Joe Biden believes it is "patriotic" to pay higher taxes!

DOGS THAT BARK

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most of the wall mart republicans that make 16.50 per hr if they are lucky and defend the rich don't understand this.... most wouldn't believe it......most do not want to think about the truth.... I know you cant over tax : clinton didn't and obama won't.......http://www.capitalgainsandgames.com/blog/andrew-samwick/329/beyond-awful-wall-street-journal

---and most of the non tax paying ghetto dwelling Dems like to put up partial context of articles--

Here is entire article that "got the liberal chop in link above":rolleyes:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121124460502305693.html

Kurt Hauser is a San Francisco investment economist who, 15 years ago, published fresh and eye-opening data about the federal tax system. His findings imply that there are draconian constraints on the ability of tax-rate increases to generate fresh revenues. I think his discovery deserves to be called Hauser's Law, because it is as central to the economics of taxation as Boyle's Law is to the physics of gases. Yet economists and policy makers are barely aware of it.

Like science, economics advances as verifiable patterns are recognized and codified. But economics is in a far earlier stage of evolution than physics. Unfortunately, it is often poisoned by political wishful thinking, just as medieval science was poisoned by religious doctrine. Taxation is an important example.

The interactions among the myriad participants in a tax system are as impossible to unravel as are those of the molecules in a gas, and the effects of tax policies are speculative and highly contentious. Will increasing tax rates on the rich increase revenues, as Barack Obama hopes, or hold back the economy, as John McCain fears? Or both?

Mr. Hauser uncovered the means to answer these questions definitively. On this page in 1993, he stated that "No matter what the tax rates have been, in postwar America tax revenues have remained at about 19.5% of GDP." What a pity that his discovery has not been more widely disseminated.

The chart nearby, updating the evidence to 2007, confirms Hauser's Law. The federal tax "yield" (revenues divided by GDP) has remained close to 19.5%, even as the top tax bracket was brought down from 91% to the present 35%. This is what scientists call an "independence theorem," and it cuts the Gordian Knot of tax policy debate.

The data show that the tax yield has been independent of marginal tax rates over this period, but tax revenue is directly proportional to GDP. So if we want to increase tax revenue, we need to increase GDP.

What happens if we instead raise tax rates? Economists of all persuasions accept that a tax rate hike will reduce GDP, in which case Hauser's Law says it will also lower tax revenue. That's a highly inconvenient truth for redistributive tax policy, and it flies in the face of deeply felt beliefs about social justice. It would surely be unpopular today with those presidential candidates who plan to raise tax rates on the rich ? if they knew about it.

Although Hauser's Law sounds like a restatement of the Laffer Curve (and Mr. Hauser did cite Arthur Laffer in his original article), it has independent validity. Because Mr. Laffer's curve is a theoretical insight, theoreticians find it easy to quibble with. Test cases, where the economy responds to a tax change, always lend themselves to many alternative explanations. Conventional economists, despite immense publicity, have yet to swallow the Laffer Curve. When it is mentioned at all by critics, it is often as an object of scorn.

Because Mr. Hauser's horizontal straight line is a simple fact, it is ultimately far more compelling. It also presents a major opportunity. It seems likely that the tax system could maintain a 19.5% yield with a top bracket even lower than 35%.

What makes Hauser's Law work? For supply-siders there is no mystery. As Mr. Hauser said: "Raising taxes encourages taxpayers to shift, hide and underreport income. . . . Higher taxes reduce the incentives to work, produce, invest and save, thereby dampening overall economic activity and job creation."
Putting it a different way, capital migrates away from regimes in which it is treated harshly, and toward regimes in which it is free to be invested profitably and safely. In this regard, the capital controlled by our richest citizens is especially tax-intolerant.

The economics of taxation will be moribund until economists accept and explain Hauser's Law. For progress to be made, they will have to face up to it, reconcile it with other facts, and incorporate it within the body of accepted knowledge. And if this requires overturning existing doctrine, then so be it.

Presidential candidates, instead of disputing how much more tax to impose on whom, would be better advised to come up with plans for increasing GDP while ridding the tax system of its wearying complexity. That would be a formula for success.
Mr. Ranson is head of research at H.C. Wainwright & Co. Economics Inc.
 

