? U.S. Supreme Court rules Martin can use golf cart
- Thread starter Neemer
- Start date
I gotta disagree with the Court big time on that one. I have a law degree and I read the Act, I still don't see how the Court ruled the way they did.
The held that a cart WOULD fundamentally change the game, but it was STILL a violation of the WDA.
Very odd.
I have nothing against Casey, I wish him nothing but the best. But that's a terrible decision and sets a terrible precedent. Walking is a fundamental part of a golf. I had to pull out a tourney because I sprained the arch of my foot playing basketball. It didn't effect my swing, but I couldn't walk the course.
The precedent is terrible. It's a very slight exception the Court held. So basically, Casey can have a cart, but if a player has a bad back, they still must walk. I feel bad for the kid, but it's an athletic competition.
If Casey was a baseball player (Casey at bad, I know) he wouldn't get use of a cart to get to first. Don't dismiss that analogy as trivial -- it's identical. Walking is just as integral to golf as running is to baseball.
The held that a cart WOULD fundamentally change the game, but it was STILL a violation of the WDA.
Very odd.
I have nothing against Casey, I wish him nothing but the best. But that's a terrible decision and sets a terrible precedent. Walking is a fundamental part of a golf. I had to pull out a tourney because I sprained the arch of my foot playing basketball. It didn't effect my swing, but I couldn't walk the course.
The precedent is terrible. It's a very slight exception the Court held. So basically, Casey can have a cart, but if a player has a bad back, they still must walk. I feel bad for the kid, but it's an athletic competition.
If Casey was a baseball player (Casey at bad, I know) he wouldn't get use of a cart to get to first. Don't dismiss that analogy as trivial -- it's identical. Walking is just as integral to golf as running is to baseball.
I'm happy for Casey....You will have pros and cons about this,everyone has there own opinion and can voice it here or anywhere but as time goes on seeing him on the course in a cart will be second nature and soon forgotten......
If and when he does win a tournament it will be scrutinized because of this. That goes for others that lost on that long, hot sunday when Mr. Martin is as fresh as spring chicken. I do feel for the guy but he SHOULD not get preferential treatment.
[This message has been edited by dogday (edited 05-29-2001).]
[This message has been edited by dogday (edited 05-29-2001).]
The PGA is archaic.
Casey was born with this disability.
Allowing him a cart is the very LEAST they should do.
I think spectators should be allowed (and encouraged) to set off firecrackers (only during the downswing)in both practice and tournament rounds.
[This message has been edited by buddy (edited 05-29-2001).]
Casey was born with this disability.
Allowing him a cart is the very LEAST they should do.
I think spectators should be allowed (and encouraged) to set off firecrackers (only during the downswing)in both practice and tournament rounds.
[This message has been edited by buddy (edited 05-29-2001).]
my ankles and knees are shot from years of sports abuse. my orthopod tells me i would easily qualify for a handicapped parking permit if i wanted one (i don't). but i was thinking that i would really like to try out for the olympic highjump team and if i could use one of those little trampolines that cheerleaders use i'm thinking i could get my tired old ass up there. look out usoc, i'm suing.
bonovox, haven't read the full opinion but from the synopsis i saw my understanding was that the majority rejected the pga's argument that walking is an integral part of the game, with stevens, the majority author, stating that the essence of the game is shotmaking. wonder when the last time was when he walked 18?
bonovox, haven't read the full opinion but from the synopsis i saw my understanding was that the majority rejected the pga's argument that walking is an integral part of the game, with stevens, the majority author, stating that the essence of the game is shotmaking. wonder when the last time was when he walked 18?
Let him ride the dam cart. But on Sunday when all those other fine golfers will be all worn out. Make it even. Just have him in all black wool clothing. And he must tee it up 20 yrds back in special t-box. Guys Not sure what the odds are. I don't think he will win ever. Maybe one of those side shows But never against the big guys. This will die out in two years.
A tough decision for the High Court, but one they got right, IMO. The one thing that has impressed me about this whole situation has been the class shown by both sides.
Guys like Nicklaus testified that the cart would be an unfair advantage-- but that they had nothing against Casey Martin. The PGA itself called Martin today to let him know that they support him-- class all around.
