Haskell and Ebert: Farenheit 911 Part II

DOGS THAT BARK

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Didn't see movie and probably won't but appreciated the efforts in the reviews by all. You too Eddie.
Will say this,I think the movie will be a negative for Kerry--especially with all the terrorist orgs climbing on board. The election will be won by the independents vote and to assoiciate with Moore and his followers will push them the other way. Just my opinion.
P.S. Still believe Edwards is shoe-for VP slot.
 

Eddie Haskell

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Wayne:

Since you aren't going to see it, I think I will see it again in your honor. Just think of my second $8.00 for the ticket as my contribution, in your name, to Mr. Moore's effort.

Eddie
 

Eddie Haskell

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Wayne:

Film could be a negative for Kerry for reasons stated above. Politics in this country needs to be shaken up. You could help by voting against those two bought and sold senators of yours. Would love to see a Kerry McCain ticket but I know I'm dreaming.

As I previously indicated, I think the Bush money machine will win in November. For that reason, I would like to see Edwards wait until 08. Besides that, another 4 years of Bush may be what this country needs to put the democrats in power for 40 years starting in 08.

In other words, let him run the country completely into the ground so that the 15-20% swing voters can see what I've been saying around here for 3 + years. I'm sure God will tell him what to do.

Eddie
 

selkirk

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here is an article posted in the Globe and Mail last week. one small point Abu Nidal either killed himself or was killed by Iraq officials to please the west. have not seen this film, saw Roger and me, and the one "downsize this"? of his book tour.

thanks
selkirk


Stupid white filmmaker

By MARCUS GEE

Last weekend Michael Moore's Fahrenheit 9/11 earned $21.8-million (U.S.) in the United States, making it the highest-grossing documentary of all time after only two days in release. At the suburban multiplex in Toronto where I saw it, people were milling around in the aisles as the lights went down, trying to find an empty seat. When the credits rolled 116 minutes later, they broke into applause.

The reason is hard to understand. Mr. Moore's blockbuster is a dreary cartoon full of cheap shots, snide innuendo and wild conspiracy theories. So why were all those people clapping? It can't be because they were persuaded by Mr. Moore's argument. There simply isn't one. If this is a cinematic "op-ed piece," as he calls it, then it is the most incoherent ever published. It can't be because they felt educated or informed. The movie is a pastiche of half-truths and pseudo-facts that even the least-aware viewer would find suspect.

The only remaining answer is a depressing one. People love Fahrenheit 9/11 because it confirms their prejudices. Those prejudices are as follows. 1) The United States is a dangerous rogue nation ruled by a venal and callous elite. 2) The wars in Afghanistan and Iraq were waged solely to line the pockets of that elite. 3) President George W. Bush is a lazy, swaggering moron.

To cast Mr. Bush in the worst possible light, Mr. Moore uses a variety of sleazy tricks. He shows the President's aides being made up for television, a process that would make anyone look silly. He shows Mr. Bush making a joking boast about his golf swing after delivering a stern talk about terrorism. Aha, he mixes work with golf! He must be a lightweight. (Just like golfers Roosevelt, Eisenhower and Kennedy.)

Most famously, he shows the President sitting motionless for seven minutes in a grade-school classroom on 9/11 after an aide told him about the attacks on the World Trade Center. No one can know exactly why he sat there. Perhaps he was trying to appear calm at a time of national crisis. Perhaps he was thinking through his response. But Mr. Moore knows why: An idiot like Mr. Bush can't do anything "unless there is someone there to give him instructions."

In the Moore worldview, Mr. Bush isn't merely dumb. He's also corrupt. Because he, his family and his friends were beholden to Saudi investors, they ignored the threat from Saudi-born terrorists such as Osama bin Laden. Because of his shadowy links with the bin Laden family, he helped spirit dozens of family members out of the United States after 9/11. Because his oil industry cronies were interested in building a pipeline in Afghanistan, he at first ignored the threat from that country and later shifted the war on terrorism to Iraq -- a country, Mr. Moore asserts, that never posed the slightest threat.

