watching dlh/manny for the first time...

[gardenweasel]

saw the last round on the internet but the feed was terrible...

well....i was shocked at oscar`s physical appearance...he had no muscle tone..if you pulled a middle aged man of average weight who didn`t work out much off the beach,he probably would have looked alot like oscar physically in this fight...at 147,instead of being cut he looked a little soft...

he looks like he lost alot of muscle getting down to the weight.....

his shoulder blades don`t appear to be much thicker than his waist...and oscar`s fairly top heavy...

and when manny did his signature lunges to throw the straight left and get inside,oscar bent over at the waist making himself shorter,closer and easier to hit...

he didn`t use his height one iota....

what a disaster...

 

[crow]

I can't remember since the 21 years i'm watching boxing a bigger flop than Oscar.

Maybe Tyson vs Spinks compares, but Spinks did threw some punches. And he wasn't +200, more like +500.

With all of his armada of nutritionists, hall of fame trainers, physical gourus, etc...Oscar managed to produce the absolute primordial non-performance of all ages.
One that will remain in the record books for a LOOOOONG time.

He showed what he really was at the core; a safety first fighter afraid to get hit.

Horrible, horrible way to end a career.

 

[Romi]

I can't remember since the 21 years i'm watching boxing a bigger flop than Oscar.

Maybe Tyson vs Spinks compares, but Spinks did threw some punches. And he wasn't +200, more like +500.

With all of his armada of nutritionists, hall of fame trainers, physical gourus, etc...Oscar managed to produce the absolute primordial non-performance of all ages.
One that will remain in the record books for a LOOOOONG time.

He showed what he really was at the core; a safety first fighter afraid to get hit.

Horrible, horrible way to end a career.

Kind of like the way Leonard went out losing to Hector fcking Camacho...I wasn't a big Leonard fan after he "beat" Hagler but a ko loss to Camacho was painful to watch.

 

[crow]

Kind of like the way Leonard went out losing to Hector fcking Camacho...I wasn't a big Leonard fan after he "beat" Hagler but a ko loss to Camacho was painful to watch.

Leonard was a 40 year fighter retired for 7 years facing a 35 year old active fighter at least as big as him.

And he DID throw punches.

No compraison really.

Mexicans are gonna laugh at his face for the next 2000 years.
Not to mention commentators.

 

[Romi]

Leonard was a 40 year fighter retired for 7 years facing a 35 year old active fighter at least as big as him.
And he DID throw punches.

No compraison really.

Mexicans are gonna laugh at his face for the next 2000 years.
Not to mention commentators.

whatever dude...Leonard won a version of the lght hvy title at one time and was fighting a guy that strted @129. Leonard was better than a 2 to 1 favorite as well. Oscar 147, pac 148...oscar was only taller in this one

 

[Romi]

saw the last round on the internet but the feed was terrible...

well....i was shocked at oscar`s physical appearance...he had no muscle tone..if you pulled a middle aged man of average weight who didn`t work out much off the beach,he probably would have looked alot like oscar physically in this fight...at 147,instead of being cut he looked a little soft...

he looks like he lost alot of muscle getting down to the weight.....

his shoulder blades don`t appear to be much thicker than his waist...and oscar`s fairly top heavy...

and when manny did his signature lunges to throw the straight left and get inside,oscar bent over at the waist making himself shorter,closer and easier to hit...

he didn`t use his height one iota....

what a disaster...

just watched the fight myself...oscar was simply a shell...roach knew oscar was shot and that's why he took the fight...oscar had plenty of ammo but he can no longer pull the trigger...Oscar's physique wasn't there. Hats off to paq and roach for a dominating peformance.

 

[crow]

Hoya REFUSED to throw a punch, terrified as he was to get countered.

In the seventh Pac unloads against Hoya on the ropes and then takes a step back by fear of getting suckered by a hayemaker; what does Hoya do ? He moves from the ropes a moment...and retreats back without being pressured, hoping to get stopped.

Nough said.

PS: Both Leonard and Hoya enjoyed big height and reach advantages( altough more pronounced in Hoya vs Pac). On fight night the weights were the same .

But Leonard at 40 was coming back from 7 whooping years of inactivity . He never quit and was stopped on his feet trying to defend himself.

Hoya early career is resumed at physical advantages enjoyed over older men unable to efficiently cut weight .

