Marquez-Vasquez In-Fight

[BOXLOCKS]

I was rooting for Marquez but I saw him land several low blows and the ref warned him several times, so I wasn't surprised when he took a point. As I already said, its a shame that the fight was decided by a point deduction, but thats the way it goes

None of this matters anyway, even without the point deduction it was a draw and Vasquez keeps his belt

I agree with gw that Marquez is pound for pound the better fighter of the two, he just doesn't have the best chin


gl bl

 

[MayorgaFan]

i saw one "legit" low blow....and it certainly wasn`t that last hip shot...i also saw several low blows from vasquez that weren`t called...

you decide a fight of this magnitude based on a hip shot in the heat of battle?....in the the "10th" of a war like this?....

vasquez IS the naturally bigger man..marquez was the guy,just like jhonny gonzales...that moved up in weight.....that`s a fact...not speculation....lol


vasquez takes a beating early vs naturally smaller guys...and his natural size advantage,toughness and chin enable him to outlast smaller guys via attrition... that`s how he won these fights...

and when he moves up a weight class as marquez and gonzales did,we can all cash in...

cause he`s limited...and his face first style won`t serve him well vs bigger guys...

maybe we can make a personal wager... if he ever steps up to fight linares/guerero or even chris john....

i`d be surpriesed if he could even out tough orlando salido...

Marquez being a weight felon at 118 is a fact and not speculation either. I don't see Vasquez with some noticeable edge in size. It's just not there :shrug: As for the low blows it can be argued but I saw marquez land to many low blows and he was warned for it to many times. The ref actually took a point on the wrong punch but Marquez landed a lot of them so I don't have a problem with it. Vasquez will be about as effective at 126 as Marquez will. Marquez is not some great boxer his defense just isn't good enough. I said it before the fight and I am still saying it. His boxing ability is overrated. He has great offensive skills but his defense just isn't that good.

 

[gardenweasel]

Marquez being a weight felon at 118 is a fact and not speculation either. I don't see Vasquez with some noticeable edge in size. It's just not there :shrug: As for the low blows it can be argued but I saw marquez land to many low blows and he was warned for it to many times. The ref actually took a point on the wrong punch but Marquez landed a lot of them so I don't have a problem with it. Vasquez will be about as effective at 126 as Marquez will. Marquez is not some great boxer his defense just isn't good enough. I said it before the fight and I am still saying it. His boxing ability is overrated. He has great offensive skills but his defense just isn't that good.

his defense was fine...he just can`t hold up for 12 vs a naturally bigger,stronger guy(yes ,he does have a chin issue).... vasquez is the guy with the defensive liabilities...



these fights were effectively marquez` first at the weight(not counting some b.s. fights vs 2 tomato cans 8-10 years or so ago) ....his first legit fights at 122 were vs a guy that spent maybe 10 years at the weight...a guy who was the champion at the weight....

wonder why didn`t vasquez move down and clean it out at 118?..

cause he couldn`t make the weight...

why`s that you say?...`cause he`s to big..


all due respect,you can say 'weight felon"as many times as you like...vasquez won these fights and the one vs gonzales because he was naturally bigger...not because he`s better..

he`s "so much better" that it took a point deduction and a pseudo knockdown with 10 seconds left to win the rubber match vs a smaller guy.....

lol

and because he`s not a great technician,he`ll get his ass beat if tries to move up...which i doubt he`ll do....he`s already taken way to much punishment from these smaller guys moving up...

this is one of my peeves when discussing boxing...smaller guys that try and push the envelope by stepping up in weight get a bit of short shrift when compared to guys that sit nice and cozy and control one division throughout a career...

their legacy is compromised because they take fights vs guys that are naturally bigger...

trying to achieve even more profound greatness..doing something that benefit`s the sport...pushing the envelope...taking chances..

lets see if vasquez steps up now..at the very least,fight some of the other legit super bantams..other than larios,where`s the beef?. .he doesn`t have that much of a resume,to tell the truth...

will he take the challenge?...don`t hold your breath....i believe the man knows his limitations...

i hope that vasquez at least fights some of the other legit champs at 122...

