STUPID AND JUST UNREAL

[Big Daddy]

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Posted on Wed, Nov. 24, 2004


Vang: Hunter shot first

Suspect gives account at odds with one offered by survivor

BY KEVIN HARTER, PHILLIP PI?A and ALEX FRIEDRICH

Pioneer Press


HAYWARD, Wis. ? The man suspected of killing six deer hunters and wounding two others in northwestern Wisconsin says that he didn't fire the first shot and that as a group of hunters surrounded him Sunday to order him off private land, they used racial slurs and swore at him.

According to documents filed Tuesday by the Sawyer County Sheriff's Department, Chai Soua Vang, 36, of St. Paul told authorities the morning after the shootings that he was hunting and inadvertently stumbled onto private property. He said a man with a rifle told him to leave and he was walking away when an ugly confrontation got uglier.

"Vang observed the subject with the rifle point the rifle at Vang. Vang stated that Vang immediately dropped to a crouch position and the subject shot at Vang and the bullet hit the ground 30 to 40 feet behind Vang," the suspect is quoted telling a sheriff's deputy and an FBI agent.

Chai Soua Vang told authorities he returned fire, shooting the man with the rifle and others who were unarmed, according to the statement. When the shooting stopped, five people were dead, a sixth was mortally wounded and two others suffered gunshot wounds from which they are expected to recover.

Chai Soua Vang, a former military hospital records clerk who qualified as a sharpshooter in the California National Guard, was unhurt. He was taken into custody without incident by a conservation officer about five hours after the shootings.

Chai Soua Vang's account differs significantly from the version given to investigators by one of the surviving victims, which had the suspect firing first and no mention of racial epithets. Investigators on Tuesday sought more details from witnesses, including six or seven other people who were in the same hunting party as the eight who got shot.

The investigation, said Sawyer County Sheriff James Meier, "is still in its infancy."

The "probable cause statement" filed Tuesday does not charge Chai Soua Vang in the shootings. It says authorities believe he was responsible.

In a hearing Tuesday, Sawyer County Circuit Court Judge Norman Yackel set bail at $2.5 million for the Minnesota father of six, a naturalized U.S. citizen who works as a truck driver. He remained in the Sawyer County Jail in Hayward, and the judge scheduled a court appearance for Nov. 30, at which Chai Soua Vang is expected to be formally charged by the Wisconsin attorney general's office.

Authorities said they were considering filing six counts of first-degree intentional homicide and two counts of first-degree attempted intentional homicide.

Chai Soua Vang was not present at the bail hearing, and Meier said security was one of the reasons. Although there had been no direct threats on the suspect's life, he said, the sheriff's department has gotten "prank" e-mails from across the country.

County law enforcement officials said Chai Soua Vang declined to request a lawyer before giving his statement Monday, but he agreed late Tuesday afternoon to be represented by public defenders James McLaughlin, Gerald Wright and Martin Jarvis.

McLaughlin said the public defender's office had been trying since Monday morning to talk to Chai Soua Vang but had been denied access till Tuesday afternoon.

The shootings occurred on the second morning of Wisconsin's nine-day deer-hunting season, and the victims were all from around Rice Lake, a town of 8,200 about 80 miles northeast of the Twin Cities. They were members of a hunting party staying in a cabin on 80 acres of land co-owned by Robert Crotteau, who ran a local concrete company, and one of his business partners, Terry Willers.

Crotteau, 42, was among the dead, as was his 20-year-old son, Joseph Crotteau; lumberyard manager Allan Laski, 43; flooring installer Mark Roidt, 28; and Willers' daughter, Jessica Willers, 27.

Dennis Drew, 55, a car salesman who was critically injured with an abdominal wound, died Monday evening at St. Joseph's Hospital in Marshfield.

Terry Willers, 47, remained in fair condition Tuesday at St. Joseph's Hospital. Lauren Hesebeck, 48 ? brother-in-law and co-worker of Drew ? had been hospitalized in Rice Lake but was released Monday night.

