John "Orange Glow" Boehner on the Bush Tax Cuts

bleedingpurple

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Where it is real F ing COLD
But I still believe that the retirement age should be raised signficantly, so it functions as it's original purpose.

I mean that is a good theory but how productive are we going to be at lets say 70 in the working field. What aboout those laborers. How the hell are they going to do it? Christ I feel aches and pains already and I am just turning 37.. You want me to keep on working another 33 years??
 

Wilson

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On the Social Security issue - do you folks realize the intent of the program when it was set up was to provide insurance for people that outlived their normal lifespan?

When it was enacted, the average male life was 58. For females it was 62. They set the age at 65, to help people that lived longer than they thought they would. The whole idea is that people were still responsible for saving for their own retirement - but if they lived years above the average, there was money there to help them as they couldn't anticipate they'd outlive the averages.

It was NEVER meant as an entitlement program, for people to use as a retirement fund.

I am one that does feel the age at which benefits are available should be 70 or 75. It is peoples responsibility to save for their own retirement, not the government.

Problem is, people don't save today like they used to. It is too important to have 2 cars, PS3, cell phones, flat screen TV's, little Johnny in sports every night of the week.

And regarding the tax cuts - EVERYONE should pay the same percentage rate - not have brackets. It's funny, you can't "discriminate" based on any characteristic of a person, but it is ok to discriminate based on how successful/unsuccessful people are. With a flat rate, the "rich" will pay a larger amount of taxes than "poor" in terms of dollar amount - which is fair. Jacking up the percentage rate is not.

The sad thing is, by Obama putting a line in the sand at $250K a year in defining rich, he is really hurting the economics of our country. Most of the house and Senate members are multi-millionaires (John Kerry for example - even Obama is). Raising the tax rate doesn't hurt them much at all.

What it does hurt is the small businesses that make between $250 and $500K. That is the vast majority of the money and where it resides. Maybe it would make more sense to INSTEAD install a few more tax brackets - maybe 50% at $1M, 75% at $5 a year.

Seems like those 2 ideas would really help - still spur small business growth, raise the tax base, and help get Social Security back to what it was meant to be - an insurance type program and not an entitlement program.


WTF are you talking about? That is my motherfuking money...entitlement?

JFC.
 

Mags

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I mean that is a good theory but how productive are we going to be at lets say 70 in the working field. What aboout those laborers. How the hell are they going to do it? Christ I feel aches and pains already and I am just turning 37.. You want me to keep on working another 33 years??

Bleeding - of course not - you can work as long as you want to.

Our problem today (myself included) is that most of us spend money on immediate wants, not needs - instead of saving for retirement. SS was never meant as a retirement vehicle for all - it was for those that lived much longer than the average lifespan and didn't save enough for those out years, since they thought they'd be dead already.

It's not the government's job to save for retirement for us - it is ours.

It's downright scary when you start adding up how much money we "waste" today - cell phones, internet, cable tv, electronics, multiple vacations per year (I remember my folks took 1 per year - now a lot of people take many more than that).

I guess people don't feel that they should take care of themselves anymore, but have someone (government) do it for them. It is too bad.
 

Mags

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WTF are you talking about? That is my motherfuking money...entitlement?

JFC.

Wilson - look it up - it was meant as a insurance program - even had it in the name of it.

And, you wouldn't feel that way if the age had been increased appropriately through the years and you had been putting in a 10th of what you are now.

But if it is your money, why give it to the government at all - why not let you keep it and save it yourself? Why does the government have to "hold" it for you - and then pay out to you less than you paid in - and that doesn't even account for the interest portion you will never see....

Because it is an asset transfer program - an entitlement
 

Trench

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Wilson - look it up - it was meant as a insurance program - even had it in the name of it.

Exactly. It's an insurance program, not an entitlement program. Now, you're catching on. ;)

And, you wouldn't feel that way if the age had been increased appropriately through the years and you had been putting in a 10th of what you are now.

Yes, the more Washington steals from the SS fund, the longer you should have to wait to collect on something you've paid into your entire working life (in my case, since I was 16 years old).

But if it is your money, why give it to the government at all - why not let you keep it and save it yourself? Why does the government have to "hold" it for you - and then pay out to you less than you paid in - and that doesn't even account for the interest portion you will never see....