Hoya had great talent but didn't like going to war.

Facing adversairies he had no physical advantages over, he fought scared.

Quartey floored and outpointed him;
the excuse for refusing the rematch: " the public demands more exciting fights" :mj07: .

Trinidad exposed him as a gutless runner. Mosley, a lightweight moving 2 weight divisions outmanned him.

Hoya picked Manny just as he picked his early adversairies, hoping the physical advantages would give him a spectacular victory.

When the weight drain affected him, he simply surrendered unabashly on his way to the ring.

 

[jr11]

I don't post much here in this forum but make plays periodically. What I am about to say is the obvious, and not looking to rock the boat with anyone, but who really has Hoya beat? He lost pretty much every big fight he's been in, and yet the f*cker makes bank. Other than baseball, where can you steal $ like this? I don't get it. Maybe I off my rocker, but why do we (me included) think he's ever been anything. Sure he has been competitive, but the name of the game is to win. He lost to some great talent, but his legacy IMO closes very very bad. Really?

 

[The Sponge]

I don't post much here in this forum but make plays periodically. What I am about to say is the obvious, and not looking to rock the boat with anyone, but who really has Hoya beat? He lost pretty much every big fight he's been in, and yet the f*cker makes bank. Other than baseball, where can you steal $ like this? I don't get it. Maybe I off my rocker, but why do we (me included) think he's ever been anything. Sure he has been competitive, but the name of the game is to win. He lost to some great talent, but his legacy IMO closes very very bad. Really?

i never understood this and i have been saying it for five years. Why do people want to watch him? But what he does have are three big advantages. He is white, Good looking, and has the big media machine behind him. I was watching the Florida/Bama game and they kept running the ticker on ABC about the fight and even breaking down the height and reach advantages. I thought this was strange because i never saw this before with any fighters. I have saw info on tickers before but not like this. But i will say this in Oscars defense he did fight everyone. His one big fight with Hopkins i saw people saying that fight was close but the fight i saw, saw him losing every round and it getting worse as the fight went longer. I think he bailed out of that one because he knew he wasn't winning anything. He took the easy way out. He should have at least ten losses. The Sturn fight was an embarrassment.

 

[The Sponge]

After watching this fight closer, Instead of giving Manny all 10-8 rounds i gave Oscar the benefit of the doubt and made the first round a 10-9. can't believe how much closer i thought this fight was from when i watched it a week ago.:SIB

 

[gardenweasel]

I don't post much here in this forum but make plays periodically. What I am about to say is the obvious, and not looking to rock the boat with anyone, but who really has Hoya beat? He lost pretty much every big fight he's been in, and yet the f*cker makes bank. Other than baseball, where can you steal $ like this? I don't get it. Maybe I off my rocker, but why do we (me included) think he's ever been anything. Sure he has been competitive, but the name of the game is to win. He lost to some great talent, but his legacy IMO closes very very bad. Really?

he was the golden boy from his amateur/olympic days...always had an amazing marketing machine surrounding him....

but,he was a great,very dominant lower weight fighter...froom lightweight through jr welter....

and early in his welterweight career,he was beating or at the very least hanging with guys like whitaker,mosley,ike quartey,trinidad...vargas was the bigger man and 22-1 and considered an elite fighter when dlh basically ended his career..

the guys that he beat earlier on in his lighter weight days that your average sports(other than boxing) fan doesn`t process were guys like oba carr(48-2),genaro hernandez(32-0),miguel angel gonzalez(41-0),john john molina(36-3),rafael ruelas(43-1),jesse james leija( a year and a half after he beat the great azumah nelson).... .....julio cesar chavez was on the down side when oscar beat him to a pulp, but he was(100-2!)...

this is one of the things about boxing that skews the perception of lower weight fighters that have the balls to test themselves...push the envelope....fight naturally bigger guys...people forget what they did in their prime at their optimum weight...while other guys who stayed put in one weight class have more prolific legacies...

case in point alexis arguello and aaron pryor....i`ll go to my grave believing that arguello was the greater champion...the better fighter...

at featherwt,super featherwt,lightwt he was a beast....but he kept moving up and challenging himself....

guys like arguello and dlh are great for boxing...but their legacy suffers because they pushed the envelope...

did they grow out of the smaller weight classes?...yes,in some instances....but sometimes they just took the tough fights to push themselves to their limit...

i mean oscar fighting bhop?....c`mon...

nobody`s more pissed at oscar for the manny debacle..it was disgraceful and imo,dmages his legacy....



but the guy was a truly great lower weight fighter....dominating...

at the higher weights he fought at(jr middle and middle)he was competitve at the highest levels but certainly not hof material...

of course thats just one man`s opinion...