 

[Big Daddy]

As shocked residents of Rice Lake prepared for the first of the funerals, now set for Friday, some victims' families assigned someone to coordinate media requests, turned down interviews with local reporters, and scheduled appearances for today on the network morning news shows.

"They are having people show up at their back doors, their front doors, bothering their neighbors, and they'd like it to all just go away," said Jennifer Greshowak, director of community relations for Lakeview Medical Center, who was coordinating media requests for the Drew and Hesebeck families. "This has been very hard on the families. They'd like the community and the public to have the information, and then they'd like some privacy."

Members of the community were also giving out blaze-orange ribbons to remember the victims.

As news of Chai Soua Vang's version of events spread, residents questioned whether local hunters would yell racial epithets at a stranger. Marlene Arnold, who runs a gas station in Rice Lake, said that while the region remains predominantly white, there have been a number of new immigrants, including Hmong, moving into the area in recent years.

She said the area's economy relies on hunters and tourists throughout the year, so it is hard to believe race could play into the tragedy.

"The question out there is, Why?" she said. "It's about 'Why did he do it?' It's not about 'Why did a Hmong man do it?' "

The four-page statement filed in court Tuesday offers statements from Hesebeck and Chai Soua Vang, and while their stories contain some similarities, there are also major differences.

This much appears undisputed: Chai Soua Vang had been searching for some public land to hunt on Sunday morning and somehow wound up on an 80-acre plot of land owned by Crotteau and Willers. He found a deer stand in a tree, climbed into it and waited.

About 15 minutes later, Willers happened by and spotted Vang.

"The Asian male was confronted by Terry Willers and told by Willers to leave the property," the court statement says. With his walkie-talkie, Willers radioed the rest of the hunters at their cabin, about a quarter of a mile away, and told them he had told the stranger to leave and was going to wait to make sure he did so.

Hesebeck told investigators that at this point he, Robert and Joseph Crotteau, Drew and Roidt left the cabin to join Willers.

 

[Big Daddy]

Hesebeck reported that when they arrived at the scene, there was "another verbal exchange with the Asian male." One of the men noted Chai Soua Vang's deer license number (Wisconsin requires hunters to wear their numbers on their backs) and told the man that "law enforcement was going to be called."

Chai Soua Vang started walking away and after about 40 yards, he appeared to remove the telescopic sight from his rifle, turned and began shooting, according to Hesebeck's version. Willers was struck first, and returned fire.

Hesebeck said that Drew and Roidt were the next ones wounded, and that he tried to hide behind an all-terrain vehicle but the assailant moved around the ATV and shot him in the shoulder.

Crotteau and his son ran from the scene and Vang pursued them and shot them both, Hesebeck said. Although wounded, Hesebeck radioed the cabin for help and an unidentified hunter soon arrived and took away Willers, who had been shot in the neck. Hesebeck said the suspect then appeared back in the area of initial contact and said something like "One of you f- - - - -s are still alive." Hesebeck said he fired at the assailant, "but is unsure how many times."

According to authorities, the morning after Chai Soua Vang was arrested, he was asked if he wanted to give a statement to Sawyer County sheriff's investigator Gary Gillis and FBI Special Agent Ken Mammoser and initially declined, asking for a lawyer.

But moments later, he reportedly sent word to Gillis through a jailer that he wanted to waive his right to have an attorney present and make a statement.

In that statement, Chai Soua Vang said he had gotten lost, found a deer stand near a swamp, believed he was on public land and climbed into the stand.

When Willers approached him and told him he was on private land, Chai Soua Vang replied that he didn't know it was private and that he hadn't seen any "No Trespassing" signs. (Authorities have said the property was posted.)

Chai Soua Vang said he climbed down from the stand and started to leave. Two ATVs approached, "with 5 or 6 guys on them," according to the statement, and the group confronted Chai Soua Vang.