I have a friend who is missing his left leg below the knee. He has a prosthetic he wears on the golf course, but it only allows him to play 18 holes every 3rd day or so... if he rides a cart when he plays. He is a stratch golfer who has won numerious tournaments.
When all this started w/Martin, I asked him one day what his feelings were. He told me that he thought that there should be an execption made for Martin, and that he hoped he would get the chance to play.
My arguement about the cart is look at the Senior Tour. These men are only 50 years old, but they are allowed carts. And, they only play three rounds. If the seniors had to always walk and played four rounds-- then I could understand the PGAs' arguements.
A complicated situation to be sure, but its probably not going to matter much-- because Martin is struggling in golf's minor leagues, and I don't see anyone else with a disability out there thats good enough to play on the tour.
Guys like Nicklaus testified that the cart would be an unfair advantage-- but that they had nothing against Casey Martin. The PGA itself called Martin today to let him know that they support him-- class all around.
I have a friend who is missing his left leg below the knee. He has a prosthetic he wears on the golf course, but it only allows him to play 18 holes every 3rd day or so... if he rides a cart when he plays. He is a stratch golfer who has won numerious tournaments.
When all this started w/Martin, I asked him one day what his feelings were. He told me that he thought that there should be an execption made for Martin, and that he hoped he would get the chance to play.
My arguement about the cart is look at the Senior Tour. These men are only 50 years old, but they are allowed carts. And, they only play three rounds. If the seniors had to always walk and played four rounds-- then I could understand the PGAs' arguements.
A complicated situation to be sure, but its probably not going to matter much-- because Martin is struggling in golf's minor leagues, and I don't see anyone else with a disability out there thats good enough to play on the tour.
You can make a good arguement with either road you choose. I dunno, I'm just kind of glad the kid will at least have a shot at it. I really don't think it will matter too much, b/c quite honestly, he's not in the same league as say the top 50 in the PGA. He perhaps might sneak in a couple of top 10's, but anymore than that is quite doubtful.
As far as the cart being an advantage, I think it actually evens the playing field. Most of the people will tell you that have played with Martin, his leg is in terrible shape. After playing a round of 18 and walking only where he has to, they say his leg swells to two times normal size and is solid black and purple. They say that most would change their minds if they could only get a glimpse of his leg after a round.
I'm just glad to see the kid get a fair shake and is able to pursue a life long dream of his. If I were in his shoes, I'd hope I would have had the balls to pursue it for as long as he did. If nothing else, at least he gave it a shot....
As far as the cart being an advantage, I think it actually evens the playing field. Most of the people will tell you that have played with Martin, his leg is in terrible shape. After playing a round of 18 and walking only where he has to, they say his leg swells to two times normal size and is solid black and purple. They say that most would change their minds if they could only get a glimpse of his leg after a round.
I'm just glad to see the kid get a fair shake and is able to pursue a life long dream of his. If I were in his shoes, I'd hope I would have had the balls to pursue it for as long as he did. If nothing else, at least he gave it a shot....
Also keep in mind, that he has to go to qualifying once again b/c he lost his card. We might not ever have to worry about it.
One thing that does trouble me about it, is when & where does it stop? What is the difference between severe and non-severee? If Norman falls from a two story building and screws his back up, would he be eligible for a cart b/c of his injury? What if it was physically impossible for him to compete in a PGA tournament without the use of a cart? Actually, this decision will probably be applied to someone totally different than Mr. Martin. Once you bend the rules for one person, watch out b/c there's usually a bunch of people trying to get theirss.
It will be interesting to see how this ruling will play out for future generations of golfers....
One thing that does trouble me about it, is when & where does it stop? What is the difference between severe and non-severee? If Norman falls from a two story building and screws his back up, would he be eligible for a cart b/c of his injury? What if it was physically impossible for him to compete in a PGA tournament without the use of a cart? Actually, this decision will probably be applied to someone totally different than Mr. Martin. Once you bend the rules for one person, watch out b/c there's usually a bunch of people trying to get theirss.