 

[The Sponge]

I was rooting for Marquez but I saw him land several low blows and the ref warned him several times, so I wasn't surprised when he took a point. As I already said, its a shame that the fight was decided by a point deduction, but thats the way it goes

None of this matters anyway, even without the point deduction it was a draw and Vasquez keeps his belt

I agree with gw that Marquez is pound for pound the better fighter of the two, he just doesn't have the best chin


gl bl

I was a little tipsy during the fight so i have to watch it again. My recollection was that every time Marquez hit Vas near the belt line Vas would stop to get a reaction from the ref. I thought this the first and second time and diff remember the third. Bad night to start drinking again and the hangover in the morning has me now rethinking why i drink. Feels good when im drinking tho.

 

[gardenweasel]

we can all agree to disagree...

mayorga knows his shit....and i`ve been around the block a time or two...doesn`t mean we`ll see eye to eye on all issues regarding the game....

thats what makes this place so enjoyable.....we can all take our positions,smack each other around a bit,discuss our opinions and come back again without getting our panties in a bunch...

thats why i really like and respect the guys here...nobody takes it to heart...ya` gotta have a bit of a thick skin...

it wouldn`t be much fun if everybody just fricking nodded their head and walked around like they were on a bad peyote trip.....

 

[MayorgaFan]

.....

.....

Marquez gained a ton of weight when he fought at 118. Walking into the ring at 130+ when you weigh in at 118 is just silly. Again, I see no real evidence that Vasquez is any bigger than Marquez. Marquez has spoken of fighting at 126, why do you think that is? Without a doubt Vasquez is stronger, but not really bigger. As for vasquez's resume not being that good he has beaten Gonzalez, Marquez (twice) and larios (twice). His mid level wins are where he lacks as his resume falls off frorm there but those are 5 excellent wins.

As for Vasquez having defensive issues, sure he does I never said otherwise. The truth is though a lot of people thought marquez could just box Vasquez in the 3rd fight and win. That wasn't going to happen Marquez simply isn't that hard to hit. He gets hit clean PLENTY, even before this trilogy.

In the end Vasquez won and Marquez lost (2 out of 3 anyways). Vasquez has a better resume than Gonzalez without a doubt. Marquez's resume isn't exactly above Vasquez's either. IMO it's pretty much even which makes Vasquez better since he won 2 out of 3.

We aren't going to agree but it really don't matter. We will see what happens as each guy's career continues. If I remember right Marquez is even a few years older.

 

[punchmaster]

all due respect,you can say 'weight felon"as many times as you like...vasquez won these fights and the one vs gonzales because he was naturally bigger...not because he`s better..

he`s "so much better" that it took a point deduction and a pseudo knockdown with 10 seconds left to win the rubber match vs a smaller guy.....

lol


trying to achieve even more profound greatness..doing something that benefit`s the sport...pushing the envelope...taking chances..

lets see if vasquez steps up now..at the very least,fight some of the other legit super bantams..other than larios,where`s the beef?. .he doesn`t have that much of a resume,to tell the truth...

will he take the challenge?...don`t hold your breath....i believe the man knows his limitations...

i hope that vasquez at least fights some of the other legit champs at 122...

Don't think your doing yourself any favors, knocking Vasquez, who has perhaps the best stamina and will in the game, putting him in fight of the year candidates at least 4 times. Not his size advantage that's the secret of his success, it's heart, will, and skiill. First of all , Oscar Larios, a huge super bantam was considred the longtime kinpin at 122, until Izzy comes in and stops him in 3 rounds to take two out of three in that trilogy also. So he never had trouble fighting The Best in his weight class as you mentioned something about hoping Vasquez at least fights some of the other legit champs- been there, done that.

Find a way to PM me and I'll send you a close up of Izzy and Rafa's weigh in and any casual observer with decent vision will telll you Rafa is the bigger man. It blew me away- Rafa's shoulders, arms neck, dwarfed Izzy.

Some fighters are better at engineeering their weight, able to get down to nothing and refuel to a nice size advantage and it appeared Rafa was gifted in that regard as Mayorga fan alluded to. He was a monster at 118 and one could argue his victories over Silence Mabuza, not better, just too strong.