 

[crow]

oba carr(48-2),genaro hernandez(32-0),miguel angel gonzalez(41-0),john john molina(36-3),rafael ruelas(43-1),jesse james leija( a year and a half after he beat the great azumah nelson)..

Hoya had 3 good victories over fighters more or less his age and height: Ruelas, Miguel Angel Gonzalez and Carr.
Hardly a murderer's row.

Hoya enjoyed huge age and reach advantages over most of the others:
- 8 years advantage + same size as Pac ( or smaller): Molina, Leija

- 7 year advantage: Hernandez

When Hoya moved up and didn't enjoy big age and height advantages, he got beat by Quartey, Trinidad, Mosley and a faded Whitaker,.

So, Three victories over good but hardly great fighters doesn't make you a legend.

He was a flashy fighter with good skills and a nice face, and he milked it for all it's worth, and then some.

The problem is the money got to his head and he made a mockery of the sport.

 

[gardenweasel]

Hoya had 3 good victories over fighters more or less his age and height: Ruelas, Miguel Angel Gonzalez and Carr.
Hardly a murderer's row.

Hoya enjoyed huge age and reach advantages over most of the others:
- 8 years advantage + same size as Pac ( or smaller): Molina, Leija

- 7 year advantage: Hernandez

When Hoya moved up and didn't enjoy big age and height advantages, he got beat by Quartey, Trinidad, Mosley and a faded Whitaker,.

So, Three victories over good but hardly great fighters doesn't make you a legend.

He was a flashy fighter with good skills and a nice face, and he milked it for all it's worth, and then some.

The problem is the money got to his head and he made a mockery of the sport.

since when does reach advantage mean that victories count less?.....

tell that to paul williams,celestino caballero,bob foster and tommy hearns...

you`re obviously pulling my leg or are just to young to remember how good guys like gonzales,genaro hernandez and ruelas were...they were dominant fighters at the time...and those were high profile fights...

his fights with quartey,trinidad(who he beat ridiculously easily until he had brain lock late and gave it away)and mosley were very close fights...and he destroyed a prime,bigger vargas...

dlh was a DOMINATING lighter weight fighter in his era....and was right there with the best welterweights of the era...

you can`t re-write history by demeaning excellent fighters crow...

i know it`s chi-chi to beat on dlh when he`s down....i`m none to pleased with him myself....

but i`m not willing to disregard the guys whole career because i have a personal bone to pick with him or i don`t like his image....

 

[crow]

since when does reach advantage mean that victories count less?.....

You didn't read my post; i've said AGE+ reach; age in the lower classes counts A LOT.

It doesn't cancel Hoya's victories, but it puts them into perspective, considering how he failed when these advantages weren't there anymore.

you`re obviously pulling my leg or are just to young to remember how good guys like gonzales,genaro hernandez and ruelas were...they were dominant fighters at the time...and those were high profile fights...

Hoya acquitted himself very well in these fights, as he should have, being the more talented fighter.
He obliterated Ruelas, (his best win EVER probably,) and got a shootout vs Gonzalez.
Hoya definitely deserves credit for those ( hernandez maybe less).

his fights with quartey,trinidad(who he beat ridiculously easily until he had brain lock late and gave it away)and mosley were very close fights..

The Mosley one was indeed enjoyable: after being called a chicken he figured he would get brave and chose...a lightweight. He lost. Clearly.

If you enjoyed the Trinidad and Quartey fights, you must come from another planet.

I remember clearly staying up late and regretting it afterwards.

Hoya just came to survive in the Quartey fight and steal a decision (which he did).
I honestly though the decision was ridiculous, as Hoya DID NOTHING BUT SURVIVE till the last round, waiting Ike to do all the work and fatigue.
How can you enjoy fights like that ?

He boxed Trinidad for 8 rds with pitty pats without ever trying the KO, then fatigue struck, bringing terror , and this time Hoya unabashly RAN from his oponnent.