StevieD

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Lying With Charts

Lying With Charts

http://www.portfolio.com/views/blogs/odd-numbers/2008/05/20/lying-with-charts-wsj-edition?rss=true

May 20 2008 3:56PM EDT
Lying With Charts: WSJ Edition
In an Op-Ed in the WSJ today, David Ranson of H.C. Wainwright puts forth this chart showing that overall tax revenues as a percentage of GDP have remained remarkably stable even as the top marginal tax rate has fallen:



(FYI, Hauser's Law refers to Kurt Hauser, who Ranson says first identified this phenomenon in 1993.)

Ranson then uses this fact to make the Republican-friendly argument that raising taxes on the wealthy -- as both Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton are expected to try to do -- will lower government revenue because higher taxes tend to cut GDP growth. He writes:


...capital migrates away from regimes in which it is treated harshly, and toward regimes in which it is free to be invested profitably and safely. In this regard, the capital controlled by our richest citizens is especially tax-intolerant.
But there are a couple of problems with this argument. First, it strikes me that if you're going to plot tax rates for individuals, you should also look at tax revenues from individuals (all charts below show revenues as percentage of GDP):


While staying relatively stable, this source of tax revenue has ticked higher over the last 50+ years. So, why hasn't overall tax revenues also ticked slightly higher? Let's look at corporate tax revenues:


Hmmm, corporate tax revenues have declined dramatically. Why, then haven't overall tax revenues dropped? Well, we can primarily thank social insurance programs like Social Security for that. Here's a chart showing social insurance program tax revenues:



That's primarily how Hauser's Law works so well. And this brings us to the second problem with Ranson's claim. If you take social insurance tax revenues out of overall revenues (which Ranson's chart doesn't appear to do), you're left with this:




(pink shows social insurance revenues included, blue shows what happens when they're taken out)

Hauser's Law, which is really the Laffer Curve by another name, depends on very Democrat-friendly programs for its validity.


Does all of this mean that raising tax rates on the rich won't lower growth? My analysis doesn't prove this, but Hauser's Law doesn't prove the opposite.
 

BBMF

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Saint is the very essence of what has gone wrong in this country. ME ME ME.

It's time he and others like him get off their high horse and try and do some good for others.

Of course, that is like trying to sell snake oil to a snake oil salesman.:shrug:
 

saint

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Saint is the very essence of what has gone wrong in this country. ME ME ME.

It's time he and others like him get off their high horse and try and do some good for others.

Of course, that is like trying to sell snake oil to a snake oil salesman.:shrug:

I do good every day...help many kids and am a good influence on them. I volunteer all over town and give my time a lot of places. It's not about "me, me me" but I shouldn't be penalized for trying to make the most of my life. When we take away the reward to strive to success (however one defines it) something is inherently wrong.

You're right about one thing. It is "me me me" because I take responsibility for my own life. I worked for what I've got and was never handed a thing without having sacrificed.

I wish other people in our country had that "me me me" attitude. That way, when things are in the shitter, they can look in the mirror and see why, instead of blaming the credit card companies, the loan companies, their boss, and everyone else. The blame starts at home. If Americans started taking personal responsibility for their actions and quit blaming everyone else things would turn around much faster. To me that's one of the major weaknesses of our country. Where did the responsibility go?

Why do I need to do good for others? I enjoy doing good for others, but why is it needed? People need to do good for themselves and stop relying on others to do the good for them. We live in a blame society...blame everyone else but the person who is truly responsible.
 
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Happy Hippo

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Saint is the very essence of what has gone wrong in this country. ME ME ME.

It's time he and others like him get off their high horse and try and do some good for others.

Of course, that is like trying to sell snake oil to a snake oil salesman.:shrug:

Yea, as Saint said below, he is a great guy. But if they charge him a few more taxes, he is going to lay off his hard-working staff so that he can put more money in his own pocket - he said it before in another thread.

But I'm sure none of his staff are as hard-working as him - they are definitely not trying to make the most of their lives, or do good for themselves.
 

saint

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Yea, as Saint said below, he is a great guy. But if they charge him a few more taxes, he is going to lay off his hard-working staff so that he can put more money in his own pocket - he said it before in another thread.

But I'm sure none of his staff are as hard-working as him - they are definitely not trying to make the most of their lives, or do good for themselves.

You've got no clue what you are talking about. But if you want to live in your bubble, go for it.

Are you a small business owner? Have you ever been? Between my student loans and practice loan I will owe close to 1 million dollars. I'm lucky if I pay practice bills enough to cover overhead the way the economy is. So it's fair for my staff to get paid if they are sitting around because parents have to wait on treatment due to the economy, but at the end of the day I'm losing money. I'm the most loyal guy in the world with our staff but if I'm losing money (I know, shock) then we can't have excess. It's never fun but it's the reality. Unfortunately, people such as yourself think we're sitting around minting money but that's not the case. Really you are out of your league on this one and way, way off. You'd be surprised at the number of sheer pro bono cases I do to help kids out on medicaid. But to be honest I frankly don't give a shit what anyone here thinks about me because you don't personally know me.

