Iraq Civil War

[StevieD]

US Gen. Abizaid says civil war possible in Iraq
Reuters
Thursday, August 3, 2006; 10:34 AM


WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The head of the U.S. Central Command on Thursday said sectarian violence in Baghdad was as bad as he has ever seen and could lead to a civil war.

"Sectarian violence probably is as bad as I've seen it, in Baghdad in particular," Army Gen. John Abizaid told the Senate Armed Services Committee. "If not stopped, it is possible that Iraq could move toward civil war."

Must be those stupid liberals eh Weasel?

 

[kosar]

It's clearly the media's fault. Or Jimmy Carters. Pick one.

 

[danmurphy jr]

There's a demonstration for today held by the grateful Iraqi population against the Zionists and the US for the invasion of Lebanon. Think it's in Bagdhad.

 

[kosar]

Dan, you see, this is the beauty of a budding 'democracy.' People are free to demonstrate about anything, but only if it involves Israel or America (their 'liberators').

 

[djv]

In Baghdad they throw roses at our troops. Only problem is they explode.

 

[DOGS THAT BARK]

"There's a demonstration for today held by the grateful Iraqi population against the Zionists and the US for the invasion of Lebanon. Think it's in Bagdhad."
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Reminds me of liberal demonstrations here--so far they been smart enough not to torch their own neighborhoods following the riots.

You have to consider the source--remember prediction prior to Gop and Dem conventions of which side would have most radical protestors jailed--was no brainer-- handfuls vs hundreds.

 

[djv]

Boy DTB Kind Of Scary with over 200000 just in Baghdad. Hezbollah wins there. And Of course it's death to Israel and US.
Iran Also Britts embassy got hit today. Of course that was sponsored by government.
The one in Baghdad has no such backing. It's just a bunch of new terror recruits.

 

[kosar]

Wow! Just saw video footage of the Shia demonstration in Baghdad. Fricken nuts. 'Death to America', 'Get out of our country.' These are the people we turned the country over to. Iran owes us one.

Also huge demonstrations in Iran and Indonesia. I guess all the help we gave Indonesia after the Tsunami didn't buy us much goodwill. The only thing that matters is their religion, in all these places.

Wayne,

Not sure what 'liberal' election protests here in the states have to do with any of this. Also not sure what you mean by 'consider the source.'

 

[smurphy]

You have to consider the source--remember prediction prior to Gop and Dem conventions of which side would have most radical protestors jailed--was no brainer-- handfuls vs hundreds.

The fact that a riiot/demonstration in Iraq reminds you of some Liberal protest in the States is an indication of just how far detached from reality you are....or at least pretend to be. I stand by my earlier statement that I don't think you actually believe much of what you write. I swear you spin just for the hell of it.

 

[DOGS THAT BARK]

My intent was the physci of protestors in general--
Its not these people protesting are so much for Hez but the fact they hate Israel--remind you of anyone else

IMO most protestors in general have 3 things in common hate/time on their hands/an agenda

Could either of you see yourselves in a protest carrying a sign--of course not. Why-- you control your own destiny.

 

[smurphy]

I've never seen or heard of a rally in the US where Liberals were burning flags of Israel and telling our occupiers to leave. Your spinning is out of control. But if you want to keep drawing similarities between Iraqi Shiites and American liberal protestors, keep it up. Whatever makes you feel better instead of actually admitting that our administration has f'd this one up royally, then I reckon that's preferable to possibility facing a conclusion that you may have judged this whole scenario wrong..

 

[DOGS THAT BARK]

Have seen flag burning in U.S. on several occasions--and we know as I stated which side the fence they come from---

ACLU Praises Senators for Rejecting Flag Amendment, Says Bill of Rights Stands Strong and Intact (06/27/2006)
WASHINGTON ? The American Civil Liberties Union today applauded the Senate for rejecting a proposed Constitutional amendment to ban flag ?desecration.? The amendment, S.J. Res. 12, fell one vote short of the two-thirds majority required for passage.