It will be interesting to see how this ruling will play out for future generations of golfers....
i guarantee you will see a wave of litigation based on this decision in all arenas of professional and amateur sports.
I WONDER WHAT THE FORFATHERS OF GOLF WHO FOUNDED THIS GREAT SPORT WOULD SAY? NOT!!!
ENOUGH SAID.
ENOUGH SAID.
Let him ride. I golf, and if u r n shape, walking is no big deal. I either carry or pull my clubs as well. I shoot better when I walk. Walking is not an integral part of the game. If it was, I would score better out of a cart, and there wouldn't be so many fat asses on the tour. If walking was integral, only the players in the best shape would ever win.
All these primadonnas on the tour who r so against this ruling do is walk. They don't carry their clubs, they don't use a pull cart, heck, they don't ever wipe off their own ball!
IMO, the PGA Tour is far removed from the average golfer like me. We don't have hundreds of people pointing out every errant shot (when was the last time u saw a pro lose a ball in the rough??), we don't have a caddy telling us the exact yardage on each and every shot, we don't have a rules official every 100 yards, we don't have perfect still and quiet before each shot, we DO HAVE foursomes of 25+ handicap hacks(or even worse middle aged women) in front of us delaying our rounds, we DO HAVE drunks on the course with us hooting and hollering, we DO HAVE rocks in the fairways, we DO HAVE to play on aerated greens, and MOST OF ALL, our courses are NOT perfectly manicured eliciting a perfect lie every time.
I'd love to see some of these idiots (Monty comes to mind) carry their own clubs and play on a local municipal golf course. Just something else for them to bellyache about. Wah, wah, wah, cry me a river.
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It's far better to be LUCKY than good.
All these primadonnas on the tour who r so against this ruling do is walk. They don't carry their clubs, they don't use a pull cart, heck, they don't ever wipe off their own ball!
IMO, the PGA Tour is far removed from the average golfer like me. We don't have hundreds of people pointing out every errant shot (when was the last time u saw a pro lose a ball in the rough??), we don't have a caddy telling us the exact yardage on each and every shot, we don't have a rules official every 100 yards, we don't have perfect still and quiet before each shot, we DO HAVE foursomes of 25+ handicap hacks(or even worse middle aged women) in front of us delaying our rounds, we DO HAVE drunks on the course with us hooting and hollering, we DO HAVE rocks in the fairways, we DO HAVE to play on aerated greens, and MOST OF ALL, our courses are NOT perfectly manicured eliciting a perfect lie every time.
I'd love to see some of these idiots (Monty comes to mind) carry their own clubs and play on a local municipal golf course. Just something else for them to bellyache about. Wah, wah, wah, cry me a river.
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It's far better to be LUCKY than good.
6-5, tough to debate golf with someone that would have to spot me four a side but i still think walking plays a significant role in pga tournament golf. i used to manage a group that sponsored several young players on the secondary tours and would caddy for one of my favorites on a regular basis when i could get away. i've seen many a tournament over hilly terrain in the middle of the summer where fatigue played a significant factor. i understand that the pga is overrun with pampered prima donnas and i also understand that the seniors ride and play only three roumds. obviously the tournament format was modified for the seniors but i'm talking about the pga tour tournament format which is supposed to be the epitome of the game.
how many times have you seen a player withdraw because of a physical problem or injury? maybe some of those guys could continue playing if they were allowed to ride in a cart. trust me that the law regarding accomodations for the handicapped does not only apply to those with congenital physical problems. in some cases it doesn't even have to be permanent. i guarantee that it will not be long before others are making their claims to use carts on the tour. eventually the pga will have to make carts available for all just to avoid the headache. when that happens, do you believe all the players will avail themselves of the option to ride or will most continue to walk? i believe that almost all will opt to ride, because it is a competitive advantage. i think the reason you play better when you walk is because it gives you more opportunity to focus and visualize, not really an issue with the pros. would you still play better if the course was one with hills and elevated tees and it was 96 degrees and 98% humidity? probably not.
don't get me wrong, i admire casey martin and what he has accomplished. i simply believe we will come to rue the day we bagan to allow the courts to make the rules for competitive sports. it will become yet another venue where participants will run to the courthouse seeking injunctions when they don't receive the accommodation they think they deserve. you see it now in the area of eligibility in ncaa and amateur sports. the possibilities to use this decision of the supreme court to make other sports change rules and format is endless.