If the economy is down, who do you think should take the hit...my employee or me? Who has the risk in my business...me. If I ended up in chapter 11 you think my staff really would care? No, they'd pack up shop and get a job down the street. I don't have that luxury. When you take all the risk as a business owner then the reality is in tough times I need to look out for me first. It's no different anywhere else.
 
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djv

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First thing you do if you haven't already. And you sure don't need me to tell you this. But if your loseing money. You get a small business PRO to help look at your case to find out why. To blame it on colllege loans and taxes. If thats it with cost of medica/dental care gone up so much in recent years. You got other things going wrong.
 

saint

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things will turn around. people are hurting. country needs change. hope we get it no matter what side it comes from. in the end we all want the same thing, our country to heal. if obama were to be elected and we can accomplish that, then it would be great. something's gotta give.
 

saint

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~$1MM loan to a service provider with the people skills of Saint . . . and people still wonder why our financial institutions have a liquidity crises.
not a mil. most practices take about half that to start up. it's actually a 'safe' investment...very few default.

:142smilie you'd be shocked if you met me in person. you may leave the encounter thinking i'm probably only half the ass i seem like on here :shrug: this is my alter ego at mjs after being nice to needy, high maintenance moms all day long. if it were up to me i'd see all blue collar families...hard working, have respect, well behaved kids and can pay because they don't blow their wad on cars and homes trying to keep up with the jones'.
 
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BobbyBlueChip

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:142smilie you'd be shocked if you met me in person. you may leave the encounter thinking i'm probably only half the ass i seem like on here :shrug: this is my alter ego at mjs after being nice to needy, high maintenance moms all day long.

I don't doubt that, but I'd rather keep you pigeonholed as a misguided, loud-mouthed conservative for now if that's alright.
 

bryanz

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2nd link is a blast, great writer, must read,right on!!!!

2nd link is a blast, great writer, must read,right on!!!!

---and most of the non tax paying ghetto dwelling Dems like to put up partial context of articles--
I won't take this personally coming from the likes of you...I have to say BRILLIANT !!! because I appose the current right, I am a democrat, non tax payer, getto dweller ??? I am American that has never voted for a democrat for president , never lived in a getto and pays taxes... I received unemployment for a month in the 1980's, thats the extent of my bailout.... Unlike the guy you support for president, I have not cost the tax payers anyting, Mccain has cost the tax payers BILLIONS !
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/8/21/184431/579/415/572174....can you see yourself in this article ???http://www.rumproast.com/index.php/site/comments/mad_dog_palin_by_matt_taibbi/
 
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bryanz

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StevieD

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Between my student loans and practice loan I will owe close to 1 million dollars. .

Always crying about the money they owe. Then in the next breath they blame a poor guy stuck with an upside down mortgage, lost his job, and had the real estate market collaspe. But they give the company that sold him the loan a free ride.
The country doesn't owe you anything Saint. We already gave it to you with your loans.
 

BBMF

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Saint: I owe you an apology. You are probably a great guy and seen to be open minded. I, too, am a small business owner and I have been forced into making many concessions to my clients (payment plans, write downs/offs, discounts, etc.). ANything to keep the business running for me to make a living and my employees/contractors from having to hit the streets.

I couldn't agree more with the idea of fiscal responsibility and the bulk of the responsiblity coming from home.

Truly, the lack of taking responsibility in theis country is alarming, the sense of entitlement is alarming. The BLAME GAME is alarming and the total lack of truth/knowledge of the electorate is alarming.

So, in light of your comments, post my post. Here's hoping that this whole thing gets us forward as a nation and as a society.:toast:
 

saint

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The country doesn't owe you anything Saint. We already gave it to you with your loans.

Who said I was owed anything?

This is going nowhere and is getting old. Nothing was given, it's called a loan where you pay interest. No different than a car loan...but I doubt you'd say that the bank "gave you the car".
 

bryanz

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Who said I was owed anything?

This is going nowhere and is getting old. Nothing was given, it's called a loan where you pay interest. No different than a car loan...but I doubt you'd say that the bank "gave you the car".

are you still crying ? leave the crying to the liberals....
 
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