should records be erased for players found to use steroids ?

AR182

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i'm not talking about being accused of using steroids. i'm talking about the players who are proven to have used steroids.

imo, if a player is found to have used steroids his record should be erased. after all using steroids is cheating & that shows a bad image for baseball.

i would like to hear what others think about this.
 

pirate fan

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I agree with you 100%. These guys have tainted the game for their own personal greed and glory. I love baseball but the big money flying around and cheating by use of steroids really takes some of the fun out of it.:(
 

fletcher

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well so is having a nail file in your glove, or grease or skin lub stuck under the bill of cap, behind the ear, on the back of the neck in the back of the pants band, emmory board on isside of palm guard, sand paper in glove band or back of belt.

corked bat, bat shaving down then filled with foam. or filled with buck shot after hole drilled into top and then wood puddy over then sanded out, all kinds of cheating goes on and has and always will, just because you take the point does not mean you can still hit the ball out of the park, it only adds about 15 feet which is big but a corked bat or buck shot will add about 25 feet, so it has always gone on like i said and many guys in the hall admit the cheated pitcher will really say it more then hitter, the drug itself doesnot make it any different then cheating in other ways, people blow this up like it is new or something there has always been cheating in every sport and always will be so no you can't say the take away any records you would have to show it was done their who time, hell hank had loaded bats when he played he has talked about it so his should come down then also.

forget saying the juice made the record if one is ever reached because hitters and pitchers have always cheated and like i said a loaded bat goes futher then a loaded body add both together you have a hell of a extra boost, more hr's have been hit due to the fact the last 10 years because or tighter wound balls , better made bats and there is a big difference just get a ml bat from a guy who has about 4 doz made a year and test that bat against a guys in the minors who also has his bats made and she on testing machine which ball goes further and faster off the bat it is the ml bat, and the biggest change is the size of the parks have came down about 15 25 feet with the length of the fence. before in 70's this was the standard size park 335 down the lines 385 power allys 410-420 to center, before that and i played in 2 i can remember one in fl 1 in ga old time pro parks from the 30's they were 500 all the way around, now most yards are different but avg aboyt 325 down the line 370 pa and 400 to center that is on avg like i said each park is different in lay out, before in the 70's all the same and before that all the same.

you can't say they tainted the game shit it has always been tainted in some way just was not made a big deal of, but like i said a loaded bat made right which compines who make bats will load them for players go further then taking the point. the point will help you gain strength and lets muscles rehab faster from tear down but you have to prove a player did it all his life and not going to happen, pain pills and shots and dmso are used like candy but no one says anything about that. it is stupid just play the game, for every test and cheat , there will be away around it and another type of cheating able to be came up with.
 

Penguinfan

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Personally I think it stinks that they load up on roids to get an edge, but all the juice in the world will not help you hit a major league curve ball. I hate Barry Bonds for sure, but he is the most talented hitter in the game reguardless of how his head got 3 sizes bigger since he left Pittsburgh:eek: The records stand IMO.

Penguinfan
 

BleedDodgerBlue

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I agree with fletcher that no matter what you test for or illegal or not there are ways around everything in every sport. Even womens swimmers and cyclists cheat so why not baseball players. These guys are under enormous pressure to succeed by their agents, teams, and more importantly the public. Most will respond to this by saying yes they get tons of money to do what they do. Thats pretty much the point. Because of the wages they are paid they are under that much pressure to succeed. Its been going on forever in all sports, if not steroids then other ways to gain an edge or circumvent the rules. Hell even this controversy was good for the game in a way because all thats on peoples minds right now and all they are talking about at the water coolers is baseball. NBA and NHL are dead. I can't remember this much baseball talk in March in a long time.

The real question is How this is going to affect Brady Anderson's chances for the hall?? Will their be an asteriks next to his name when the voters vote??;)
 

gardenweasel

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imo

imo

using grease or a nail file can`t compare with putting 25 lbs of muscle on a top tier athlete by using drugs.....that others don`t use....that`s apples and oranges,imo...

you want to see what a real advantage that is?...check out the female version of "world`s strongest" contest on espn.....take a good look at what "supplements" do for them.....it`s an incredible advantage...

the kind of advantage that can change a 35 home run year into a 55 or 60 home run year....or maybe 70....

as a fellow(johnny demarco) said on another forum...