That sounds good in theory but you answered your own question in your previous post. Americans don't save. Period. 401K's are great but if the company holding your 401K goes belly-up, it's... "Welcome to Wal-Mart... would you like a cart?"
Obviously, SS shouldn't be viewed as a retirement plan but for 75 years, it's helped keep 40% of Americans 65 and older out of poverty and helped the other 60% live more secure and comfortably in their "golden years".
 

THE KOD

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Because it is an asset transfer program - an entitlement


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The mystery of Jerry Brown?s pension

August 13th, 2010, 3:00 am ? posted by BRIAN JOSEPH, Sacramento Correspondent
Updated with comment from Brown?s spokesman

As Jerry Brown grabbed the spotlight with his criticism of Bell city officials and their outrageous pensions, The Watchdog got to wondering: How much will the Democrat for Governor make in retirement?

That, as it turns out, is a very difficult question to answer. After more than a month of investigation, the Watchdog can only say for certain that Brown and a handful of other top officials are eligible for generous benefits under a special pension fund so obscure that few people in government know how it works and many thought it had been eliminated 20 years ago by outraged voters.

Under the law, Brown should have accrued, at most, 16 years of service credit in this special fund, known as the Legislators? Retirement System, or LRS. Actuarial statements produced by LRS, however, indicate that an unnamed person of Brown?s age and earning Brown?s exact salary has been credited with 25 to 29 years of service. The difference would mean tens of thousands of dollars in additional pension payments for Brown each year.

Brown?s campaign staff acknowledge the unnamed person sure looks like the gubernatorial candidate but have been unable to explain the discrepancy over service.

Officials at the California Public Employees? Retirement System, which manages LRS, have similarly refused to cooperate, saying the law forbids them from answering questions about specific individuals. Meanwhile, The Watchdog has sought help from the offices of seven state lawmakers, one constitutional officer and one state department as well three outside pension experts and not one has been able to explain the discrepancy.

It?s a mystery as persistent as LRS itself.

THE PENSION SYSTEM THAT WON?T DIE

Founded in 1947, LRS was established by the California State Legislature as a special pension system to serve, well, members of the California State Legislature. Later, it was expanded a little to include constitutional officers, like the governor and attorney general, as well as four unelected legislative statutory officers who hold special responsibilities at the State Capitol. At the absolute most, no more than 136 working officials in state government could be members of LRS, which, by the way, offers pension benefits far more generous than what your typical state worker could earn.

For decades, LRS operated in relative anonymity, doling out pension and health benefits to retired lawmakers and other elected state officials, until the late 1980s, when frustration with state government reached a fever pitch in California. Riding a wave of discontent, voters in 1990 approved Proposition 140, a ballot measure which implemented term limits for state officials and eliminated pensions for state lawmakers.

Many thought Prop. 140 meant the end of LRS. Ted Costa, one of the driving forces behind Prop. 140, certainly did when the Watchdog spoke to him recently.

But Prop. 140 didn?t kill LRS, it merely shrunk it. Today, LRS membership is open only to the state?s eight constitutional officers, the four members of the Board of Equalization, the four legislative statutory officers and lawmakers first elected to the Legislature prior to 1990, who are grandfathered in. As of March, only 13 working officials were members of this independent pension system.

For that baker?s dozen, LRS is a good deal.

State Controller John Chiang, for example, currently is eligible for a $67,897 annual pension for a little over 11 years of elected service under LRS. Under the pension plan offered to typical state employees, Chiang would be eligible, at most, for $40,738 annually.

At the same time, LRS is enticing for retired lawmakers. In recent years, Assemblymen Charles Calderon, D-Whittier, and Jim Nielsen, R-Biggs, have come out of retirement to re-join the Legislature. By virtue of having first been elected to the Legislature prior to 1990, both are eligible to earn pension benefits for time in Sacramento while all other lawmakers are not.

WHERE?S JERRY?

But perhaps most eyebrow-raising is the service of a current LRS member identified in actuarial reports only as 65 years or older with 25 to 29 years of service and a salary of $184,301. CalPERS staff won?t talk about specific members, but with so few people in the system you can tell quite a bit from the actuarials.

Only two statewide elected officials have ever had the exact annual salary of $184,301, according to the California Citizens Compensation Commission: Superintendent of Public Instruction Jack O?Connell and Attorney General Jerry Brown.

Brown was born on April 7, 1938 ? he?s 72. O?Connell was born on Oct. 8, 1951. He won?t turn 65 until 2016. The person listed in the actuarials appears then to be Brown.

