N Korea Kills Shark

Chadman

Realist
Forum Member
Apr 2, 2000
7,501
42
48
SW Missouri
Great info here, I've learned a lot about a region I know little about. One thing Kosar mentioned in passing was our ally in The U.K. I'm wondering what damage we have done in that regard with the Iraq war situation. The Bush administration certainly sold his "good friend" Blair down the river with the faulty intelligence blame when things got hot in the kitchen politically. Blair seems to be losing more and more support politically and the opposition party gaining more and more - in great part for some of his decisions to remain tied to the Bush administration on most issues. I'm not Bush bashing here, just wondering aloud how much damage has been done to our relationship with The U.K. and what that means moving forward. I am extremely concerned with the Super Power hobnobbing going on between some major players like China, Russia, France, and the formation of the EU to become more of a player financially in the world.

Of course, I worry too much these days...sigh.
 

Chadman

Realist
Forum Member
Apr 2, 2000
7,501
42
48
SW Missouri
Since I am convicted of being nothing but a Bush basher...I should probably mention I think his handling - or the lack thereof - in the No. Korea situation has been pretty prudent. I think he is handling a difficult situation in a pretty smart way so far.
 

kosar

Centrist
Forum Member
Nov 27, 1999
11,112
55
0
ft myers, fl
AR182 said:
and why the iran gov't. & n. korean gov't. to be toppled.

Toppled how? We've been waiting for the Iranian government to topple from within for 30 years. It will never happen like that in NK either.

So honestly, it's easy to say they need to go, but practically speaking, what are you(GW can chime in here as well) suggesting specifically?

Invading NK and Iran? Bombing them? What?

Regarding the NK situation, South Korea has a whole way of life to lose for at least decades, as well as millions, yes millions, of deaths. That's what happens if we invade or start bombing. Are we advocating this because that nutjob shoots off a few defective missles into the sea for attention?

Then what? After years of that war? We control the whole peninsula and China has good ol' America for a neighbor as millions of North Koreans flood their country. Of course that assumes they stay out of it militarily, which is debatable. They sure didn't in the first one.

I'm sure they haven't forgotten that MacArthur wanted to actually invade China and they'll be keeping a damn close eye on things even if they don't get involved.

Set off a nuke, even a tactical one, in North Korea? Right next to China? Yeah right.

Japan today said they are withdrawing their demand for sanctions against NK. South Korea wants diplomacy because they don't want their country anililated. China and Russia? We know their deal. I would like to know who exactly is left?

We have 150,000 troops bogged down by 'insurgents' with IED's and mortar shells and apparently you guys are suggesting going to war with NK and Iran?

It would be easy (for us) to try to surgically bomb NK's known reactors. It's just that the resultant NK invasion would be just a little more dicey. I mean, think about it.

If that makes me 'passive', as GW suggests, then so be it.

That's why i'm asking you guys, and anyone, what exactly you would have us do. Not just, 'you're passive and we need to topple them', without considering the consequential aftermath.

What's the plan? Throw something out there.
 

AR182

Registered User
Forum Member
Nov 9, 2000
18,654
87
0
Scottsdale,AZ
What's the plan? Throw something out there.

fortunately for everybody concerned i don't get paid to come up ideas about over-throwing these type of gov'ts.

but whatever it takes we can't let iran get nuke capability.and we can't think we can give them incentives to stop their enrichment or whatever it's called.

maybe if we're lucky iran will step in, as they are threatening to do, & get into the the israeli situation.
 

kosar

Centrist
Forum Member
Nov 27, 1999
11,112
55
0
ft myers, fl
AR182 said:
fortunately for everybody concerned i don't get paid to come up ideas about over-throwing these type of gov'ts.

but whatever it takes we can't let iran get nuke capability.and we can't think we can give them incentives to stop their enrichment or whatever it's called.

maybe if we're lucky iran will step in, as they are threatening to do, & get into the the israeli situation.

I didn't mean some elaborate war plan, just in general. The CIA has been trying to subvert the Iranian government for 30 years...I doubt we have even one agent in NK. So I guess my point is that just hoping for an overthrow from within is futile.

So that leaves military aggression. I'm just trying to flesh out what would happen during and after a NK invasion of the south.

I think Iran is a much more tenable situation, in general, and I totally agree with your thoughts about them doing something in response to the Gaza bombings by Israel. In fact, I thought that exact thing earlier today when I saw their comments.

I'm not sure i'd go so far as to say i'm 'hoping' for it, but at the very least it would give us an 'out', of sorts. We would probably need to send every last troop over there practically, but in the end I don't think it would be a total disaster, as it would be in the NK scenario.

