I've just got to RANT about this..

Big_Mack

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Bobby Cox is the sorriest manager in baseball hands down.. Moss has a no hitter going vs. the Cards and this a$$hole pinch hits for him in the top of the 8th.. I know that Moss has thrown 117 pitches but honestly, how many times in this kids life will he be going into the 8th with a no no... Now, I know you are all saying "Big Mack you're a Cardinal fan".. This is true but I'd rather see this kid get a no no even if it ment a Red Bird loss... Even though the pitch count is high, he could still get the next 6 batters to ground out or pop out on 1 or 2 pitches each... Or if he starts the 8th by giving up a hit, then you pull him... Please someone explain this to me and what is going on in Bobby Cox head???

BOBBY COX this is for you :gf:
 

RDavis

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Dont Understand it either..

Dont Understand it either..

Its not like he has logged a bunch of pitches on his arm..Saving him for the playoffs(NOT),Plus its not like the Braves have anyone coming off the bench that can hit much better then their pitchers anyway..BOTTOM LINE IS BOBBY COX STINKS!!!!
 

fletcher

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he was already past his pitch count,you donot put a young pitcher in danger of injury early in his caree just for a no-hitter ask the cubs and woods.

also a know hitter is a personal thing not a big team thing,if he would of stayed in chances were good they would of given up game,braves needed the win and by far the smart thing to do,85% of your managers would of did the same thing when you try to streatch a young pitcher past his point to have a no-hitter or shut out your just asking for trouble down the road and it happens more then it should and they guy is out of ball or not the same after he blows rc or elbow tendon due to over extending him at a young age,the season is over 160 games he hasnot learned or built himself up to do that at his age or in the first monthshort term personal awards make for long term trouble in late july and aug ,the arm can only take so much tork on it. so it was the right move in my eyes and i would of done it also its a tuff call but you have to do whats good for the team overall and for the long run.
 

fletcher

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would like to hear other thoughts on this from some people,there is no right it wrong just looking to see how you veiw the game.
 

MadJack

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i vaguely remember billy martin single handedly ruining the whole starting rotation when he managed the a's way back when, when he must have been going for the record for complete games pitched by his staff.

but, tell that to cy young, who pitched almost everyday, double headers, complete games and has the record in sports that most likely will not be broken. how many wins does he have? 500+. it'll never be broken.
 

nakor

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I agree with Fletcher. Yes, a no-hitter would be great, but as it happened he would have had to pitch at least 10 innings and that wasn't going to happen. Much better to piss him off temporarily than to ruin his arm in a fleeting quest for glory.

Kudos to Cox.
 

ndnfan

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I gotta agree with Fletcher on this one. There is no reason to risk injury to a young arm. He made ton of pitches, heck it is a team sport as well.....gotta feel Cox pulled him for his benefit as well as the team's benefit. Just my opinion.
 

Big_Mack

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I understand the injury point of view, but who's to say Moss wouldn't have got out of the next two innings with just a few pitches.. Plus in my honest opinion I think the Braves might have been a little more fired up about scoring a run in the 8th or 9th if Moss would have still been in the game with a no no.. I guess you could say anything would have happened, but honestly I don't think that 15 or 20 more pitches would have done this kids arm in, but you never know..

Bring Nolan Ryan back.. Hell he never even knew what a pitch count was. LOL...

I'll never forget him putting Robin Ventura in a head lock and whipping his ass on the mound.. Ryan has to be one of my all time FAV players..
 

nighthorse

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What's the deal, nowdays, with pitch counts and "don't wear his arm out." Isn't there some middle ground between Billy Martin and what happened with KC last night?

Affeldt gets pulled after 4 innings and 67 pitches. He's a big, strong kid who went through the minors as a starter. To that point he had given up 1 run on 4 hits. Why start a guy you're going to limit to 65-70 pitches? This pitch count disease is something they start kids on in the rookie leagues and they never seem to graduate from it.

I think the best sign of a tired arm is giving up hard-hit balls....whether hits or outs. The Moss kid looked fine to me. I want pitchers on my staff who don't want to come out. These guys are trained to accept it...trained to go 6. It's pathetic.
 

RDavis

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I understand not injuring someone but hell a no hitter or at least a chance at one could do wonders for a kids confidence and future..Believe me I know the braves need a win as I do follow them closely here in FL but I really thought they should have given the kid a chance. Plus by pulling him had nothing to do with em winning in extra innings except use up another player you may need later..Gotta agree with Eric thers no right decision.. I guess this is why the Managers make sooo much cash to make these decisions and thats why Jack has a place like this for us to debate about it..

GL guys!!!
 

THE HITMAN

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I have to agree with Fletcher. In addition to his points, There may be a few other additional angles involved. Do we know Moss' inner psych situation........perhaps management thought it would do him more harm than good to throw a no no this early. Perhaps his past practice history indicates a very strong drop off after 115 pitches. We dont know. Perhaps Cox may be trying to disipline him a bit, keep him in his place for now, or the like. (remember, pitchers are traditional "flakes" ) Who really knows the inner workings of a club house except those that are there. There are many more things and situations than what meet the eye sometimes. Cox is no fool.........while he is no superstar manager, he doesnt embarass himself in the decision making process too often. No Hit Em Next Time.......THE HITMAN
 

kono22

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Even though Moss had a no-no, he had walked seven guys in seven innings. Thank god he hadn't given up any hits. He had thrown 117 pitches. The bottom line is that you are trying to win the game and I think that is what Bobby Cox was trying to do, even with Keith Lockhart.