In fact, the film portrays pre-war Iraq as a happy place full of smiling shoppers and children flying kites in the afternoon sun. No mention of the 300,000 murdered by Saddam Hussein for opposing his savage regime. Not a word about the torture chambers. Not a breath about how Baghdad supported Palestinian suicide bombers or harboured notorious terrorists such as Abu Nidal.

Mr. Moore's fire is so random that it's hard to know which lie to grapple with. But to mention just one: It was Richard Clarke, lionized in the film for opposing the Iraq war, who personally approved letting the bin Laden family members leave the United States after 9/11. According to the recent preliminary report of the 9/11 commission, the FBI decided that they had no connection to the attacks -- a conclusion that neatly punctures Mr. Moore's claim that the Bush administration put the nation in danger to protect its Saudi pals.

It would be easy to wave off such falsehoods as the harmless ravings of a clown in a baseball cap. But if you are behind the highest-grossing documentary of all time, you are no longer on the fringe. Fahrenheit 9/11 is Noam Chomsky for Dummies, a huge cultural coup for the anti-Americanism that has become the leading prejudice of our time.

Good art makes you think. Good propaganda makes you hate. Fahrenheit 9/11 is hate propaganda, playing at a theatre near you.
 

Eddie Haskell

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Selkirk:

Always like to know the political persuasion of authors of articles posted. Here is a little review of Marcus Gee which I found by pumping his name into Google. My computer skills are so poor that they only surpass Nosigars intellectual level otherwise I would post the link. Here is a review of Mr. Gee:

These are hard times for George Bush and the industrial-military complex, and therefore for Globe and Mail propagandist Marcus Gee. Few cubicle-dwelling hacks beat the war drum as zealously as Golly Gee, and we don't expect him to stop, what with the occupation of Iraq going so swimmingly. So readers can expect to be treated to more of Gee's Pentagon-loving, Dubya bum-kissing drivel. Here are the highlights of the past year or so, in case you missed them:

March 1, 2003: You're either with me or, ah, without me

The barbarians are at the gate. If we hope to repel them, the civilized nations of the world must stand together.

March 20, 2003: Not that Dick Cheney's Halliburton would be interested in oil.

Many believe Washington is trying to exploit Iraq's oil resources. "We have no ambition in Iraq," Mr. Bush said, "except to remove a threat and restore control of that country to its own people."

March 24, 2003: Imagine, a tyrant who flouts the laws of war. And then there's that Saddam guy.

By mistreating the captured Americans and displaying them on TV - a clear violation of the laws of war?

April 2, 2003: They made a fictional movie about it later using the same Pentagon script Gee stuck to here.

[U.S. Army private Jessica Lynch], the fresh-faced teenager, a supply clerk who joined the army to get an education and realize her ambition of becoming a teacher, became a symbol of American youth and enthusiasm after her capture in an ambush in the Iraqi desert near Nasiriyah. The recovery of captured, missing or isolated American men and women is "a matter of the highest national priority," a leading Pentagon official told a conference. That was not hyperbole.

April 10, 2003: Gee extends his empire of florid rubbish:

The sun dawned on a new world today ? the United States bestrides the world like no nation since the days of Rome?the world is rightly impressed. But by taking on and defeating Mr. Hussein, Washington has also taken on a heavy burden - the burden of empire.

October 31, 2003: Shurely not the same Iraqi guerrillas who were once on the CIA payroll?! -ed.

Iraq is not Vietnam ?The guerrillas fighting Americans in Iraq now are the remnants of Saddam Hussein's regime, with suspected support from foreign terrorists.

October 3, 2003: Gee? Promoted to head The Globe's editorial board.

The decision to invade Iraq was "no easy choice," Mr. Blair conceded. But whatever is found or not found in Iraq, it was the right one.

January 23: Not counting spelling, math, geography? but who's counting?

To be fair, he is good at quite a few things. The loathing that many feel for Mr. Bush is out of scale.

February 20: But he can find Iraq on one.

Stars and scars don't make a president. What counts is the strength and the sense to handle the security issues of the moment. On the big security issue of this moment - Iraq - our hero Mr. Kerry is all over the map.

March 19, 2004: The empire strikes back.