Again Chai Soua Vang was asked why he was on private land, and again he said he wasn't aware of his mistake, the statement said. At this point, he claimed, the men began surrounding him, and said that one of the men "that Vang thought to be the owner then started calling Vang names like 'Gook, chink, f- - -ing Asian."

Then, Chai Soua Vang said he was "told to get off the f- - -ing property and never come back." He said one of the men wrote down his license number and said they were going to call the authorities, and some other members of the group began calling him more racial slurs and swearing at him.

Chai Soua Vang said he got about 20 yards away and turned and noticed that one of the men ? thought to be Willers ? had a rifle, which he took off his shoulder. As he walked a few more feet, the man with the rifle pointed it at him and fired, with the bullet hitting the ground 30 to 40 feet behind him.

Chai Soua Vang said he took the scope off his rifle and fired twice at the man and he fell. The others in the group ran toward the ATVs, and Chai Soua Vang said he kept firing and two or three others fell to the ground.

The suspect then reportedly told investigators he continued to chase the group, shooting one unarmed man in the back. Three more people approached on ATVs, and Chai Soua Vang allegedly turned his reversible blaze-orange coat inside-out so that its camouflage pattern was on the outside. He also said he reloaded his magazine with "5 or 6 bullets," but didn't fire at the approaching men because they were armed.

He said he saw another ATV approach with two people (later identified as Jessica Willers and Laski) and the driver was armed. The driver leveled his weapon with one hand while keeping the other on the handlebar, and Chai Soua Vang claimed that he fired "3 or 4 times" and the two people on the ATV fell to the ground.

The statement says Chai Soua Vang then claimed he returned to the area where the shooting had started and saw a man standing in the trail. "Vang stated that Vang yelled 'You're not dead yet?' Vang stated that Vang shot one more time in the direction of this man but doesn't know if he hit the man or not," the statement said.

Chai Soua Vang continued running "and did not return," according to the statement. "Vang stated that at one point while running Vang decided that he did not want to shoot anybody else so Vang threw his remaining ammunition into a swamp."

When he was taken into custody by the conservation officer, he was carrying an SKS semiautomatic rifle.

The statement says that the only weapon found at the scene of the shooting was a rifle located near Roidt's body.

 

[no pepper]

Authorities are investigating and think this guy is possibly involved with a shooting death of a man in 2001 during the hunting season. The man killed was confroting a tresspasser and shot twice in the back. Asian men were witnessed near that shooting in a truck matching Vangs vehicle description.

 

[fletcher]

I know lot of them are in use OS, I prefer my 30-30 if thick where i am at or 30-06 if long range and clearer, my point is he had a 20 round clip there is no need or use for that in hunting, hell if I am in md hunting with my shot gun I have to put a plug in it can only hold 3 all mine hold more. Any type of rifle used for hunting should not hold that many rounds. If it is a higher caliber type gun a 22 only holds i think 18 reg rounds at the most. The 20 and 30 round clips you can buy for this type gun is stupid and not used for hunting. he had a 20 round clip. Like I said before if you can't take it down with 2 shots for a clean kill then you should not be shooting at it anyway.

 

[THE KOD]

fletcher

who gives two chits about how many rounds his gun held, this Vang guy killed 6 people.

:shrug: :shrug:

 

[fletcher]

Because if the gun did not hold that many rounds you would not of had 6 people dead and 2 others shot, I am sure he did not hit each person with every single shot he fired. So if he would not of had that many rounds to squeeze off maybe some of those dead would still be here that is why.

Thought you were a little smarter then that Scott.

 

[THE KOD]

fletcher

maybe he had two clips

 

[THE KOD]

When Willers approached him and told him he was on private land, Chai Soua Vang replied that he didn't know it was private and that he hadn't seen any "No Trespassing" signs. (Authorities have said the property was posted.)