In addition, Moss wouldn't even have been on the team if he had any options left to be sent back the minors. And, he wouldn't have been starting if "Leo the Great's" staff weren't so beat up.
 

wigs

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big mack--
funny you mention the ventura incident..my dad used to be the general manager of the hotel were all the visiting players stayed when they played the rangers, so, during high school, my summer job was that of a hotel bellhop--the day after the ryan/ventura fight, ventura(who stayed in his room all that day) came down of course sporting a nice pair of sunglasses--anyway that day i drove tim raines and frank thomas around(thomas had to buy some boots and $15 worth of jack in the box too) i'll never forget those two laughing their asses off at ventura while talking about the fight..thomas then went on a little tirade b/c chi media had made some comments about him sitting that game out againt ryan, he said "i'm 0-12 with 11 strikeouts against that muther f*cker!" -- brings back some funny memories(anyone remember detroit pitcher eric king??) well i got to work at 7 AM one morning, only to find a drunk and stumbling eric king stroll into the lobby about 30 mins later-- of course he didnt know his room number and didnt have his hotel key, so i had to help him up to his room, as i open the door, king cuts one of the loudest farts i've ever heard and then begins to laugh hysterically, he falls on his bed and asks me to keep this a secret--i saw him about 3 pm later that day and he comes over to the bellstand with a sheepish grin and $10 spot--those were the days-- :)
 

Big_Mack

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Funny stories wigs.. I still wonder WTF Ventura was thinking when he charged the mound on Ryan.. That was a classic for sure.. :lol:
 

JT

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fletcher is right. Pitchers should not be abused at a young age. As for the reference to Nolan Ryan, he did not pitch that many innings when he was with the Mets early on so he was not abused.
 

Big_Mack

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I'll quit posting after I make this final point.. Moss hasn't been abused and he was working on 7+ days rest... I hardly think that 130 or 140 pitches in one game would be considered abuse.. I'm tired of seeing these over paid babies on pitch counts... The greatest pitchers don't go on a pitch count and as some one stated "a pitch count is a guide not a rule"... If this kid was being worked every 4 days and was throwing 100 plus everytime then I'd have a problem with it, but guess what ??? He hasn't and I think Cox is an a$$ for not giving this kid a chance to throw the no no.. One game doesn't kill your arm, if you have been rested and in good shape .. A bunch of great pitchers never throw a No Hitter and this kid had one taken out of his hands b/c of a damn pitch count, plus the pinch hitter, the great Keith Lockhart grounded out... Moss could have done that and still came out for the 8th to see what would have happened.. Cy Young and several other GREATS are laughing their asses off about the pitch count.. Build these kids up in the minors and make them train harder in the off-season then we won't have to worry about a damn pitch count getting in the way for a chance in history..
 
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fletcher

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maybe this will help some of you guys understand it better.till you have played 140 which you do in minors or more or 160+ in the show in 5.5 months + practice you have no idea what type of wear and tear your body goes through,add travle and stuff coast to coast it really wears on you more then any other sport,you play at least 5 out of 7 days every week for almost 26 weeks and 1.5 months of spring training if you are a catcher or pitcher,if you played some college ball it is not even close to the same as that many games,and it wouldnot show up yesterday maybe a hit or 2 but its the next week or more because when you throw over 90 pitches your tendons and legiments are torn slightly and stretched and muscles are dead with latic acid build up and if you keep doing that till you are ready which he isnot you will have a mass of scar tissue the size of a ping pong ball before the end of the year or tendonities in either the elbow or the shoulder,also you run a greater risk of tearing a groin muscle or hamstring pull.

trust me the coaching staff has a chart for everything they know when you hit the wall,doesnot matter if he is still hitting 90,you look at location,movement,and sharpness on pitches they know before he knows when it is coming its a science,his time to the plate had dropped .12 secs from the 6th to the 7th that shows you he is tiered has nothing to do with speed you can still get that ,its the other things i just talked about that give it away.

each pitch is timed for speed with a gun,speed to the plate with a stop watch and video tape of each pitch and mechanics,people are paid to watch all this during the game not just coaching staff,whatch the guy in the hat behind homeplate in a dodgers game he has been with them for 15+years,he isnot a coach but he has all the pitching info that is his job. trust me they know how many times you piss in a game to know if you are getting enough fluids or if you are not putting out enough and have the chance of heat stroke or cramps and that isnot bs,way more goes on then you think,inless you have been there you wouldnot know,alot more goes on then just throw and hit the ball and run,way more. somedays you play 13 games in 14 days it is hell on the body,go golf every day foe 6 stright months and carry your bag and jog to ball after each shot,then you will get almost 1/4 of what it feels like to play baseball that many games in that time frame, and cox is by far not a stupid manager,and has the best pitching coach and traing staff in baseball,all of these people have input on this,then cox has the last word.
 

slvrblet

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fletch, very good points and some i never thought of...but im a fan no 1 and i didnt like to see it...your probably right...but for dicussions sake it has been a good topic...thanks for your input as always very thought out and educational...good luck with your picks tonight...ps..i caught for 12 years and its very easy for the catcher to know hes fading b4 anyone..:) and a catcher can usally limp a pitcher threw the batting order one more time after the pitcher fades..they knew.
 
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