Sure, Rafa's a better technician, he's like an A, A+ but Izzy is no slouch in the skills department, perhaps he's a B+, but you don't land the amount of shots he did just because of size.


And what the heck is a pseudo knockdown. Did you happen to not see Izzy smash Rafa all over the ring, with right after right, until finally drilling him into the ropes. Thought the ref did Rafa a favor, preventing him from getting knocked cold- the dude was helpless.
Take nothing away from either fighter , it's amazing the display we saw, yet people find ways to try and take away heart, will, and determination at it's highest level.

 

[frank s.]

Nice post punchy. I did'nt realize you were at the fight. You have my cell; you should have called. I'm not to crazy about the area that joint is in. It was cool though. The Mexicans I sat with were all pretty friendly dudes.

 

[gardenweasel]

Don't think your doing yourself any favors, knocking Vasquez, who has perhaps the best stamina and will in the game, putting him in fight of the year candidates at least 4 times. Not his size advantage that's the secret of his success, it's heart, will, and skiill. First of all , Oscar Larios, a huge super bantam was considred the longtime kinpin at 122, until Izzy comes in and stops him in 3 rounds to take two out of three in that trilogy also. So he never had trouble fighting The Best in his weight class as you mentioned something about hoping Vasquez at least fights some of the other legit champs- been there, done that.

Find a way to PM me and I'll send you a close up of Izzy and Rafa's weigh in and any casual observer with decent vision will telll you Rafa is the bigger man. It blew me away- Rafa's shoulders, arms neck, dwarfed Izzy.

Some fighters are better at engineeering their weight, able to get down to nothing and refuel to a nice size advantage and it appeared Rafa was gifted in that regard as Mayorga fan alluded to. He was a monster at 118 and one could argue his victories over Silence Mabuza, not better, just too strong.


Sure, Rafa's a better technician, he's like an A, A+ but Izzy is no slouch in the skills department, perhaps he's a B+, but you don't land the amount of shots he did just because of size.


And what the heck is a pseudo knockdown. Did you happen to not see Izzy smash Rafa all over the ring, with right after right, until finally drilling him into the ropes. Thought the ref did Rafa a favor, preventing him from getting knocked cold- the dude was helpless.
Take nothing away from either fighter , it's amazing the display we saw, yet people find ways to try and take away heart, will, and determination at it's highest level.

not knocking him..just saying marquez is the better pfp guy...more skilled..beaten better fighters...more complete...

just smaller...

if you go back and read my final write-up,i picked vasquez...actually by late stoppage...imo,he`s a good,strong,tough,resilient super bantam with very poor defensive skills...

i`m not taking away his heart and determination..but you can`t ignore the fact that he was at 122 for around 11 years while marquez basically never sniffed the division until he stepped in with vasquez...

you seem to have lost sight of the fact that it was marquez that was doing the heavy lifting by moving up in weight...

he was the naturally smaller guy...c`mon....that`s not a tough concept(which knob is the hot water,dude?)....

vasquez has heart will and determination..he`s a very strong,determined super bantam....but,imo,he won the fights vs marquez and johnson because he`s the naturally bigger,stronger guy...

he`s terrible defensively...i mean really bad...he took major beatings early in each fight...truthfully,you go back and watch the gonzales fight and gonzales made him look like a clown...until he landed the big shot...his shots hurt gonzales and marquez more...

BECAUSE HE`S THE NATURALLY BIGGER,STRONGER GUY...

it`s really simple...
he`s a harder puncher than marquez,yet marquez has the higher k.o. percentage...why?

because...."he`s hitting naturally bigger men" at 122......it`s all relative...

THAT`S WHY THEY HAVE WEIGHT DIVISIONS...THAT`S WHY GUYS SPEND MOST OF THEIR CAREERS IN THEIR NATURAL WEIGHT DIVISIONS...

we`ve had this discussuion about how much 4 pounds means in these lower weight divisions..thats why they delineate them in 4 pound increments...

i`ll make you the same offer i made mayorga....if vasquez moves up and fights 4 pounds above his natural weight(126),as marquez did(moving from 118 to 122),i`ll take linares,john or guerrero(not luevano...he`s not an elite fighter imo)...

i mean,according to you,vasquez is "the man " at 122....so,if he steps up like marquez did and fights one of the premier guys at 126,then we can wager...

lemme know...anytime...

i give him credit for beating larios,...but,i don`t care how tall he is..who cares what a weigh in photo looks like?..he like,vasquez were professional 122 pounders...larios was tough,but not a real big puncher....