Legends DON'T RUN.
NEVER.
NOT IN A MILLION YEARS.( in BOXING, at least; if you're telling me Carl Lewis was an icon, i'll agree with you, but that's athletism)

Quartey was a warning, but Trinidad confirmed it.
Hoya doesn't like to fight against guys his size.

.and he destroyed a prime,bigger vargas....

Vargas simply didn't produce that night.
He was never the same after what Tito did to him. That's maybe why he felt the need to juice.
A good win over a clearly diminished oponnent.

dlh was a DOMINATING lighter weight fighter in his era....and was right there with the best welterweights of the era...
.

I'm not saying he wasn't dominant ..

He was spectacular against good oponnents, but against whom he enjoyed most of the time age and reach advantages .

When he faced fighters his size he just hit a wall.

Because he was kind of a bully at heart and managed to bend the system to such extremes people make him something he isn't.

The Gatti fight was a farce.
The Castillejo fight was a farce.
The Mayorga fight was a farce.
The Campas fight was a farce.
The Sturm fight was a farce.
The Hopkins fight was a bust. ( and Hopkins had to come UNDER the limlit to defend his own titles; HOPKINS WAS 39)

I suspect Mayweather went easy on him for financial reasons.

And now Pacquiao.

That's a lot of dodgy fights for one single dude, if you're asking me.

 

[markioandretti]

get lost asshole: admin

 

[gardenweasel]

You didn't read my post; i've said AGE+ reach; age in the lower classes counts A LOT.

It doesn't cancel Hoya's victories, but it puts them into perspective, considering how he failed when these advantages weren't there anymore.



Hoya acquitted himself very well in these fights, as he should have, being the more talented fighter.
He obliterated Ruelas, (his best win EVER probably,) and got a shootout vs Gonzalez.
Hoya definitely deserves credit for those ( hernandez maybe less).




The Mosley one was indeed enjoyable: after being called a chicken he figured he would get brave and chose...a lightweight. He lost. Clearly.

If you enjoyed the Trinidad and Quartey fights, you must come from another planet.

I remember clearly staying up late and regretting it afterwards.

Hoya just came to survive in the Quartey fight and steal a decision (which he did).
I honestly though the decision was ridiculous, as Hoya DID NOTHING BUT SURVIVE till the last round, waiting Ike to do all the work and fatigue.
How can you enjoy fights like that ?

He boxed Trinidad for 8 rds with pitty pats without ever trying the KO, then fatigue struck, bringing terror , and this time Hoya unabashly RAN from his oponnent.

Legends DON'T RUN.
NEVER.
NOT IN A MILLION YEARS.( in BOXING, at least; if you're telling me Carl Lewis was an icon, i'll agree with you, but that's athletism)

Quartey was a warning, but Trinidad confirmed it.
Hoya doesn't like to fight against guys his size.


Vargas simply didn't produce that night.
He was never the same after what Tito did to him. That's maybe why he felt the need to juice.
A good win over a clearly diminished oponnent.




I'm not saying he wasn't dominant ..

He was spectacular against good oponnents, but against whom he enjoyed most of the time age and reach advantages .

When he faced fighters his size he just hit a wall.

Because he was kind of a bully at heart and managed to bend the system to such extremes people make him something he isn't.

The Gatti fight was a farce.
The Castillejo fight was a farce.
The Mayorga fight was a farce.
The Campas fight was a farce.
The Sturm fight was a farce.
The Hopkins fight was a bust. ( and Hopkins had to come UNDER the limlit to defend his own titles; HOPKINS WAS 39)

I suspect Mayweather went easy on him for financial reasons.

And now Pacquiao.

That's a lot of dodgy fights for one single dude, if you're asking me.

why was he a bully when he defeated the best lighter weight fighters of his era?... that`s what he weighed at the time...lol

and how many great fighters didn`t fight fringe contenders?...joe louis and the bum of the month....ali fought many absolute garbage fighters...

hell,i love calzaghe but he fought garbage in his own backyard until the end of his career....and even then aside from kessler,how many "great" fighters in their "prime" did calzaghe beat?...

??????

if you`re going to redefine great fighters by their physical advantages,then lets get down with roy jones/floyd mayweather and pernell whitaker`s physical advantages...i.e.reflexes....

that`s also a physical advantage....athleticism is a physical advantge.....you`re born with it...you don`t earn it...you can`t train it.....it just is...

you and i couldn`t produce the hand speed and reflexes of floyd,jr and rjj if we spent 24/7 in the gym...

does that count?...

how about the physical advantage of being a lefty?....

where do you draw the line,sage?...

