Patraeus Endorses Closing Gitmo and Ending Torture

[DOGS THAT BARK]

Wayne, would you consider waterboarding to be a form of harsh interrogation techniques? If not, what authority do you base that on? There certainly are military and other officials who have labeled it as such, just wondering if you are going to stand on your opinion to make this narrow distinction, or if there is anything else you are using as fact?

You don't have to say torture, but since you are being so specific, the question stands...

How many times do I have to answer that--will archive this one--I do when same question is asked numerous time.

Waterboarding is enhanced interrogation not torture IMO

--and as I stated the most perfect form of interrogation I know -so far-that leaves no residule effects.

many of our special forces are submitted it in training--reporters and every swinging dick --except your don't taze me bro--pink tu tu clad liberals have volunteered.

My hope and our troops hope would be that if they are caught that is worse they'd be submitted to.

Does that answer your question?

Now your turn since all others have backed out like sand crabs---do you have quote from Patraus saying we "tortured" anyone?

Now one more word search--find one time in todays speech to his muslim brothers where our Groveler in Chief mentioned the word terrorist?
You'll find him proclaiming torture and everything else--describing 911 but not a word about terrorist--
I got news for Gumby--'most" Americans haven't forgot-and refuse to appologize for payback.

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[Trampled Underfoot]

I got news for President of the United States--'most" Americans haven't forgot-and refuse to appologize for payback.

Payback? How about payback for US imperialism? You better go back to history class.

I edited your disrespectful name for your President. Have some damn respect.

 

[Trench]

Waterboarding is enhanced interrogation not torture IMO

Who cares whether you consider waterboarding torture? That's not what I asked.

I'll rephrase the question so you can take your tap shoes off -- Can you name one single U.S. Military Leader that's come out in support of the use of waterboarding?

One more question DTB... Is John McCain wrong too?

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[Lush Rimbough]

How many times do I have to answer that--will archive this one--I do when same question is asked numerous time.

Waterboarding is enhanced interrogation not torture IMO

--and as I stated the most perfect form of interrogation I know -so far-that leaves no residule effects.

many of our special forces are submitted it in training--reporters and every swinging dick --except your don't taze me bro--pink tu tu clad liberals have volunteered.

My hope and our troops hope would be that if they are caught that is worse they'd be submitted to.

Does that answer your question?

Now your turn since all others have backed out like sand crabs---do you have quote from Patraus saying we "tortured" anyone?

Now one more word search--find one time in todays speech to his muslim brothers where our Groveler in Chief mentioned the word terrorist?
You'll find him proclaiming torture and everything else--describing 911 but not a word about terrorist--
I got news for Gumby--'most" Americans haven't forgot-and refuse to appologize for payback.

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Wow, you are really a dumb ass backwards redneck hillbilly aren't you. Why don't you and goober git ya fisin poles and head down to the pond for some fishin and talkin politics. Git er done!

 

[DOGS THAT BARK]

Wow, you are really a dumb ass backwards redneck hillbilly aren't you. Why don't you and goober git ya fisin poles and head down to the pond for some fishin and talkin politics. Git er done!

Got your little pink Tu Tu with KOS emblem in a wad--yes??

Fact of the matter is unlike you I'm someone who's been in military in time a war where capture was a concern--

You on the otherhand are a liberal with the opinion that solution to terrorist chopping heads of their captures is telling them they have right to remain silent--which is fine if you live in land of OZ and your only real life experience is reading Huffington post--

 

[Chadman]

How many times do I have to answer that--will archive this one--I do when same question is asked numerous time.

Waterboarding is enhanced interrogation not torture IMO

--and as I stated the most perfect form of interrogation I know -so far-that leaves no residule effects.

many of our special forces are submitted it in training--reporters and every swinging dick --except your don't taze me bro--pink tu tu clad liberals have volunteered.

My hope and our troops hope would be that if they are caught that is worse they'd be submitted to.

Does that answer your question?

Now your turn since all others have backed out like sand crabs---do you have quote from Patraus saying we "tortured" anyone?

Remains a very nuanced answer, seems to make a point, and skirts the issue, IMO. So, are you saying that there is a difference between enhanced interrogation techniques and harsh interrogation techniques (for the purposes we are discussing here, I mean)? Do you think Petraeus does not consider waterboarding to be a harsh from of interrogation? For example, when it's done to the same person 120 times or so? Are you really asking me to believe there is this nuanced a difference in this conversation? That he thinks so? I don't think so, but maybe you can explain the difference, and perhaps give some examples, or a list, or something. I know why you chose that word - it avoided the question rather deftly, but I don't think there is that big a range of activity to make that work.

Interesting that you then go on to say:

"My hope and our troops hope would be that if they are caught that is worse they'd be submitted to.