Chai Soua Vang said he climbed down from the stand and started to leave. Two ATVs approached, "with 5 or 6 guys on them," according to the statement, and the group confronted Chai Soua Vang.

Again Chai Soua Vang was asked why he was on private land, and again he said he wasn't aware of his mistake, the statement said. At this point, he claimed, the men began surrounding him, and said that one of the men "that Vang thought to be the owner then started calling Vang names like 'Gook, chink, f- - -ing Asian."

Then, Chai Soua Vang said he was "told to get off the f- - -ing property and never come back." He said one of the men wrote down his license number and said they were going to call the authorities, and some other members of the group began calling him more racial slurs and swearing at him.

Chai Soua Vang said he got about 20 yards away and turned and noticed that one of the men ? thought to be Willers ? had a rifle, which he took off his shoulder. As he walked a few more feet, the man with the rifle pointed it at him and fired, with the bullet hitting the ground 30 to 40 feet behind him.
..................................................................................

This is probably pretty close to what happened.

I am not condoning Vang in any way as he sounds like he has a history of violence.

But this type of bullying that is unnecesary is what gets people killed. Its the old school mentality of my land, get off or we shoot you. N......., chi......., cong, wong, etc....

when will people learn

 

[Chanman]

Not to intrude, but KOD- this guy's punishment can't be severe enough. Name-calling by unarmed ppl including a girl. This is a extremely sad story and this individual can't hide behind his race baiting or ignorance. Unfortunately 6'5" already saw this coming. I hope to GOD that M.Moore doesn't try to capitalize on this as it sounds like his style. ;-(

 

[bjfinste]

Not to intrude, but KOD- this guy's punishment can't be severe enough. Name-calling by unarmed ppl including a girl. This is a extremely sad story and this individual can't hide behind his race baiting or ignorance. Unfortunately 6'5" already saw this coming. I hope to GOD that M.Moore doesn't try to capitalize on this as it sounds like his style. ;-(

Well IF... and that's a very big f*cking "if"... they actually did shoot at him as Scott's post indicates, they weren't "unarmed"...

That being said, I agree, the punishment can't be servere enough.

A interesting sidenote (at least pertaining to my life) to this story... the hospital that the victims were initially brought to, Lakeview Medical Center in Rice Lake, was the hospital I was born in. About 10-15 years ago or so (complete estimation), the doctor who delivered me was killed when he was driving home one day, and a stray bullet from a deer hunter came through his car's window and hit him. Some bad hunting karma in that area, I guess.

 

[Chanman]

Don't know where you're comin from bjf. I guess 'they' were going to shoot Vang in the back so that makes his shooting self defense including running down & killing unarmed ppl.
Sorry I replied.

 

[bjfinste]

Don't know where you're comin from bjf. I guess 'they' were going to shoot Vang in the back so that makes his shooting self defense including running down & killing unarmed ppl.
Sorry I replied.

Chan- you may have misread my post. All I was saying was that you were inaccurate in saying they were unarmed *if* they had actually shot at him first.

You must have missed the part of my post where I agreed with you, saying:

"That being said, I agree, the punishment can't be servere enough."

Certainly not trying to justify anything the guy did. I'm just a stickler for facts, and if, and like I said, it's a big, big "if", they shot at him first, then they weren't unarmed. That would, in no way, make what he did OK. Just don't say they were unarmed.

 

[Chanman]

Thanx for explaining. I just didn't know what you were getting at and didn't want to argue. :thumb:

This is just a lose/lose situation for those involved. Don't know any good that could come from it.

 

[Big Daddy]

For those interested, I will try to post updates.




Posted on Thu, Nov. 25, 2004


Investigators hit case hard

Similarities to unsolved 2001 slaying noted

BY KEVIN HARTER and PHILLIP PI?A

Pioneer Press


HAYWARD, Wis. ? Investigators returned Wednesday to the scene of Sunday's deer hunter killings, hoping to sort out two versions of how six people died.