.if weigh in photos told the story,arguello would never have knocked anybody out...

and i`d say with confidence that marquez has the better resume....i mean,they both fought some reasonably tough peripheral guys in their divisions,but,other than larios,there are few,if any elite fighters...


whereas marquez had multiple fights with mark johnson and mabuza...not to mention pfp guy tim austin who was thought of as practically unbeatable until marquez climbed off the canvas to end his career...

but,that was at 118..... and theres the rub...

brings to mind mauricio pastrana...an old great...(of course,he couldn`t beat marquez.....why?...he was just to SMALL..as tough as they come at super flyweight...but,he struggled at bantam)...

size means something...you have to give due consideration to smaller guys that have the stones to take the chance.....and provide us with these great moments(even though some guys don`t seem to get the fact that they`re bucking the odds and putting their legacy in jeopardy)....

given that it took the bigger man three fights...a knockdown with 5 seconds left in the last fight and a bogus point deduction to win the closest of razor thin decisions in the rubber match,i think marquez is the mmore complete fighter...

the better pfp guy....

if vasquez moves up and fights as well at 126 as marquez at 122,i`ll gladly reconsider...

 

[MayorgaFan]

If you want to talk about size advantages, how can you POSSIBLY give Marquez much credit for beating an old ass,smaller guy who was coming out of prison? ZThe truth is Johnson sucked at 118 and never accomplished a thing there. his prime weight was 112. Marquez's win over Austin was good but calling Austin a PFP level fighter? Based on what exactly? Who did he beat to deserve that kind of recognition?

I thought Johnson beat Marquez pretty clearly the first time to even make it worse. Vasquez don't need to move anywhere, he's already proven he's better than Marquez where it counts, that would be inside the ring.

Lastly, if Marquez could still make 118 he would still be there. he was killing himself to make weight. Aren't you a guy who has complained about guys gaining a ton of weight in the past because marquez is 1 of those guys. Or at least he was at 118. You talk like Marquez is some kind of little guy. Take a look at Marquez-Johnson, THAT is a size difference. Vasquez-Marquez? No real size difference.

 

[gardenweasel]

If you want to talk about size advantages, how can you POSSIBLY give Marquez much credit for beating an old ass,smaller guy who was coming out of prison? ZThe truth is Johnson sucked at 118 and never accomplished a thing there. his prime weight was 112. Marquez's win over Austin was good but calling Austin a PFP level fighter? Based on what exactly? Who did he beat to deserve that kind of recognition?

I thought Johnson beat Marquez pretty clearly the first time to even make it worse. Vasquez don't need to move anywhere, he's already proven he's better than Marquez where it counts, that would be inside the ring.

Lastly, if Marquez could still make 118 he would still be there. he was killing himself to make weight. Aren't you a guy who has complained about guys gaining a ton of weight in the past because marquez is 1 of those guys. Or at least he was at 118. You talk like Marquez is some kind of little guy. Take a look at Marquez-Johnson, THAT is a size difference. Vasquez-Marquez? No real size difference.

inside the ring?....he looked like he`d been through a threshing machine...he won the last fight because of a point deduction,if memory serves me....lol


and thanks for making my point for me with the marquez/johnson comparison.......i was hoping you`d mention that... the comparison`s are uncanny considering point deductions may have cost johnson one of HIS fights,much like marquez/vasquez III...thankfully,marquez,with the size advantage,settled the issue clearly with a k.o. in the second go round....unlike vasquez in the 3rd...

well said..

and remember,"old ass" johnson(who to be fair,was a little past his best),WAS the super flyweight champ at the time(or abandoned it to move up,but never lost it in the ring), moved up and lost to marquez(after having TWO TUNE-UPS at bantam) and then went back down to 115 with his "old ass" and beat fernando montiel who was undefeated at the time...and who`s never lost to anyone but johnson,other than when he "MOVED UP" to fight jhonny gonzales(hmmmm?...that moving up in weight thing can be tough on these little guys,huh?)......