"The reason Bonds head is so big right now is he took human growth hormone. HGH is not a steroid. When mixed/stacked with steroids they will make you huge. A side effect of HGH use is a "giant head" which he does have. HGH is what allowed him to heal so quickly after surgery. HGH is incredible stuff for joints and tissue. HGH right now is undetectable in testing because your body makes it as well......

and now the race card has finally been played by bonds and ralph wiley....

as for the curve ball thing,nobody said the guy wasn`t a fantastic player....but,gimme a break,he doesn`t hit 70 without the dope....

..what does rodriguez do on the juice?

where does it end?
 
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pirate fan

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Yeah they cheat all over the place; sports, business, politices, yeah it goes on and everyone knows it. Doesn't mean it is right or acceptable.:nono: Unfortunately the kids of today see this in the world and it will just be something new and different in the next few years. I always competed with only my god given gifts, not that they were very good but. It's to bad you can't trust anyone anymore.:(
 

ctownguy

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Fletch, can't be the same side in this one. Being right behind you on the field it was my job to catch all those cheaters, with the nail files, vaseline, tacks, corked bats etc and it wasn't easy, esp in the minors.

But as gw stated it's apples and oranges to compare what can be condoned. The nail files etc is cheating and when caught they were thrown out of the game and fined by the league. But letting the juice flow is way out of line as to enhancing peformance for more than just a few games etc, especially when it comes to records.

Yes, baseball definitely takes more skill, but that's the exact reason these juicers should not be mentioned with the Babe or Hank Aaron and the rest that competed on a level playing field as far as enhancemnts go.

These false records should not be allowed, but don't hold your breath that it will ever happened.
 

fletcher

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It's not apples to oranges cheating is cheating, you can't make rules as to what type of cheating is ok and what is not, and talk about cheats JD is one of the biggest ones out there, would not believe a word ever spoken out of his mouth.

Like I said before a loaded bat adds more on the ball then juice, hitting a homerun has little to do with strength it is power which is 2 totaly different things. powerhas to do with bat speed having extra strength will help some but if not done right you will lose the most importent factor which is bat speed, when a scout looks for players they look for power not strength, if that was the case then you would have 300+ pound linemen hitting baseballs and golf balls 600 feet.

Bottom line you can't say one tupe of cheating is ok and another type is not, to me a loaded bat is more cheating then juice.
 

fletcher

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C knowing how long you did your job would you at least say that power is more then strength? and ball parks have changed also hell they would never hit them where the babe played or hank that many and balls were not throwen out for a scuff so they also got soft as they game went on. I just think this is all blowen up every sport the juice hell track stars are some of the worst and so are fb players, yeah nfl has a great testing program, for every 1 they catch 25 float right on by and same as in hoops , different juice does different things does not all make you a big mass of muscle, can do all kinds of stuff just need to take what is geared for your sport, i will bend some on the apples to oranges but not much, people act like this is all new , it's not been running wild since 80's on and will always be there and more in fb and track then any other sports, sprinters are some of the worst.
 

ctownguy

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Fletch, I agree on the equipment being used, the balls and size of ball parks etc and agree that using drugs is nothing new, speed, cocaine and all the rest. It's a tough call taking everything in account. It's just IMHO the juice really gives a player a big big edge.

As you stated, look at it in track and how it enhanced their performances and they have taken medals away becasue of it. Also remember back in the days of the russian and east germany womens teams and how they looked and competed like men, once again should have never been condoned but it was.

Guess we will disagree on this one, but it won't matter, as I feel your take on it will prevail, MLB will not be taking any records away from anyone.

Can you imagine telling Barry Bonds his HR record is null and void, I don't think so:nono:

Hell, MLB can't even get a drug testing policy past the players union that would be effective, what a joke:shrug:
 
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djv

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Fletch it seems some of these new ball parks add to home runs. I dont know if the power alleys are shorter or what it is. Also if drugs dont help your hand eye coordination. Witch in baseball is so important when hitting. I guess the power factor could be enough. But BB is not like FB or Track where I can see the drugs helping much more. But you are correct. After playing the game as we did. We do know theres been lots of little things going on for years. And it didn't just start in 1950. Some get caught and some don't. But the HR record is one everyone seems to want to protect. Dam good thing they don't use those metal bats. Some infielder might get killed. Talking about those bats they come along way. I remember those first ones thet bent. What they have now I understand cost around 400 bucks each and do not bend.
 