Israel, and of course America, would then be at war with the entire region. But I agree that something has to give regarding Iran. I wish we were in a better position to do something, and that's been the crux of my argument all along that invading/occupying/rebuilding/policing Iraq was a horrible decision.
 

djv

Registered User
Forum Member
Nov 4, 2000
13,817
17
0
Iran and N Korea separate animals. Europe has to worry more about Iran. And I do think long run Iran will be easier to deal with. Bush did learn hard way what his dad tried to tell him. Iraq not so important. And if you invade with out a way out plan your stuck for long time.
So we have negotiations going with N Korea. That dirty word that conservatives say Clinton did. Mean while we sat on our hands for them breaking the signed agreement. They say we did that first. So Bush calls them evil but then won't talk with them. Bush after doing this say's it's more in China, Russia, Japans and S Korea interest to handle problem. Neat call them evil then don't talk to them. We need to remember the Armistice N Korea has is with us and S Korea not those other countries. They are technically still at war with us. So not dealing direct and ducking for almost 6 years was stupid. As last few days have taught us. We were the ones talking with them for last 50 years. For better or worse we at least have kept peace be it shaky. And kept them in line. But walking away for last few years really let cat out of the bag. And we can't just pull up to this border like we did Iraq and drive in. Something that JR also should have learned from Dad
 

SixFive

bonswa
Forum Member
Mar 12, 2001
18,720
237
63
53
BG, KY, USA
interesting thread.

Matt, I've had a couple of buddies that served in S.K., and they like you loved it and have very fond memories of that area.

I don't know what the answer is here. I always hoped that China would take care of the North Koreans, but maybe Kim Jung-il isn't as stupid or crazy as I thought to provoke them. Scary situation. The Korean war is called "The Forgotten War", and I would sure hate to see that again. Why people forgot that horror, I do not know. In my experience, Korean war veterans are much more traumatized/scarred than the WWII veterans I have met. Same goes for those that served in both; Korea was much worse for them. Hope we're not destined for that again.
 

djv

Registered User
Forum Member
Nov 4, 2000
13,817
17
0
Six Five your right believe over 45000 lost there lives there. And so many lost there feet to frost bite. At least to a new boot was developed called the Korean boot. It came from a company right here in my home town. It recevied honors back then for its contribution. And now it's gone sold to a China company about 5/6 years back. unreal.
 
Last edited:

kosar

Centrist
Forum Member
Nov 27, 1999
11,112
55
0
ft myers, fl
SixFive said:
interesting thread.

Matt, I've had a couple of buddies that served in S.K., and they like you loved it and have very fond memories of that area.

Clint,

They must have been single when they went because any married people serving there got chewed up and spit out of said marriage. It's what they call a hardship tour and that means you can't take your wife or husband, unlike stints in Germany, Japan, Italy...etc.

I was young and single, so I didn't mind coming down on levy(where the army tells you you're moving-in my case from FT Campbell) to go there, but man, that was the LAST place married people wanted to go. And even plenty of single people also because they heard it was a 'shithole.' Those were the people without an open mind and probably didn't see a 'real' Korean during their tour. Just stayed at the post.

Marriages were destroyed, one after another. Was just terrible. It was a combination of 'faults' between guys screwing around and their wives screwing 'Jody', the anonymous(term) guy back home screwing her that the military uses.



I don't know what the answer is here. I always hoped that China would take care of the North Koreans, but maybe Kim Jung-il isn't as stupid or crazy as I thought to provoke them. Scary situation. The Korean war is called "The Forgotten War", and I would sure hate to see that again. Why people forgot that horror, I do not know. In my experience, Korean war veterans are much more traumatized/scarred than the WWII veterans I have met. Same goes for those that served in both; Korea was much worse for them. Hope we're not destined for that again.


It was a horrible war and would be worse this time for many reasons.

China has every incentive to keep things peaceful. They're in an interesting situation. In that part of the world, and Wayne will tell you, 'face' is everything.

China will NEVER publically strongly rebuke NK and 'embarrass' Jong-Il or support any strong UN sanctions, but you can believe that behind the scenes China is telling NK not to invade the south without provocation from us. Or to do anything that will result in a war on the peninsula.

It would be disaster for China, just like for South Korea and America, albeit in somewhat different ways.
 

pirate fan

Registered User
Forum Member
Aug 24, 2002
880
1
18
I don't think N. Korea purposely made these failed attempts. I think they would love to get in the business of selling arms to whatever nut wants it. Also I'm not sure about arming some countries. hose who we are friends with today may not be later. ie, shah of Iran, even whats his name, we helped him fight Russia during the Afghanistan invasion and now he turns around and is our biggest enemy.
 

AR182

Registered User
Forum Member
Nov 9, 2000
18,654
87
0
Scottsdale,AZ
kosar...

if n. korea continues acting the way they are...i believe japan will make changes to their constitution & we will see them start developing nuclear capabilities....once china sees this i think their attitude will change.
 