--and those voting no-to banning flag burning--
NAYs ---34
Akaka (D-HI)
Bennett (R-UT)
Biden (D-DE)
Bingaman (D-NM)
Boxer (D-CA)
Byrd (D-WV)
Cantwell (D-WA)
Carper (D-DE)
Chafee (R-RI)
Clinton (D-NY)
Conrad (D-ND)
Dodd (D-CT)
Dorgan (D-ND)
Durbin (D-IL)
Feingold (D-WI)
Harkin (D-IA)
Inouye (D-HI)
Jeffords (I-VT)
Kennedy (D-MA)
Kerry (D-MA)
Kohl (D-WI)
Lautenberg (D-NJ)
Leahy (D-VT)
Levin (D-MI)
Lieberman (D-CT)
McConnell (R-KY)
Mikulski (D-MD)
Murray (D-WA)
Obama (D-IL)
Pryor (D-AR)
Reed (D-RI)
Sarbanes (D-MD)
Schumer (D-NY)
Wyden (D-OR)

Will the facts sway Liberal opinion--of course not--but thought I'd throw them up there anyway.

On the riots in Iraq--while granted they are not in our best interest I do not think they are what media has cranked them up to be--as was instigated and lead by al-Sadr and confinded to his area in Bahgdad--which would point to big error by this admin for not taking this king radical out when they had a chance.

 

[StevieD]

We have more problems to worry about than flag burning. Do we want our guys trapped in the middle of a civil war while Bush and his croonies get richer?

 

[DOGS THAT BARK]

1st Explain to me how this war has any impact on Gw's pursestrings?

As far as his cashing in on anything to do his presidency--I'll go on record and say there will be very remote chance you see him on circuit of book writing--speaking for profit ect. Could see Laura writing one maybe but would expect proceeds to go to charity.
Would say Edwards would also fit same scenerio--unlike some who have accumulated 99.9 % of their wealth through politics or marriage.

on our troops getting trapped in civil war--my analogy would be if they are fighting each other --thats less time fighting our troops.

--not that it will change your opinion but a few supporting facts--
most of this violence excalation has happened in July following putting gov in place.

June
U.S. troops combat deaths> 59
Iraqi Security Forces and Civilian Deaths>840

July U.S. troops 44
Iraqi Security Forces and Civilian Deaths> 1275

do you see pattern here?

 

[StevieD]

Bush gets rich thru inheritance for one thing. Daddy is big in Carlye Group and every move made seems to make those guys richer. Don't try to deflect criticism of Bush to Clinton either. Clinton became good friends with Daddy Bush so he has to be considered to be cut from the same mold. As for Laura maybe she can explain why such a "good girl" married a coke snorting drunk draft avoider.
As for you pattern does the word Vietnamization mean anything to you. They tried that in that farce of a war too.

 

[neverteaseit]

Well I can tell u since we pulled out of Baghdad along with the 3rd I.D. and then the 101st and 4th I.D. took over many problems have arised in central baghdad and the southern provinces. We had control in Muhammadiyah the 101st lost it. As a matter of fact we almost had a first ever in the history of the military I believe. We moved to southern Iraq and nearly went back to southern baghdad to help the active duty folks out or as I would say save their ass. They lost control of it and the trust we had built with the locals. But they refused to do that.

When knew commands come in they change things around, this time they failed. Look at the timeline of events. Especially southern baghdad. We left baghdad in Nov of 2005 heading south. Before we left the violence was not anywhere near what it is now. 3rd I.D. pulled out of Baghdad in December and January 05-06 and look at what has happened to Baghdad since then.

I may be wrong but I believe the leadership of these divisions along with the top brass or asses back in Washington made crucial mistakes in their new doctrine. Gen. Webster of the 3rd I.D. had it right and they should have stayed the course. Also Rumsfeld should have been canned awhile back along with some of the top brass in the pentagon. But that is my opinion which really amounts to nothing. The ones that are paying though are the soldiers in Iraq and the Iraqi people. Which most there are very good people once you get to know them and build there trust. I could ramble on about many other things but it is sometimes not so easy to put in words so to say.

 

[The Judge]

Well I can tell u since we pulled out of Baghdad along with the 3rd I.D. and then the 101st and 4th I.D. took over many problems have arised in central baghdad and the southern provinces. We had control in Muhammadiyah the 101st lost it. As a matter of fact we almost had a first ever in the history of the military I believe. We moved to southern Iraq and nearly went back to southern baghdad to help the active duty folks out or as I would say save their ass. They lost control of it and the trust we had built with the locals. But they refused to do that.