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JT

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Should pitching records from the early 20th century have a asterick by it? Pitchers like Cy Young used the spitter plus they used the same damn ball all game long. Imagine trying to hit a wet brown scuffed ball late in the game. Don't get me wrong, I think it is a joke seeing guys like Brett Boone turn into freaks that go from 20 a year to 40 but fletcher is right, cheating has always played a part.
 

gardenweasel

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that`s funny

that`s funny

to see how many condone cheating......just because people will inevitably try.....

i see a few that jumped all over clinton for lying...a little hypocritical.....maybe,in this country it`s just accepted practice now.....

very sad to see people lose their moral compass and just give in.......

i know...it can`t be proven....:rolleyes:
 
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SixFive

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Re: that`s funny

Re: that`s funny

gardenweasel said:
to see how many condone cheating......just because people will inevitably try.....

i see a few that jumped all over clinton for lying...a little hypocritical.....maybe,in this country it`s just accepted practice now.....

very sad to see people lose their moral compass and just give in.......

i know...it can`t be proven....:rolleyes:

not condoning, but as long as it is accepted why penalize 1 person when there are many others doing the same thing? Answer is to start getting tougher and eradicate the problem. Also agree that cheating is cheating is cheating no matter what the cheat was. I think it's cheating for the players to blot out the lines on the batter's box. Why even have a batter's box when the leadoff man on every team blots it out in the first at bat???? Is that not a form of cheating?

PS Clinton was the president of the USA. These guys are playing a game.
 

ELVIS

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bonds would hit the hr's wo the juice. he hit them when he was skinny. it is a fact that muscle developement should prolong your career. so you cannot fault him for weight lifting. bonds is walked more than any other player and he typically does not swing at terrible pitches (as mcgwire used to :mad: ). he is stoked, but i do not think it akes away that he is so damn good. what about griffey ? hr hitter and not very big. the juice has helped bonds to an extent, but his dedication and hard work are the keys to his success. too many players have been great long ball hitters (who were not juiced) ie. darryl strawberry. maybe it was the cocaine that helped him hit 50 ? next the heavy caffeine abusers will be jacking 60 hrs. again, not saying the substances he has taken have not helped, but a low fat, high protein diet would help any athlete trying to build muscle. typically the male metabolism slows in the thirties and it easier to gain mass in these years. check the number of body builders that peak in their 30's. maybe bonds did take some things that are illegal, but that does not tarnish his ability, longevity, and dedication to his sport.:nooo:
 

gardenweasel

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guys...

guys...

it`s not o.k. to lie or cheat.....it`s all bad...regardless of your station in life ...or your occupation....that`s my point...if you have integrity and you are fair,you know you can`t pick and choose your spots....it has to be across the board....everybody or nobody....


...but fudging the lines in a batters box and doping yourself to add 30 pounds of muscle to get an unfair advantage......is that a legitimate comparison?... no fair person could argue that one...


yes bonds may hit 35 or 40 taters as the "normal" barry....not 70.....the records...isn`t that whats at issue?...funny how these numbers started to ring up as soon as guys started to look like linebackers instead of baseball players....coincidence?...c`mon...


i`m not just skewering bonds...but he received the stuff from balco.......that put him in the crosshairs....i doubt he gave it to his spouse...

he didn`t know what it was?.....those bad guys from balco really put one over on barry and the boys......million dollar athletes not knowing what they are putting in their body`s?....yeah.....i believe that.

....

if it`s ok. with you guys,fine.....i`m no clinton lover....never liked or voted for the guy...thought what he did was scummy.......but,liars and cheaters are just that...liars and cheaters...regardless of their occupation......

doping is bigtime cheating.....everybody knows it....that`s why there is testing...everywhere except baseball,that is.....

i really shouldn`t even be arguing the point...baseball likes it like this......that`s why baseball sucks...
 
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fletcher

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see that is where you are wrong the fans like it that way, they want to see runs, me i like to see great pitched games, but when runs were down so was att. and many changes were made, smaller parls, different in lenght to weight of bat, lowering of the mound all because runs sale and 2-1 does not, not going to win with you on this but like I said you have way more drugs in fb and track then you do in baseball, fb is fillied with guys living on pain pills and shots to play and your line men all and i say all juice and it starts in college, man has not growen in last 20 years look at line men and 300 pounders then and look now, the juice has growen and boxing it is used also, testing is so eay to mask depending on what you take and how smart you are , to get caught on a juice test you really have to be stupid not hard to take a few other things and 1 shot once a week to throw test off, it is not going to change so no sense thinking it will in any sport.

I cheated most of my whole time from college on and that is what you nust do to get up to the next guy, skills will only get you so far. look at nomar and his hruns why he played at ga.tech and had alum bat and look how he hits them now, you don't have to be big to be doing juice or cheating, everybat he owns i will bet you 1 in 3 is loaded and you have to cut bat open to find out xray does not cyt it with how it is done any hid.
 
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