DOGS THAT BARK

Registered User
Forum Member
Jul 13, 1999
19,424
128
63
Bowling Green Ky
South Korea can't play middle of the road--in their election several years ago it was very tight with the winner running on anti U.S. sentiment. All the older generation that had been through the conflict voted for pro U.S. leader--" younger generation" who had seen nothing but the good times were the peaceful bunch and eventual winners thinking this would be ok if they just gave NK what they want--was also many demonstrations for U.S. troops to leave--which you see none of now. --remind you of anywhere else?? I don't see how we can be forceful with SK wanting to continue route of passiveness--which is mindboggeling considering without our help or intervention the North would take the south in a matter of days.
Intersting also is SK was one of last major countries to elect liberal pres--we have seen germany-canda even mexico go the conservative route--and very little doubt about Chiroc in France.
Don't see any solutions in NK nothing will change them--they have nothing other than military and only way they exist is to use it for bribes and bulling ect.
China??--hard to say but they are country changing from within--despite them voting along lines with Russia in general I have to believe it is more out of keeping U.S. in check than out of mutual admiration--even despite their co-military manuevers few years back i have to believe Russia is more of concern to them the U.S. ever was or will be--by proximaty alone.
Iran is a huge prob--and needs to be dealt with in no uncertain terms--whether it be Isreal-U.S. or anyone else doing it. If one thing positive is to come of it--it is proof to allies that negotiations mean nothing to terrorist regimes except time to complete their objectives--how long have the Euro's been in negotiation with them--really? and who really cares if it pisses off Muslim nations--if anyone can't tell by now they need no provocation. Muslim idealogy is like a cancer--if you confine it to its own area it will kill itself--if you let it spread to other countries it will have effect on place it inhabits. Kind of ironic in fact your communist countries are most efficient in keeping them in check in their own countries and the countries that aid them are the ones they hate the most.
 

DOGS THAT BARK

Registered User
Forum Member
Jul 13, 1999
19,424
128
63
Bowling Green Ky
VERY interesting article on matter---especially Singapores involvement--


Has 3 parts here 1st part and link to other 2
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2089-2261782,00.html

The Sunday Times July 09, 2006


West mounts 'secret war' to keep nuclear North Korea in check
Michael Sheridan, Far East Correspondent



A PROGRAMME of covert action against nuclear and missile traffic to North Korea and Iran is to be intensified after last week?s missile tests by the North Korean regime.
Intelligence agencies, navies and air forces from at least 13 nations are quietly co-operating in a ?secret war? against Pyongyang and Tehran.



It has so far involved interceptions of North Korean ships at sea, US agents prowling the waterfronts in Taiwan, multinational naval and air surveillance missions out of Singapore, investigators poring over the books of dubious banks in the former Portuguese colony of Macau and a fleet of planes and ships eavesdropping on the ?hermit kingdom? in the waters north of Japan.

Few details filter out from western officials about the programme, which has operated since 2003, or about the American financial sanctions that accompany it.

But together they have tightened a noose around Kim Jong-il?s bankrupt, hungry nation.

?Diplomacy alone has not worked, military action is not on the table and so you?ll see a persistent increase in this kind of pressure,? said a senior western official.

In a telling example of the programme?s success, two Bush administration officials indicated last year that it had blocked North Korea from obtaining equipment used to make missile propellant.

The Americans also persuaded China to stop the sale of chemicals for North Korea?s nuclear weapons scientists. And a shipload of ?precursor chemicals? for weapons was seized in Taiwan before it could reach a North Korean port.

According to John Bolton, the US ambassador to the United Nations and the man who originally devised the programme, it has made a serious dent in North Korea?s revenues from ballistic missile sales.

But the success of Bolton?s brainchild, the Proliferation Security Initiative (PSI), whose stated aim is to stop the traffic in weapons of mass destruction, might also push North Korea into extreme reactions.

Britain is a core member of the initiative, which was announced by President George W Bush in Krakow, Poland, on May 31, 2003. British officials have since joined meetings of ?operational experts? in Australia, Europe and the US, while the Royal Navy has contributed ships to PSI exercises. The participants include Australia, New Zealand, Japan, Italy, Spain and Singapore, among others.

There has been almost no public debate in the countries committed to military involvement. A report for the US Congress said it had ?no international secretariat, no offices in federal agencies established to support it, no database or reports of successes and failures and no established funding?.

To Bolton and senior British officials, those vague qualities make it politically attractive.

In the past 10 months, since the collapse of six-nation talks in Beijing on North Korea?s nuclear weapons, the US and its allies have also tightened the screws on Kim?s clandestine fundraising, which generated some $500m a year for the regime.

Robert Joseph, the US undersecretary for arms control, has disclosed that 11 North Korean ?entities? ? trading companies or banks ? plus six from Iran and one from Syria were singled out for action under an executive order numbered 13382 and signed by Bush.

For the first time, the US Secret Service and the FBI released details of North Korean involvement in forging $100 notes and in selling counterfeit Viagra, cigarettes and amphetamines in collaboration with Chinese gangsters.

The investigators homed in on a North Korean trading company and two banks in Macau. The firm, which had offices next to a casino and a ?sauna?, was run by North Koreans with diplomatic passports, who promptly vanished.

The two banks, Seng Heng bank and Banco Delta Asia, denied any wrongdoing. But the Macau authorities stepped in after a run on Banco Delta Asia and froze some $20m in North Korean accounts.




Page 1 || Page 2 || Page 3
 

djv

Registered User
Forum Member
Nov 4, 2000
13,817
17
0
I believe not only do we stop Korean ships and inspect them. Others nations ships that are say not on the friendly list are being stopped to. But this was no secret. It's been going on for years.
 
Bet on MyBookie
Top