The state attorney general's office took over the case, meanwhile, restricting information from the Sawyer County sheriff and getting one of the survivors to cancel a news conference.

Charges were not expected to be filed in the case until Monday at the earliest.

Sheriff Jim Meier said investigators interviewed survivors of the shootings again and also questioned other members of the hunting party who hadn't been interviewed previously. They were trying to sort out variations between the accounts of one wounded hunters and suspect Chai Soua Vang of St. Paul.

Meier also said investigators returned to the shooting scene 90 miles northeast of the Twin Cities to look for more forensic evidence, but he wouldn't divulge the results of any of those efforts or of autopsies done on the victims.

Security concerns have prompted court officials to hold Chai Soua Vang's court appearance next week in the Sawyer County Jail instead of the county courthouse.

Meanwhile, authorities in nearby Clark County said they would like to question Chai Soua Vang to see if he knows anything about the unsolved shooting death of another deer hunter in 2001.

A Clark County sheriff's deputy said last weekend's shootings had vague similarities to the death three years ago of Jim Southworth, 37, of Medford, Wis. Southworth's body was found on family land Nov. 24, 2001, a day after he had gone deer hunting by himself.

"We're not considering Mr. Vang a suspect. We're considering him a possible witness," said Chief Deputy Jim Backus of the Clark County Sheriff's Department in Neillsville.

Several possible similarities mark Southworth's death and Sunday's shootings near the town of Meteor in Sawyer County:

? Clark County investigators theorize that Southworth, who ran a cheese company in Gilman, had a confrontation with another hunter who trespassed on his family's land ? the same circumstance that allegedly sparked last weekend's shootings.

? Southworth was shot twice in the back. Some of the victims in Sunday's shootings had also been shot in the back.

? Witnesses in the Clark County case said they saw three Asian males standing near a pickup in the vicinity about the time Southworth is believed to have been shot. Chai Soua Vang owns a midsize pickup, and authorities said he had gone to Sawyer County last weekend with some friends to hunt but had become lost on his own.

On Wednesday, Rusk County Sheriff's Department investigators found and interviewed three of Chai Soua Vang's friends who came with him last weekend from the Twin Cities. Officials said not all of them were hunters, but authorities refused to comment further.

Bartz said that although Chai Soua Vang held a nonresident hunting license in Wisconsin in 2001, authorities were having to manually check thousands of records to see if he reported shooting any deer in Clark County that year.

Wisconsin Attorney General Peg Lautenschlager said Wednesday that the state's Department of Justice would file charges against Chai Soua Vang on Monday "at the earliest."

Lautenschlager's office took over the case after Sawyer County District Attorney Thomas E. Van Roy requested a special prosecutor.

Chai Soua Vang, 36, is being held in the Sawyer County Jail in Hayward on $2.5 million bond.

All the victims were from the Rice Lake area. The dead were: Robert Crotteau, 42; his son Joseph Crotteau, 20; Allan Laski, 43; Mark Roidt, 28; Dennis Drew, 55; and Jessica Willers, 27.

Willers' father, Terry Willers, 47, was wounded but discharged late Wednesday from St. Joseph's Hospital in Marshfield. Lauren Hesebeck, 48, was also wounded but was released from the Rice Lake hospital Monday.

Hesebeck has been interviewed by investigators. He retained a media "coordinator," who had scheduled a news conference Wednesday to give his first public account of the shootings. But the event was canceled without explanation.

It appears investigators are now trying to reconcile two versions of the shooting, and they have renewed their search for physical evidence that might tend to support or disprove one or the other.

According to Hesebeck, Willers and the other hunters confronted Chai Soua Vang after he had trespassed on their property. He was told to leave, began walking away and then turned and fired on the hunters, some of whom were unarmed.

 

[Big Daddy]

In a statement to a sheriff's deputy the morning after the shootings, Chai Soua Vang claimed that after he was told to leave, he was surrounded by several hunters who began yelling racial slurs at him.