"vargas simply didn`t produce that night"?

you`re being ridiculous...you`re making excuses for dlh`s every accomplishment....

"he was taller"..."he had a longer reach"...

last time i checked,a boxer`s size is defined by a "weigh in"...not a "height and reach-in"......

boy,you really have a hrd on for oscar....

 

[gardenweasel]

"Legends DON'T RUN.
NEVER.
NOT IN A MILLION YEARS.( in BOXING, at least; if you're telling me Carl Lewis was an icon, i'll agree with you, but that's athletism)"..

ali wasn`t a legend?.....he ran like a thief in some fights...

hell he layed on the ropes for 2:30 of rounds later in his career,then threw some light bullshit combinations at the end of round and some a-hole judges gave him the rounds on pure reputation...

"legend"?....i don`t recall calling anyone a legend....

just a surefire h.o.f`er and a dominant lighter weight fighter in his era...

try and stay on point,crow...

 

[crow]

Well, you might be right; i'm treating him too harshly, ha ha

Hoya certainly deserves to be where he's now, he worked for it.

He was indeed a h.o.f`er and a dominant lighter weight fighter.

Clearly not the best, but certainly among the best of his era.

Agreed, done.

Had he interrupted his career after the Vargas fight, i believe everybody would talk highly of him, because he was a talented fighter that just came slightly short on the biggest stages...


Burt then he began abusing the sport ( and the fans) who made him rich.


Hoya was consistenly disingenious about his losing performances , sometimes to staggering proportions ( he thought he was ahead on judge's cards going in the twelft rd vs Quartey).

Against big punchers,running ( by fear) was a good strategy knowing judges were going to favour the big cash cow. (
Ali did run too, but THEN HE MADE YOU PAY. Quite a difference.

How would you feel being in the place of Quartey that night ? Or Sturm ? Or Whitaker ?

Non content of these advantages, he began picking his adversairies and the conditions after the Vargas fight.

Hoya genuinely believed he had a shot at history when he fought for Bernard's undisputed middleweight title.
And Hoya genuinely believed it was fair play to make 39 year old Hopkins weigh 4.5 pounds under the limit...

Do you see Argullo asking champion Pryor to defend while 4 pounds under ?

(Leonard too pulled that *** against Lalonde i believe, but i might be wrong)

Boxing remains a contest, not a mismatch , a track meet or a promotional gimmick.

Pac was only the last of a list of carefully chosen oponnents. It backfired big time.

And i believe Oscar deserves every bit of stick he gets for trying to milk too long his image and his fans ( fans i was part of at one point)
( yes, yes).

There.
I'm done.
Adios Lola.

:toast:

 

[gardenweasel]

we`re obviously not going to agree....but i always enjoy an honest difference of opinion....

until the next time...:lol:

 

[Kramden]

My De la Hoya wagering history:

Vs. Ruelas ? backed de la Hoya large ? easy money
Vs. Whitaker ? backed Whitaker medium? opinion was split on who won.
Vs. Vargas ? backed Vargas small ? Juicer faded then stopped.
Vs. Mosley II ? backed Mosley large ? may have been lucky although Juiced Shane landed heavier shots down the stretch.
Vs. Sturm ?backed Sturm small at about +1300 and got robbed.
Vs. Hopkins ? backed Nard large + KO prop ? he was only -190 or so.
Vs. Mayorga ?backed Mayorga small ? Oscar?s last excellent showing
Vs. Mayweather ? backed Oscar medium ? value, thought he could steal one. Mayweather was better it should have been unanimous.
Vs. Forbes ? picked Oscar by KO small ? stupid play
Vs. Pacquaio ? backed Pacquaio medium ? PacMan in physical prime coupled with improved skills.

A lot of losses in there but overall made good money on the guy.

He?s had an excellent career and beat many good fighters. He?s just not an all-time great. It?s ironic that a former 106 pounder made him look 10 times worse than anyone else ever did. Even fighters born with a silver spoon like Oscar almost always go at least one fight too long. Everyone will catch a beating if they stick around too long and Oscar was not exempt from that rule. Boxing is unforgiving to all and cuts across all classes.