and btw...austin defended the bantam title 10 times after beating undefeated mbulelo botile to win the title...that`s why he was considered a pfp guy...

we`re not gonna agree...apparently moving up in weight only means something to some when it suits them...in other situations,it`s meaningless...

theres an old navajo saying..."you can`t wake a person who`s pretending to be asleep".....

i stand by my wager offers....

not much else i can say...punchy,you can have the last word,bro....

no hard feelings,guys..

 

[punchmaster]

inside the ring?....he looked like he`d been through a threshing machine...he won the last fight because of a point deduction,if memory serves me....lol


and thanks for making my point for me with the marquez/johnson comparison.......i was hoping you`d mention that... the comparison`s are uncanny considering point deductions may have cost johnson one of HIS fights,much like marquez/vasquez III...thankfully,marquez,with the size advantage,settled the issue clearly with a k.o. in the second go round....unlike vasquez in the 3rd...

well said..

and remember,"old ass" johnson(who to be fair,was a little past his best),WAS the super flyweight champ at the time(or abandoned it to move up,but never lost it in the ring), moved up and lost to marquez(after having TWO TUNE-UPS at bantam) and then went back down to 115 with his "old ass" and beat fernando montiel who was undefeated at the time...and who`s never lost to anyone but johnson,other than when he "MOVED UP" to fight jhonny gonzales(hmmmm?...that moving up in weight thing can be tough on these little guys,huh?)......

and btw...austin defended the bantam title 10 times after beating undefeated mbulelo botile to win the title...that`s why he was considered a pfp guy...

we`re not gonna agree...apparently moving up in weight only means something to some when it suits them...in other situations,it`s meaningless...

theres an old navajo saying..."you can`t wake a person who`s pretending to be asleep".....

i stand by my wager offers....

not much else i can say...punchy,you can have the last word,bro....

no hard feelings,guys..

No hard feelings at all. Your probably a big Rafa fan, how can one not be. ? His accuracy and punch combinations were unreal. The adjustments he made for the third fight were fantastic. It took an unfathomable effort from Izzy in the final round to overcome. Rafa moved up to 122 because he had no choice, he was really hurting go get down to 118 and it started to show in his stamina. Not sure if Izzy is at that point- his stamina is obviously perfect at that weight. Huge featherweights that your mentioning , Linares, Guerrero are far to big and there is a big size advantage there against Izzy. I just don't see that type of size advantage for Izzy over Rafa. I'm actually pretty unbiased and a fan of both but I had no problem with Russel taking the point , even if that particular shot wasn't the lowest, but there were plenty of warnings and it seemed a strategy to keep smacking the hip area to slow Izzy down and that's just not right. Your saying Izzy won because of the point deduction- I sort of thought it was because of the 12th and final round, with the fight on the line, Izzy went balls to the wall until he scored the knockdown. That last right hand shot while Rafa was helpless, holding the top rope was brutal and Russell did well to throw his hip in there and block Izzy out and start the count- some refs would have called the TKO , IMO. Great fight, no losers.

 

[The Sponge]

Your saying Izzy won because of the point deduction- I sort of thought it was because of the 12th and final round, with the fight on the line, Izzy went balls to the wall until he scored the knockdown. That last right hand shot while Rafa was helpless, holding the top rope was brutal and Russell did well to throw his hip in there and block Izzy out and start the count- some refs would have called the TKO , IMO. Great fight, no losers.

Punchy that was one huge thing i took from the fight. How many fights have we seen where you just want to see a guy dig deep and take the 12th round and both guys do basically nothing and you sit there stunned watching both guys pathetically trying to just finish the fight? That 12th round in my opinion was the heart of a guy who wants to be called a champion.That is digging deep down and letting everything hang out.