"i'm from the government and i'm here to help?" maybe i'm just a jaded old courthouse lawyer but it just never seems to work out that way. it will be interesting to see where this goes.
ps - i will not come off getting at least four a side (dtb already ratted you out on your game.)
how many times have you seen a player withdraw because of a physical problem or injury? maybe some of those guys could continue playing if they were allowed to ride in a cart. trust me that the law regarding accomodations for the handicapped does not only apply to those with congenital physical problems. in some cases it doesn't even have to be permanent. i guarantee that it will not be long before others are making their claims to use carts on the tour. eventually the pga will have to make carts available for all just to avoid the headache. when that happens, do you believe all the players will avail themselves of the option to ride or will most continue to walk? i believe that almost all will opt to ride, because it is a competitive advantage. i think the reason you play better when you walk is because it gives you more opportunity to focus and visualize, not really an issue with the pros. would you still play better if the course was one with hills and elevated tees and it was 96 degrees and 98% humidity? probably not.
don't get me wrong, i admire casey martin and what he has accomplished. i simply believe we will come to rue the day we bagan to allow the courts to make the rules for competitive sports. it will become yet another venue where participants will run to the courthouse seeking injunctions when they don't receive the accommodation they think they deserve. you see it now in the area of eligibility in ncaa and amateur sports. the possibilities to use this decision of the supreme court to make other sports change rules and format is endless.
"i'm from the government and i'm here to help?" maybe i'm just a jaded old courthouse lawyer but it just never seems to work out that way. it will be interesting to see where this goes.
ps - i will not come off getting at least four a side (dtb already ratted you out on your game.)
Loop Will be getting a little revenge on
6-5 on the course shortly for referring to me as "old man"
My take on Casey is I am basically tradtionalist and fear this will open can of worms in future especially with courts involved.Where do and how will they draw the line, and not just in golf. It will have impact on all sports.
Are you getting ready for foots?
6-5 on the course shortly for referring to me as "old man"
My take on Casey is I am basically tradtionalist and fear this will open can of worms in future especially with courts involved.Where do and how will they draw the line, and not just in golf. It will have impact on all sports.
Are you getting ready for foots?
Loop, I'm really not that good. Average at best. Your buddy there, DTB, is the sandbagger! I don't think I hold any course records, which our friend DTB can not say!
The problem I saw with the ruling was alluded to by u both; who decides now who can and can not ride in a cart? Does it have to be a disease process or congenital deformity? Can a guy who sprains his ankle on Monday ride? Can a guy who hurts his back ride? Can a guy who has a blister on his big toe ride? I would hope this would be a one time thing, but I reckon u both r right and that it opens a whole new litigation avenue.
BTW, I even play better on hilly courses in the dead of summer, walking instead of riding, lol
Also, don't believe anything the "old man" tells u. He is a classic sandbagger. GL!
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It's far better to be LUCKY than good.
The problem I saw with the ruling was alluded to by u both; who decides now who can and can not ride in a cart? Does it have to be a disease process or congenital deformity? Can a guy who sprains his ankle on Monday ride? Can a guy who hurts his back ride? Can a guy who has a blister on his big toe ride? I would hope this would be a one time thing, but I reckon u both r right and that it opens a whole new litigation avenue.
BTW, I even play better on hilly courses in the dead of summer, walking instead of riding, lol
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It's far better to be LUCKY than good.
I might have this wrong but I believe the original objection and the reason for the long drawn out court case was the fact that the PGA tour wanted to be able to set their own rules and not be pressured by government who would dictate the individual rules of an independent sports governing body - in this respect it is a dangerous decision, HOWEVER I believe the decision is correct and people with a disability should be allowed to pursue the same dreams as any able bodied person
[This message has been edited by Ian (edited 05-31-2001).]
[This message has been edited by Ian (edited 05-31-2001).]
