Saving the Rich, Losing the Economy - a great read.

[DOGS THAT BARK]

I know you think your comments are of the "healthy" variety, Wayne - that's my point. You think it's healthy to only rip into the messenger and continue to spout your usual party line rhetoric:



The article had plenty of blame to go around and all you can do is tell how much you hate two liberal writers and say more of the same stuff as always. Then you ridicule me for pointing it out.

You continue to talk about the rich being productive and only mention those on welfare as being whores and parasites. Nice paintbrushing, you are at least consistent - and has little to do with the majority of the article.

What exactly is the conservative jobs plan again? Anything besides cutting taxes for the ultra rich? I'd like to see it, I know you're good at linking to things. Don't forget to show me how many of those ultra rich folks actually employ people other than their maids and yard help while you're at it. Because according to the numbers I've seen very few of the upper 1% employ people. They make a lot of money doing other things, not employing people. But again - any tangible ideas would be interesting to see.

Sorry Chad --the fair share/tax cuts for the rich--PC analogy drive me bonkers.

Any 1st grader can tell you if one person is paying 39% of wages and one pays 10 % or nothing--it's obvious who share is "unfair"

--seems every 6 months we have to bring the tax analogy out of the archives- It baffles me how many will let political agenda's skew their logic/common sense.

one more time--

How taxes work--from unknown author

I was having lunch with one of my favorite friends
last week - a very liberal college professor - and the
conversation turned to the government's recent round of tax cuts.

"I'm opposed to those tax cuts," the Professor
declared, "because they benefit the rich.
The rich get much more money back than ordinary
taxpayers like you and me and that's not fair."

"But the rich pay more in the first place," I
argued, "so it stands to reason they'd get more money back."

I could tell that my friend was unimpressed by this
meager argument.

So I said to him, let's put tax cuts in terms
everyone can understand:
Suppose that every day 10 men go to a restaurant
for dinner.
The bill for all ten comes to $100.

If it was paid the way we pay our taxes,
The first four men paid nothing;
The fifth paid $1;
The sixth paid $3;
The seventh $7;
The eighth $12;
The ninth $18.
The tenth man (the richest) paid $59.

The 10 men ate dinner in the restaurant every day
and seemed quite happy with the arrangement
until the owner threw them a curve.

Since you are all such good customers, he said, I'm
going to reduce the cost of your daily meal by $20.

Now, dinner for the 10 only costs $80. The first
four are unaffected. They still eat for free.
Can you figure out how to divide up the $20 savings
among the remaining six so that everyone gets his
fair share?

The men realize that $20 divided by 6 is $3.33, but
if they subtract that from everybody's share,
then the fifth man and the sixth man would end up
being paid to eat their meal.

The restaurant owner suggested that it would be
fair to reduce each man's bill by roughly the
same percentage, being sure to give each a break, and
he proceeded to work out the amounts each should
pay.

And so now:
Along with the first four, the fifth man
paid nothing,
The sixth pitched in $2,
The seventh paid $5,
The eighth paid $9,
The ninth paid $12,
Leaving the tenth man with a bill of $52
instead of $59.

Outside the restaurant, the men began to compare
their savings,
"I only got a dollar out of the $20," complained
the sixth man, pointing to the tenth, "and he got $7!"

"Yeah, that's right," exclaimed the fifth man. "I
only saved a dollar,too.
It's unfair that he got seven times more than me!"

"That's true," shouted the seventh man. "Why should
he get $7 back when I got only $2?
The wealthy get all the breaks!"

"Wait a minute," yelled the first four men. "We
didn't get anything at all. The system exploits the poor."

Then, the nine men surrounded the tenth man (the
richest one, paying the most) and beat him up.

The next night the richest man didn't show up for
dinner, so now the nine men sat down and ate without him.
But when it came time to pay the bill,
they discovered something very important. They
were $52 short!

And that, boys, girls and college professors, is
how America's tax system works.
The people who pay the highest taxes get
the most benefit from a tax reduction.
Tax them too much, attack them for
being wealthy, and they
just may not show up at the table any more.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Yep I know--end of topic-again
<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

 

[Trampled Underfoot]

Yep I know--end of topic-again
<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

I feel sorry for you.

 

[Chadman]

Sorry Chad --the fair share/tax cuts for the rich--PC analogy drive me bonkers.

Any 1st grader can tell you if one person is paying 39% of wages and one pays 10 % or nothing--it's obvious who share is "unfair"

Yep I know--end of topic-again

I've posted on this in at least two threads in the past couple of weeks how this (IMO) should be looked at in an overall perspective, not just how much % the people are paying in taxes. It's simply NOT the only way to look at it, and only presents half of the story. The other half is just as important, especially if you're talking about reducing the debt and those who pay little or nothing and what good that will do. Nobody has answered my posts or my questions, including you. So to say "end of topic" is pretty much a laugher for me, but I know you think you end threads by changing or avoiding the subject. Whatever you need to think, Wayne. Using your logic, I suppose I've ended two other threads that you were a part of, so I win... :0074

 

[ssd]

The tax code needs to be revised, Chad.

A flat or fair tax with a VAT tax based on consumption is the way to go.

Eliminating all the loopholes and deductions, etc.

Then, EVERYONE has skin in the game. From the person making $20k to the person making $2 million.