The only problem is Brown should have only 16 years of LRS-eligible service: four years as Secretary of State (1971 to 1974), eight years as Governor (1975 to 1982) and four years as Attorney General (2007 to 2010).

The Watchdog has spent weeks trying to account for the additional time, to no avail. LRS rules don?t allow members to transfer in service credit accrued in other elected offices, so that eliminates Brown?s time as Oakland mayor or as member of the Los Angeles Community College District Board of Trustees. LRS members also can?t purchase ?air time,? that is, they can?t add years of service credit by paying a fee, as is allowed in other public pension plans. There goes that option.

MYSTERY ENDURES

So how could Brown have additional time?

CalPERS official refuse to say. Spokespeople Brad Pacheco and Pat Macht have both told the Watchdog that even though CalPERS knows the answer, they are prohibited under the law from sharing it with the public.

?I am very sorry CalPERS staff can?t be more helpful, we have gone as far as we can go within the law,? Macht wrote in an email this week.

Brown?s campaign, for its part, says that the attorney general shouldn?t have more than 16 years of service in LRS. The Watchdog first asked the campaign about the discrepancy 3 1/2 weeks ago and while staff there have been polite, they haven?t gotten to the bottom of it nor have staff at the attorney general?s office been able to explain it either.

Campaign spokesman Sterling Clifford did tell the Watchdog that Brown started receiving an annual pension of about $20,000 when he turned 60 in 1998 and pocketed it every year until he assumed the attorney general?s office, when it was suspended. That means Brown?s received a pension on top of his $115,000 salary as Oakland mayor, but it doesn?t explain the discrepancy.

As best as we can tell, Brown would be eligible for an annual LRS pension of $73,720 if he has 16 years of service. If, somehow, he has 25 or more years, it would be $110,580.

We?re going to keep digging. Hopefully, we can get some answers.

UPDATE

Clifford contacted the Watchdog again and had a few more insights. He said that Brown was not a member of any pension system while he served on the community college board, but he did work one year as a clerk at the California Supreme Court, which combined with his time as Oakland mayor would give him nine years in the pension system open to all state workers. He also noted that pensions are calculated

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This is a entitlement program dumb ass.

Why dont you rant against this stuff ?
 

THE KOD

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Because it is an asset transfer program - an entitlement




"A statement by President Dwight D. Eisenhower

(1953-1961) concerning America's Social Safety Net. The original passage, from a letter Eisenhower wrote to his brother Edgar on November 8, 1954, went as follows" :
Should any political party attempt to abolish social security, unemployment insurance, and eliminate labor laws and farm programs, you would not hear of that party again in our political history. There is a tiny splinter group, of course, that believes you can do these things.

Among them are H. L. Hunt (you possibly know his background), a few other Texas oil millionaires, and an occasional politician or business man from other areas. Their number is negligible and they are stupid.

..................................................................

Nothing changes but the changes


Mags

if the shoe fits

wear it out dude
 

Mags

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"A statement by President Dwight D. Eisenhower

(1953-1961) concerning America's Social Safety Net. The original passage, from a letter Eisenhower wrote to his brother Edgar on November 8, 1954, went as follows" :
Should any political party attempt to abolish social security, unemployment insurance, and eliminate labor laws and farm programs, you would not hear of that party again in our political history. There is a tiny splinter group, of course, that believes you can do these things.

Among them are H. L. Hunt (you possibly know his background), a few other Texas oil millionaires, and an occasional politician or business man from other areas. Their number is negligible and they are stupid.

..................................................................

Nothing changes but the changes


Mags

if the shoe fits

wear it out dude

Whatever Scott. I know that you are a big fan of income transfer and entitlement programs. I'm not. It weakens society and creates a dependant class - instead of incenting work.

But Dwight's quote has nothing to do with what the original purpose of SS was. It has morphed into people's retirement income - which is was never meant to be. Too many people are too stupid to save for their own retirement and want the goverment to do it for them.

It's a weak argument to say we need more government because people are too stupid to take care of themselves. Stupid is, as stupid does.
 

Trampled Underfoot

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It's a weak argument to say we need more government because people are too stupid to take care of themselves. Stupid is, as stupid does.

You act like people are living it up on SS. Its shit. I know I won't be able to live on it. I put money in, I want my share when I retire. Whatever it might be.
 

MadJack

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Mags is brainwashed. Period.

JFC is right!
 
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