gardenweasel said:
i kinda thought we had an election "after" the iraq war had started?....
we had a "war hero" running against the draft dodger and his war...
i think that horse has left the barn...even though i agree...if you keep making that point prior to every election,the law of averages is with you....
lets try some basic logic....on covert intelligence programs...
no aggrieved parties that we know of....we all agree....
you haven`t been harmed...i haven`t been harmed...
how many terrorist attacks have we had on american soil since 9/11?......
none,you say?.........
some internal and external terrorist cells thwarted...
hmmm?....maybe these covert anti-terrorist operations that the times is intent on outting to al qaeda are actually in place to keep us safe...and not some paranoid rovian plot to subjugate the great unwashed........
don`t let raging bush derangement syndrome cloud your critical thinking....take those tin foil helmets off(not you bryanz...you earned yours)....
whatever your take on iraq...the war on terror(certainly the one being fought on the home front)has been very successful....with negligible damage to your precious civil liberties...
are any of you civil libertarians joining sarandon and mother sheehan in the 24 hour tag team fast?.....24 hours?....lol(i.e. ridiculous sideshow.....camilla parker-bowles is more entertaining.)...
elitist narcisists...
Yes, we had an election, but I think public opinion on the Iraq war is different now than at that time. The administration, IMO, still had all of us watching the color-bar-terror system and had the same people that voted for the Bushie's in the first one believing that we would be forever ruined by terra-rists if anyone other than them were guarding the hen house. As for the war hero, the conservative machine undertook a massive smear campaign to discredit his service, essentially undercutting that factor.
I could be wrong, but I think public opinion has changed since those elections. I think that over the past couple of years the Republican party has endured scandals that far exceed Democratic gaffes, at least publicly. People are asking questions and wondering exactly what this administration has done and wants to continue to do. I honestly believe that enough people are unhappy enough to vote for the other party this election. We shall see. A lot depends on who is nominated to lead their respective parties - it will have an effect on other legislative races.
As for your basic logic regarding covert intelligence programs, I think it's too simplistic. I give you a lot of credence in your points, because you are pretty fair minded in your assessments on these things. I don't think you go down one party road, I think you look at the issues. I think I am less fair than you are in most instances, in that regard. What it seems you are saying is that the ends justify the means when it comes to this issue. That's fine, if that is the way you feel. But we have a system in place that we have to either abide by, or change. This administration does whatever it wants, and our system is a non-issue. This cannot work, if we want our society and government to have any real value. There are laws in place that prohibit these illegal intelligence programs. There are systems in place that allow for the execution of appropriate intelligence. We have a three branch governmental system in place that has served this country well before Bush, and will serve it well after Bush. Bush has taken steps to demean that very system to accomplish his goals, and he is doing it outside our normal process. The legislative branch is there to monitor and balance the executive branch, and the current executive branch is running roughshod over the other branches.
The fact of the matter is, neither you nor I know whether anyone has been "aggrieved." We don't know who has been monitored and for what reason. Because there is no record of it. To say that nobody has, is no more correct than saying that somebody probably has. If there is no way to check it - which is the way our government is designed - then we have no way to know. And that is not the way I personally want my country to run. You can feel it's ok, that is your choice. The issue to me is not my personal civil liberties, nor yours, although each has value and importance in our country that I feel are being violated. The issue is this we simply cannot believe what this administration tells us. And they are doing whatever they want outside our governmental parameters. They have told bold-faced lies about what they have done in these intelligence programs, and then they ask us to believe them moving forward? Even George said it best: "There's an old saying in Tennessee ? I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee ? that says, fool me once, shame on ? shame on you. Fool me ? you can't get fooled again."
How many terrorist attacks have we had on american soil since 9/11? Well, how many did we have prior to that one? Not too many, right? And how many have happened because of Iraq and Saddam Hussein, either before or after? ZERO. But, where are we fighting terra? That's right, Iraq. How goes the battle in finding the guy that got us on 9/11? Well, again, I think George sums it up best:
"The most important thing is for us to find Osama bin Laden. It is our number one priority and we will not rest until we find him." ?Washington, D.C., Sept. 13, 2001
Okay, let's just believe George, right? Oh, no, wait, then he says, after heading into Iraq...
"I don't know where bin Laden is. I have no idea and really don't care. It's not that important.
It's not our priority." ?Washington, D.C., March 13, 2002
Signing statements allowing Bush to ignore existing law are yet another reason to think this administration does what it wants and shoves it in the face of Americans. This administration has run - and continues to run - roughshod over our system. And you can accept it if you like, that is your choice. I don't, and I will work hard to put someone in that will follow our laws and uphold the constitution that has served this country well for quite a long time. As for George? I think I can sum all of my feelings up in his stirring quote:
"If this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a lot easier, just so long as I'm the dictator." ?Washington, D.C., Dec. 19, 2000
Ain't THAT the truth.
