OUR GOVERNMENT.

THe more people continue to allow our federal government to infringe on our rights, the more the ANTI-GOVERNMENT SENTIMENT GROWS.

Read your constitution, then write your senators and congressmen. Let us have our nation back, and this kind of crap will end.

IRON>

 

[bear]

Joe,
Its not as bad here as you would believe from sensational media. In fact I have not seen NY better in a quarter century. Crime/violent is Way down and will probably get even better across our great Country with the proliferation of cell phones and Video cameras.
High standards for ethics and morality have obviously deteriorated here and elsewhere and have led to serious social problems. A majority of our religious and private schools have closed or consolidated for economic reasons and these were places where children were held to a higher standard. Public schools are hostage to the courts and cannot really create a set of enforceable HIGH standards for acceptable behavior anymore. This one area really needs work!
Men have a greater tendancy to abandon their families today than ever before and although my wife and I raised our children in a Beaver Cleaver type household we were not the norm.(It works real well for the kids, by the way). My belief is that the greatest gift I ever gave them was easily their family life and a religious model. Men REALLY have to stand up and HELP raise their children, much like they did 50 years ago.i'm not saying all was great then but overall it was better than today.
Now,......here is a major league problem in this country, and its seemingly invisible to many and it destroys families. We are polarizing and losing our beloved middle class. Stock options and corporate greed have a lot to do with it and it gets tougher for the have nots every damn day! Factories are gone and people working for slave wages all over the world, produce our goods.(thats good for quarterly profits and for huge option packages that turn to $$$$ for the fat cats. Layoffs help too and so do 60 hour workweeks.Where I live youd need to work 120 hours and pay no taxes at $10 per hour to rent a 2 br flat. So what kind of underground economy do you think will thrive here ......the equalizer...DRUGS.
Little guys need to be able to support a family if they work 2 jobs! Jeeez , there are a lot of places where youd need 4 jobs. SO>>>when we redistribute wealth via tax cuts youd think we'd take better care of little man....WRONG...$$$$$$ to the wealthy.
Ah...I'm just ramblin...Mc Veigh should DIE for the reprehensible act and thats that
bear

 

[KotysDad]

Well you all make good points. JT, you are right about paying taxes and having certain rights. But I dont totally agree with everything said and that's fine, everyone has their own opinion. I happen to cherish my rights to live here and dont find too much to complain about (except a late touchdown given up under a prevent defense hahahaha). No matter who is in charge, there is gonna be some subset of people who dont like it. I guess that is what is great about this country.

And, AverageJoe, you are right about how hard it is to move to a different country legally. I was probably a little harsh with that comment. But I am pretty sure that I cant find a better place in this world to live, so I honestly dont complain about what the govt does. I can find more important things in my own life to worry about. I definitely dont need uncle Sam helping me out with stress.

You all have a great day/weekend.

 

[djv]

Someone metion 70. Well not yet but 59 and seen alot. My job had me many places in this world. Between military duty and my job. As of last count 19 countries. Im glad to get home each time I have to go. Hey there are a couple places I could stay. Canada/Australia New Zealand. Sorry my friends from England. Your beer is to warm. But home is home. Now we could clean up a little of this chit. But we can't put it back to when we were less then 200 mill. With the growth comes some of the problems. Now in the old west problems were solved rather fast. But we can't do it that way either. We are a nation of laws and we follow them or pay for not doing so. Ironlock Im surprised a little by what you said. You seem like a conservative. Well if so those far right wingers are the ones you better look out for. They get there way and you will have laws that make you loose sleep every night. The government will be in your bedroom and church every day. So some how we move on. I do believe we are the best. I hope we are. And things that people like Mc Veigh do. Well you kind of wish we could bring the old west back. He would have been taken care of. And we would not loose any sleep over it at all.

[This message has been edited by djv (edited 05-17-2001).]

 

[Neemer]

SixFive....

A VERY nice response. I hope there are more people like yourself living in our neck of the woods. Make it down to BG quite often to visit my good friend Chucks.