 

[Chadman]

Dogs:
Have to agree with you. I can't stand Krugman.

It is interesting. China is facing the the biggest bubble in the history of mankind in it's commercial real estate market. It may last 3 months or 10 years but it will blow. Big time.

Back in the 80's - Japan was hot and they were going to smack around the US economy. Today, Japan is still reeling in the throes of a 20 year recession. Now, China is the new poster child to supplant the US as top dog. Will they?

What happens to all those jobs when China implodes? They are a state -controlled economy and it isn't manageable. Where does those jobs go? Back here?

Just food for thought

ssd, I just wanted to comment on your post - I think it is a great observation. Very big picture, and more important in many ways than the smaller stuff we argue about here most of the time. I've been very concerned about China holding so much of our debt for a long time, but I don't think that advantage is holding true with all the troubles in the Euro countries. Your post is full of good conjecture - will the U.S. Companies pull jobs back here, or look for other countries where they can maximize their investment and lower their labor costs? Does that always pay off? Great concepts, and questions.

I know I've tangled with you on many occasions here, but I do appreciate your posts. They have a lot more economic value than mine in many cases... I try to learn here, although that has suffered greatly in the past couple of years. The consistent thing is we have to deal with so many bullshit lack of substance Youtube posts, and a dominance of fringe thoughts at times. My opinion, of course. Just wanted to commend your post - great food for thought there.

 

[Trampled Underfoot]

It is interesting. China is facing the the biggest bubble in the history of mankind in it's commercial real estate market. It may last 3 months or 10 years but it will blow. Big time.

Back in the 80's - Japan was hot and they were going to smack around the US economy. Today, Japan is still reeling in the throes of a 20 year recession. Now, China is the new poster child to supplant the US as top dog. Will they?

What happens to all those jobs when China implodes? They are a state -controlled economy and it isn't manageable. Where does those jobs go? Back here?

Just food for thought

While I think the US is on shaky ground, it is still in a more dominant position than China IMO. I really do not see China surviving as it is now. I would anticipate in the next 30 years you are going to see a lot of instability there. They should be happy just to maintain their position and try to keep that country together. There is a very large economic divide in that country.

 

[smurphy]

Seriously, Wayne, you can't back off the talking points and conservative agenda for one post, can you? There's plenty of blame to go around in this situation, despite your rabid refusal to admit any responsibility for conservative negatives. This article portrayed many angles of the problem - some liberal/democrat. Your response - it's always the liberals fault - no matter what.

I though this article could promote some healthy discussion - but I guess not. Too much to ask, I suppose, in here.

Great post.

 

[ssd]

Trampled and Chad:

My stream of consciousness goes here:
Why would China be buying our debt, to loan us money, so that we can build weapons, etc to fight them with?

It doesn't make sense - unless they just plan to destroy us economically by dumping all the US debt they hold and crippling us that way.

China will implode, IMHO. Can not continue the way it is going. Past 2 years they have been seriously cracking down on any rebellious movements and have imprisoned a ton of people. That can only work for so long when you consider the size of their population.

As for jobs coming back here? I would hope so but, I would have to gather that the next place to go to for cheap labor would be the African Continent once Asia is exhausted.

Do a search for ghost cities in China and see what comes up - it is amazing.

 

[Trampled Underfoot]

Do a search for ghost cities in China and see what comes up - it is amazing.

I never really thought about ghost cities. I will have to research that but there is a great divide in China. Most of the population is on the east coast. The wealth divide between the coast and the inland region is very high. I don't see how it remains as it is for another fifty years.

 

[ssd]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1339536/Ghost-towns-China-Satellite-images-cities-lying-completely-deserted.html

 

[smurphy]

Bottom line is that no matter which side you agree with, we are fucked either way. There is absolutely no way around it. We could lower taxes to zero and wages to $3.50/ hour and still cannot compete globally.

I see us becoming more like Brazil than anything else. A few very rich, a couple middle class folks, and the overwhelming majority struggling. Most public services will be privatized and thus only afforded to the wealthy. Our unreasonable hate of anything "socialized" only serves to eliminate compassion and fortify wealthy families that do nothing but entrench well for their undeserving offspring. There is nothing left for a productive society to keep churning and real opportunity ends up only existing for those who already have everything.

It's going to suck.

 

[Trench]

Bottom line is that no matter which side you agree with, we are fucked either way. There is absolutely no way around it. We could lower taxes to zero and wages to $3.50/ hour and still cannot compete globally.

I see us becoming more like Brazil than anything else. A few very rich, a couple middle class folks, and the overwhelming majority struggling. Most public services will be privatized and thus only afforded to the wealthy. Our unreasonable hate of anything "socialized" only serves to eliminate compassion and fortify wealthy families that do nothing but entrench well for their undeserving offspring. There is nothing left for a productive society to keep churning and real opportunity ends up only existing for those who already have everything.

It's going to suck.

Nicely put, Smurph.

I'd like to believe that our unreasonable hatred of anything socialized is merely a byproduct of talk radio, cable news and the blogosphere, and will burn itself out rather quickly. Unfortunately, the fight over healthcare reform and the current orchestrated attack on both public and private sector unions have proven that the corporatists intend to fight this battle to the bitter end and they don't take prisoners.