Chai Soua Vang was born in Laos, is a naturalized U.S. citizen and served a stint in the California National Guard.

Chai Soua Vang claimed Willers fired the first shot. In the statement, he said he returned fire, but he also conceded that he shot victims in the back and that some victims were unarmed.

On Wednesday, hunters in Wisconsin's north woods continued to react with dismay about the weekend's shootings. Some said they doubted the suspect's account. People in the area grow up hunting and they are familiar with each other, the woods and the rules of hunting, said John Kristensen of Birchwood, a hunter for some 40 years.

He said he can't believe a local hunter would ever fire first at another human. It's not in their nature, he said.

Meanwhile, in a tribute to Sunday's victims, city crews in Rice Lake decorated utility poles throughout downtown with big hunter's-blaze-orange bows, along with traditional Christmas decorations.

And in Minnesota, Kanabec County Sheriff Steve Schulz confirmed that Chai Soua Vang owns 40 acres of hunting property in Brook Park, Minn., near Hinckley. He said sheriff's officials went to the cabin Wednesday to investigate at the request of Wisconsin authorities but found nothing.

He added that Chai Soua Vang had not been cited for trespassing or any other violations in the county. KSTP-TV said he purchased it in October 2003.

In central Wisconsin's Green Lake County, the sheriff's office reported Wednesday that Chai Soua Vang and another man were ticketed for trespassing in April 2002 while hunting there during the wild-turkey season.

A report said that the two were spotted trespassing at Badger Mining in Berlin, and an employee called the sheriff's office. The men, who had a permit to hunt on adjacent land, pleaded guilty and got $244 citations, but a Web site for state court records indicates Chai Soua Vang's citation wasn't paid.

This report includes information from the Associated Press.

HMONG SET UP RELIEF FUND

The Twin Cities Hmong community has established a relief fund for the survivors Sunday's fatal shootings in northwestern Wisconsin and the families of the victims.

The Hmong 18 Council, in partnership with several Hmong community leaders and organizations, set up the fund to show the community's solidarity and sympathy to the victims' families.

"As a community, our hearts go out to the families whose loved ones were wounded or killed during this horrible tragedy," said Vue Chu, a spokesman for the Hmong 18 Council, a St. Paul nonprofit comprised of representatives from the 18 Hmong clans.

Anyone wishing to contribute to the fund can send donations to the Hmong Community Support Fund for Wisconsin Hunting Victims and Survivors, University Bank, 200 W. University Ave., St. Paul, MN 55103.

IN RICE LAKE

The Rice Lake Hunters' Survivors and Victims Fund has also been established locally. Contributions can be directed to Dairy State Bank, 16 S. Main St., Rice Lake, WI

 

[Chanman]

http://graphics.jsonline.com/graphics/news/img/nov04/statement112304edits01.pdf

 

[vyrus858]

I don't care who calls you what, you dont't KILL THEM to make up for your pride being poked...Its amazing huh, it's like you see more and more heartless souls everyday

 

[ocelot]

Vang obviously wigged out though I find his version more believable - not that it will help his cause.

 

[fletcher]

I am sure he is telling the truth and knowing lot of hunters and haveing seen the backwards type clan hunters not kkk type clan but stupid group clan type, I am also willing to bet a shot was fired at him first, but does not matter maybe it would of if he shot 1 and killed them he could of got mansluter maybe, but he is screwed and it is his fault, he tracked the others down, but like i said I have seen and heard lot of stories about hunters even by accident going onto a hunting camp privite, these people get testy, not like the farm house and farmer you ask if it is ok to hunt, these who own privite camps and clubs can get quite nasty even to someone who is white and wondered on land by mistake from another part of the woods.

He can say what ever he wants and even if he was shot at first he is gone for life, no way he can use he flipped out had flash backs or self deff to many others were killed and tracked down to kill them, and if they were shot in the back that will be all she worte.