None of this makes the Americans bad people. Because they believe in democracy, they want to hand over power as quickly as possible to Iraqis. Because they don't see themselves as an empire, they want to rule with the lightest possible hand.

April 7, 2004: And once again, with feeling.

Washington's critics say that it is in trouble in Iraq because it is acting too much like an empire. In fact, it is in trouble because it is not acting enough like one.

As indicated earlier, links, articles and letters can be posted either to support a position or defend one. I normallly do not do this but on occasion get the urge. Look Moores film is controversial. Merely because I don't post an anti-Limbaugh article does not mean either side is accurate. However, do not post articles as unbiased middle of the road comment and/or editorial when the author appartently has a very right wing agenda and is quite pro-Bush.

To do so, places you in the catagory of dogs that bark who posts links to the National Review and Fox (sic) News as "fair and balanced" reporting without agenda or bias. Some of us, with the notable exceptions of Dogs, Dr. Freeze, Saint, Nosigar, Homedog and others too numerous to mention, know better than that.

By the way Selkirk, ever hear of a penny stock called OneVoice (onev). Non-listed over the counter stock selling around $.14 which I received an extremely hot tip on last Friday. Please give me an honest review and if so I will withdraw the above post and state that Marcus Gee is the most objective, fair and balanced editorial writer since Leonard Pitts, Jr.

Eddie
 
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selkirk

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Eddie of coarse Marcus Gee is biased, the title gives it away. The article is very critical of moore. Also do not agree with everything he writes, and have not read every article.

the posted info does not provide the full articles but they would read much like the one I posted. The globe is very balanced so you have to articles on both sides. politics is very polarized in the US I mean people either love or hate George Bush, the same can be said of moore.

as for the article it has a few facts, sadam supported sucide bombers and groups in the middle east, mainly attacking Israel. Nidal was in Iraq, of coarse he was "retired" and killed himself (or had help) before the invasion started. Sadam was a monster, he was when the US supported him and when he became their enemy. Never a bad idea to get rid of a dictator.

I never stated his biased because the title gives it away. still thought it was an interesting article, do not agree with everything in it, but some.

as for the current situation in Iraq it is not good Sadr is not dead nor captured and his power is growing. Large cities are basically no go areas for the US in Iraq, Falluja is controlled by the opposition.

Najaf and Kerbala are about the same, the new Iraq leader Allawi does not dare to hold a press conference outside the green zone, and is largely protected by US troops.

the Iraq army must be rebuilt, but during the confrontations in April there was 10% who may have switched sides and some refused to fight.

hard to find the answers, if the US leaves then Allawi would not last one week, so they have to stay and support the government they choose.

as for the stock will look into it, note: last post I made on this issue was defending the film to be distributed. a company called Lions gate which is not well run is one of the distributors. will make a gain on the film however is poorly run and is a better short going forward.

thanks
selkirk
 

selkirk

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Eddie the quotes are correct but the introduction is done by Frank magazine.. it is known for its satire and the fact it took a long time to find an owner since so many were trying to sue for lies and half truths.

ironically a former columist of the globe is now the editor and owner (unless he left) of Frank magazine.
I wish him the best, the magazine never lets the truth get in the way of a good story, or maybe they changed.

will agree Marcus Gee is pro George Bush though.

thanks
selkirk
 

djv

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I guess the main thing the film tell us that worries many. Where some of that money the Bushes came from. Saudi. Bush reason for war with Iraq was false. So reasons had to change monthly. Out of 500 congressman only one has a child, I guess now make it two kids in the service. And of course our presidents kids are not about to sign up. And this constant let's scare the American public about the next attack is soon. Thats called trying to manipulate your mind.
 

DOGS THAT BARK

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Eddie To your credit I believe your review was similiar in a quite wayered down way.I would say the author is somewhat biased but maybe Moore is just a tad biased also.I am interested in which of the 2 you think represented more fact than fiction.
Djv What scares me more than how those wealth was attained prior to politics, is those that attain it through politics.I am quite sure daddy B contributed to Jr's wealth and probably through politics to some degree but to come into politics while never paying taxes on excess of $36,000 a year and parlay bribes and scandles to millions and sell books and lectures because you have been prosecuted on almost ever morale and character flaw known to man kind is scarey.
 