Understandable, but why would that be - for the purposes of this discussion? Meaning this is pretty bad, right, and we wouldn't want worse? Of course these soldiers are trained and subjected to this... they are being prepared for the bad things our enemies will do to us to extract info, or just to plain hurt them. They need to let the soldiers know that they may be tortured, mistreated, and here is one thing that the bad people can do to you. Would you consider if Al Qaida grabbed one of our soldiers, and waterboarded him 120 times, that it would be an enhanced interrogation technique? I sincerely doubt that - in fact, I would guess you would use that as justification for doing bad things to others under the guise of safety for us.

One important distinction to be made though - there is one chicken shit swinging dick that has not followed through with his waterboarding volunteering - Sean Hannity. He volunteered, yes, to score points and get ratings, then hid and avoided it. Much like other big previous administration talkers who promote war and who have avoided duty that you reference (and I admire and appreciate).

Clearly, you are going to try to make this nebulous wordplay work. Maybe show me some kind of facts that can explain a difference - otherwise, I still consider it fuzzy words. I know what your stated opinion position is - but it doesn't address this adequately for me. Your position avoids the direct question, IMO.

To your question, that you stubbornly ask others to answer while massaging the direct comments to you, I have not found anywhere specific where he said waterboarding is torture. I haven't looked, either, so I can't say for sure one way or the other. That's not really important to me - I think his position is pretty clear on this issue - although you guys want to blame that on the Obama factor, without admitting that there was ever a Bush factor in his opinion process previously.

And so it goes...

 

[Trench]

Chad... IMO, the lack of response on this thread from those who previously made posts supporting the use of "enhanced interrogation techniques", including waterboarding, suggests they've reconsidered their position.

I understand when someone says "The hell with the rights of guys like KSM or Zubaydah. They killed 3000 Americans!". My opposition to waterboarding has nothing to do with the "rights" of known terrorists.

What I don't understand is how those who support the use of waterboarding can ignore the position of our President and our military leaders on this. They refuse to accept that without exception, interrogation experts from the military to the FBI have stated time after time that interrogation techniques like waterboarding don't work. More importantly, they refuse to accept the damage that Gitmo, Abu Ghraib and sinking to the level of torture have done to the image of the U.S. around the world.

I remember the outpouring of sorrow and compassion the world showered on the U.S. on 9/11 and the days that followed. Would we have received the same outpouring of affection if a 2nd attack had occured in 2007 or 2008? I wonder.

 

[The Sponge]

Chad... IMO, the lack of response on this thread from those who previously made posts supporting the use of "enhanced interrogation techniques", including waterboarding, suggests they've reconsidered their position.

I understand when someone says "The hell with the rights of guys like KSM or Zubaydah. They killed 3000 Americans!". My opposition to waterboarding has nothing to do with the "rights" of known terrorists.

What I don't understand is how those who support the use of waterboarding can ignore the position of our President and our military leaders on this. They refuse to accept that without exception, interrogation experts from the military to the FBI have stated time after time that interrogation techniques like waterboarding don't work. More importantly, they refuse to accept the damage that Gitmo, Abu Ghraib and sinking to the level of torture have done to the image of the U.S. around the world.

I remember the outpouring of sorrow and compassion the world showered on the U.S. on 9/11 and the days that followed. Would we have received the same outpouring of affection if a 2nd attack had occured in 2007 or 2008? I wonder.

How do u debate guys who believe we get attacked because the terrorist hate our freedoms? I mean this has to be the biggest reach of an excuse known to mankind and these naive neo-con ass kissers bought it for goodness sakes. The neo-con bosses might as well have said "they hate us because we breath the same type of air'. I could see that also working with these jackasses.
Now for the question he refuses to answered as well as the other long time chickenhawk from this site, I would have to believe Ollie North might have said it isn't torture so he can sign a new five year contract with the Foney Fix News Entertainment network.

 

[DOGS THAT BARK]

-- have all those that think Patraeus was against waterboarding threw in their 2 cents yet?

Only one deciding question for you.

Do you really think a person that has ordered numerous villiages destroyed--was responsible for deaths of thousands of terrorist--be against a few seconds of discomfort (that he subjects his own troops to in training) on same terrorist in effort to protect us?

If so--look up definition of Naive and read it twice :SIB

 

[The Sponge]

-- have all those that think Patraeus was against waterboarding threw in their 2 cents yet?

Only one deciding question for you.

Do you really think a person that has ordered numerous villiages destroyed--was responsible for deaths of thousands of terrorist--be against a few seconds of discomfort (that he subjects his own troops to in training) on same terrorist in effort to protect us?

If so--look up definition of Naive and read it twice :SIB

U still can't come up with a name?:shrug:

 

[jer-z jock]

U still can't come up with a name?:shrug:

Joe the Plumber. There wont be a name because it was bullshit. I like how waterboarding is just a few seconds of discomfort:142smilie . Like let me choke you around the neck until you almost pass out and then I let go and re choke as soon as you get color back in the face....its only discomfort:shrug: (but the feeling/possibility of death if improperly done is right around the corner)

 

[The Sponge]

Joe the Plumber. There wont be a name because it was bullshit. I like how waterboarding is just a few seconds of discomfort:142smilie . Like let me choke you around the neck until you almost pass out and then I let go and re choke as soon as you get color back in the face....its only discomfort:shrug: (but the feeling/possibility of death if improperly done is right around the corner)

It was discomfort till one of the chickenhawks tried it and went cowering into the corner after just 6 seconds :142smilie . Even the guy that got tasered "dont tase me bro" laster nine :mj07: ow ow ow.