When knew commands come in they change things around, this time they failed. Look at the timeline of events. Especially southern baghdad. We left baghdad in Nov of 2005 heading south. Before we left the violence was not anywhere near what it is now. 3rd I.D. pulled out of Baghdad in December and January 05-06 and look at what has happened to Baghdad since then.

I may be wrong but I believe the leadership of these divisions along with the top brass or asses back in Washington made crucial mistakes in their new doctrine. Gen. Webster of the 3rd I.D. had it right and they should have stayed the course. Also Rumsfeld should have been canned awhile back along with some of the top brass in the pentagon. But that is my opinion which really amounts to nothing. The ones that are paying though are the soldiers in Iraq and the Iraqi people. Which most there are very good people once you get to know them and build there trust. I could ramble on about many other things but it is sometimes not so easy to put in words so to say.

Nice post Rodney.

In my mind your opinion is more valid than most considering your service in Iraq. It is nice to hear from someone with an objective take on this mess and I thank you.

 

[ferdville]

At this point, in my opinion, it is almost impossible to support this war. Support the troops - of course. But to one who favored it at the start, I cannot imagine how things could have gone worse. It is a disaster at best and I don't see any way out of this mess.

However, those who have been against this from the start, your arguments become weaker and weaker when you inject things such as Bush and his cronies are getting rich off the war; we went there for oil; Bush dodged the draft; etc., etc., etc. It is no different than those who point out how few soldiers have been killed compared to Viet Nam, Korea, Civil War, etc. That really has nothing to do with the quagmire which is Iraq.

Let's just look at the facts - we made a mistake going in; we horribly miscalculated the response; we did not have a valid exit strategy; etc. These are obvious and it is hard to refute these actions. I can't imagine if we had it to do over again that we would consider it.

I am stunned that our military and foreign experts could have been so wrong. The situation worsens every day. This has happened on Bush's watch and he must take the brunt of it. Yes, the Middle East has been smoldering for centuries, but it was his decision (which I originally supported) to get involved. Now it appears there is no way out.

I recall the debates at the beginning of this fiasco when many of us stated that there will never be a democratic republic throughout the Middle East. That has certainly turned out to be correct.

 

[smurphy]

Have seen flag burning in U.S. on several occasions--and we know as I stated which side the fence they come from---

ACLU Praises Senators for Rejecting Flag Amendment, Says Bill of Rights Stands Strong and Intact (06/27/2006)
WASHINGTON ? The American Civil Liberties Union today applauded the Senate for rejecting a proposed Constitutional amendment to ban flag ?desecration.? The amendment, S.J. Res. 12, fell one vote short of the two-thirds majority required for passage.

--and those voting no-to banning flag burning--
NAYs ---34
Akaka (D-HI)
Bennett (R-UT)
Biden (D-DE)
Bingaman (D-NM)
Boxer (D-CA)
Byrd (D-WV)
Cantwell (D-WA)
Carper (D-DE)
Chafee (R-RI)
Clinton (D-NY)
Conrad (D-ND)
Dodd (D-CT)
Dorgan (D-ND)
Durbin (D-IL)
Feingold (D-WI)
Harkin (D-IA)
Inouye (D-HI)
Jeffords (I-VT)
Kennedy (D-MA)
Kerry (D-MA)
Kohl (D-WI)
Lautenberg (D-NJ)
Leahy (D-VT)
Levin (D-MI)
Lieberman (D-CT)
McConnell (R-KY)
Mikulski (D-MD)
Murray (D-WA)
Obama (D-IL)
Pryor (D-AR)
Reed (D-RI)
Sarbanes (D-MD)
Schumer (D-NY)
Wyden (D-OR)

Will the facts sway Liberal opinion--of course not--but thought I'd throw them up there anyway.

WTF does this have to do with anything? You wanna spin your losing position on Iraq into a debate on flag burning in the US and who voted for/against the ammendment?

Fine - here's my stance: If it's illegal to burn the US flag, then the flag itself has lost it's value.

SPIN SPIN SPIN, CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON ACLU ACLU ACLU KERRY KERRY KERRY - Please, you are so much smarter than this.

 

[smurphy]

Excellent posts, neverteasit and ferdville!