 

[MayorgaFan]

inside the ring?....he looked like he`d been through a threshing machine...he won the last fight because of a point deduction,if memory serves me....lol


and thanks for making my point for me with the marquez/johnson comparison.......i was hoping you`d mention that... the comparison`s are uncanny considering point deductions may have cost johnson one of HIS fights,much like marquez/vasquez III...thankfully,marquez,with the size advantage,settled the issue clearly with a k.o. in the second go round....unlike vasquez in the 3rd...

well said..

and remember,"old ass" johnson(who to be fair,was a little past his best),WAS the super flyweight champ at the time(or abandoned it to move up,but never lost it in the ring), moved up and lost to marquez(after having TWO TUNE-UPS at bantam) and then went back down to 115 with his "old ass" and beat fernando montiel who was undefeated at the time...and who`s never lost to anyone but johnson,other than when he "MOVED UP" to fight jhonny gonzales(hmmmm?...that moving up in weight thing can be tough on these little guys,huh?)......

and btw...austin defended the bantam title 10 times after beating undefeated mbulelo botile to win the title...that`s why he was considered a pfp guy...

we`re not gonna agree...apparently moving up in weight only means something to some when it suits them...in other situations,it`s meaningless...

theres an old navajo saying..."you can`t wake a person who`s pretending to be asleep".....

i stand by my wager offers....

not much else i can say...punchy,you can have the last word,bro....

no hard feelings,guys..

I had Johnson beating Marquez regardless, of deductions or anything else. I thought Vasquez beat marquez clear enough in the 3rd fight, deduction or no deduction. Vasquez proved the better man in the ring. Vasquez 2 Marquez 1 and those are the results that matter.

BTW-What PFP list was Austin on? Yeah he had 10 title defenses against some really subpar opposition he never really had any signature wins. In the end you can try to criticize me but my eyes and the stats don't lie. That's just the way things are and apparently it don't suite you that well. Oh well. Let me know when Marquez goes back to 118, when that happens I would concede but as it is he HAD to move up because of weight issues. You can only get away with killing your body for so long.

 

[punchmaster]

Puncy that was one huge thing i took from the fight. How many fights have we seen where you just want to see a guy dig deep and take the 12th round and both guys do basically nothing and you sit there stunned watching both guys pathetically just trying to finish the fight. That 12th round in my opinion was the heart of a guy who wants to be called a champion.That is digging deep down and letting everything hang out.

Couldn't agree with you more Spongeman. Izzy laid the blueprint on how a champion should conduct himself in the 12th round of a fight in the balance. When you compare it to some other
12th round performances in championship fights- Winky against Taylor, De La Homo against Trinidad, and the track meet that Stinks ran against Karmazin....... Granted I wouldn't have made it to the fifth round, but I'm just a keyboard warrior here. I don't know what it is about the Mexican Warriors but they've helped carry the sport while the heavyweights waltz around.

 

[gardenweasel]

fair enough..solid arguments all, the way around....

i gotta say(half in the bag right now after flirting with all the young barmaids at the bar/restaurant down the street....and i`m gonna hit one of `em very soon...just don`t tell the old lady)...)that i just love arguing/debating/talking boxing with you guys...

probably many of you have friends that don`t give a crap about boxing(i moved to n.j. at 10 years old for 5 years and that`s where i took up p.a.l. boxing)like mine don`t..when i moved back to my hometown the p.a.l. leagues were basically policemen getting their jollies watching young guys beat the hell out of one another...and it sucked..no structure...no nothing........

and being able to come on the net and discuss a passion with guys like we have here,is like a safety valve for me,and it brings me great joy as i have nobody around me that knowns a turnbuckle from a carbuncle(now that my brothers gone)...


sometimes i go a little overboard praising guys(like the newbies),and sometimes i`m more rancid than puss from a lanced boil....

if i get a tad snarky or insult anyone,please don`t take it personally.....give it back in spades...or wait a day,cause i`ll surely be back to apologize once i get my head on straight....

i do appreciate the knowledgable debate and have the ultimate respect for you guys...

i just have some rough edges that poke through on occasion....

good debate,guys...i have the ultimate respect for vasquez...please don`r doubt that....

 

[gardenweasel]

thank you teddy atlas...

i`m paraphrasing.."the difference was that vasquez was just naturally a little bigger and stronger,being a super bantamweight basically his whole career,and marquez a bantamweight"...