 

[Trench]

-- have all those that think Patraeus was against waterboarding threw in their 2 cents yet?

No... only General Patraeus himself. :mj07:

DTB... since you like to deny reality when all empirical evidence is staring you in the face, maybe you should spend more time on Kentucky golf courses looking for the Nicole Brown/Ronald Goldman killers. I think O.J.'s got the Florida courses covered.

I've golfed several of the Kentucky State Park courses but no sign of the Brown/Goldman killers. Maybe you'll have better luck. :shrug:

 

[Chadman]

I can only assume you read my post and decided to either avoid it or just change the subject to ask a different question/scenario, Wayne. So, I'll not feel the need to play in your sandbox at this point.

 

[DOGS THAT BARK]

Sorry Chad Went back over and can't find question your speaking of. One more time please.

 

[Chadman]

No problem - Post #26. Thanks.

 

[Turfgrass]

Yes waterboarding is torture, but?

If someone has information that could save thousands of lives, wouldn't you do anything you could to get that information? Pull out the bamboo shoots. Dump water over the guy's head. Poke 'em in the eye. Wouldn?t you do everything you could until he talks?

Keep in mind I?m not talking about doing it just for the sake of doing it, or the fun of seeing someone in misery, I?m talking about a reasonable expectation that you could get that information from this guy.

That's why this whole "torture" debate is such nonsense. You can sit on your high horse and bemoan torture all you want, but if it is the life of someone you love and cherish on the line, then it would be my guess you would suddenly be in the mood to make exceptions.

In the case of Khalid Sheik Mohammed, the Islamic goon who admitted to planning the attacks of September 11th, that's exactly what the CIA did? not only did they use waterboarding, but they used it 183 times! The horror! And guess what? It worked!

http://www.cnsnews.com/public/content/article.aspx?RsrcID=46949

Because the CIA waterboarded this Islamic goon, he revealed information that led the US government to thwart a planned attack on Los Angeles. But nobody bothers to release any information that shows how many American lives were saved or the realities of any consequences of those planned attacks. Of course not, because that would legitimize the use of these techniques to save American lives.

OK ?bottom line time. Let's talk torture. If someone has the information that could save thousands of lives -- OK ... just one life ... just so there is no question of where I stand (as if it matters). If we know that there is a nuclear bomb in downtown Chicago set to go off in hours; and if we have somebody in our custody who can tell us where that bomb is, if you had a reasonable expectation that you could get that information from this guy by (you might not want to read this) pulling out his fingernails or (gasp!) pouring water on his face ... and you didn't do it ... then you are every bit as worthless as he is.

 

[Trench]

Because the CIA waterboarded this Islamic goon, he revealed information that led the US government to thwart a planned attack on Los Angeles. But nobody bothers to release any information that shows how many American lives were saved or the realities of any consequences of those planned attacks. Of course not, because that would legitimize the use of these techniques to save American lives.

I've already debunked this on another thread, but once again... the Bush Administration claimed the LA Library Tower plot was thwarted in February of 2002. The problem this presents is that Abu Zubaydah wasn?t captured until March of 2002 and Khalid Sheikh Mohammed wasn?t captured until March of 2003.

So how could their waterboarding have prevented the LA Library Tower plot?

 

[Chadman]

Turfgrass, I have stated a few times here that if I knew someone had information (not sure exactly how people can KNOW a person has info or not, but... ) that could save lives, then I really don't care too much myself - although that does not really follow what our country stands for and aspires to. In doing the things you describe, it does undermine our country and what it stands for, and it makes our country hypocritical when we expect a certain treatment of our people and then don't respect that treatment and do it ourselves.

My point on this - why I think it matters the most - is that if you cannot PROVE someone is a terrorist after several years of holding them, and even admit that, then you should not engage in these activities - under any circumstance. And I think we all agree that our country has done that. And I have a problem with that - because we hold other countries - and our own in our society of respecting and following the law - to that standard of proof.

The L.A. situation is just another example of how people who defend the practice use things - and fear - to justify their opinions, whether the situations are true, on point, or defendable. Most don't even care to check it out, really.

 

[Turfgrass]

Let?s just say you?re right for the sake of argument, mainly because I can?t prove the article is correct, but I don?t think we waterboarded the guy 183 times because someone was having his fun with him. (And if that is the case it would be wrong in every possible way)

I?m just saying if someone has the information that could save thousands of lives and if we have somebody in our custody who can tell us where that bomb is, and if you had a reasonable expectation that you could get that information from this guy, I?m for it.