Eddie Haskell

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Selkirk:

Difficult if not impossible to unite 3 major groups who have historically hated one another after Britain tried to make a unified country out of Persia in the last century. Similar to Yugoslavia. This is the exit plan, or lack thereof, that may be Bush's undoing.

Not familiar with Frank magazine. However, that is where I found the quotes. Could be some radical lefitist rag. Point is there are always two sides. Hey, not defending Moore but, rather enjoy hearing some anti-Bush stuff for once.

Just sick of tallk radio I guess. Waiting on your take on OneVoice.

Thanks,

Eddie
 

djv

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DTB, No thats not scary because he didn't do it to me. But had he as Bush did sent my kid to war over a lie. That would not only scare me but piss me off. And his wealth didn't come form dad because the type he needed. Dad didn't have. And remember someone pulled his butt out of the fire for his first big lose. They never tell us who that was. Kind of like those who worry about Mrs Clintons big land dealing for what was it 5 acres. And of course they weren't in the white house then either.
I don't think Bush could stand up to a 5 year investigation. I'm sorry his Saudi connection would sink him.
 

DOGS THAT BARK

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Saudi connection? If I am not mistaken the Saudi's are killing terrorist at record pace and have decared all out war on them as well as Pakistan-Afgan-Turkey-Jorden-Teran-Lybia ect.
Quite diif from a few years back--however eveidently there are those who prefferred them training and planning events like 9-11 openly in these countries. Ya I know, you don't feel any safer with them on our side and aiding in the fight--was much better when they could train-recruit ect openly in these countries.
War over a lie?? I see all the libs continue to bring up WMD's when for the life of me I thought it was for failure on resolutions which were offered numerous times and then deadline extended once more and amesty offered to Saddam and sons if they left country--but once again Saddam said we don't have to keep our promise regardless what U.N. says and it is coming to light why U.N "could not afford" to put pressure on. If you think effort was not worth it just considering the middle east countries above that have come on board I really don't know how to convince you. Do you really think 9-11 was a one shot thing and they would stop after that. Don't you think something had to be done--or just look the other way and hope it won't.
 

djv

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9/11 we were doing something and all backed Bush. Iraq had nothing to do with it. Zero. And Iraq was not on it's way to attacking us or having nukes. We had Saddam pinned down with no place to go. As for terror will it go away. Maybe in another 10/20 years. Who knows for sure. These folks don't mind waiting 10 years between big attacks. As for Saudi. The big money for terror still is coming through there channels. Saudi does more lip service then real services.
 

DOGS THAT BARK

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How we doing with Bin Laden?? I'd say he is definately not running around training and recruiting like in past administration or don't think we've turned down any offers on him.--but of course I am sure you think he is much more effective now than before as well as other terrorist --having nowhere to operate freely sure wouldn't be any progress in fight on terror--would it?????

I am not certain myself that he is alive--would like to view some recent footage of him.
Not so much that we took him out with bombs but the fact that he needs dialysis and getting to equipment and facilities is getting much harder.
 

Master Capper

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I have yet to see this flick but have had heard from numerous friends both pro's and con's. What I found interesting is that my friend Beau is a diehard Republican went to see the movie and he was telling me about what he thought about the movie and he said that if even 50% of what is mentioned in that movie was true then the country was in trouble, but he dismissed it as propaganda. Well a couple of days later I see him down on the ball fields before we are scheduled to play and he tells me that he went and watched the movie again because he was stunned at the allegations. After watching it a second time he told me that he was going to sit out this election because he cannot vote for Bush after watching the film a second time but he will not vote for Kerry since in his book voting for a Dem is a cardinal sin!
 

homedog

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Master Capper,

Secondary to making money, Moore's objective with this film is to sway the vote just like he did with your friend. It is purely politics and we know how much truth there is involved in election politics.
 

Eddie Haskell

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Shocking!!!! Thank God, Limbaugh, Hannity and Combs, Fox (sic) News, talk radio and the rest of the liberal media aren't doing that. Moore should be crucified.

Eddie
 
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