Chadman said:
all conjecture with no facts. facts can be manipulated which why there's debate.
so everyone should put up or move on
where do you stand? (or hide)
- Thread starter spibble spab
- Start date
all conjecture with no facts. facts can be manipulated which why there's debate.
so everyone should put up or move on
smurphy said:
Actually, I wouldn't waste my time responding in depth to Manson anymore. Any time I have done that, he has bounced to totally unrelated things. Totally ignoring the points.
All of those quotes were from Gardenweasel. While some of them were similar to Mansons, I will make an effort to respond to somebody that I respect.
GW made an effort to respond to the question by scrabble squid. That question is not easily answered at all because the cost/benefit ratio is horribly skewed and we very well may regret this thing in many different ways.
My references to 'Manson' were meant to tease GW that his statement, in whatever case, was Mansonesqe.
" only 50% have potable water and 30% have electricity."
Which addition of NYT/Algazeera are these stats coming from--Sheez
Chad If you are anyone get time watch segmant of Fox from 11am to 12 central.It report from imbedded reporter in Iraq doing interview with troops--much of it is good however not all--yesterday the tail end of his convoy was attacked and one American died--interesting listening to the troops.Was amazed that on base he is out of in Fujahla (spl) that troops have hot showers running water--flush camodes ect.
back to the water and electricty--
Most recent I can find and not from your most optomistic source as you see if you read entire link--Hard for me to understand our troops busting their ass over there and so many trying to undermine their work and efforts.
report 11-09-05
http://www.cfr.org/publication/9185/iraqs_reconstruction_ailments.html?breadcrumb=default
Electricity. Roughly $4.4 billion has been spent to boost Iraq?s electricity production, yielding mixed results. According to the U.S. State Department, power generation, currently at 4,600 megawatts, has only recently exceeded the prewar level of 4,400 megawatts. That?s still shy of the 6,000 megawatt objective stated by the Coalition Provisional Authority in September 2003. Nationwide, Iraqis on average have power for just half the day. Security forms a large part of this problem, too: a July 2005 report from the Government Accountability Office found that USAID nixed two electricity-generating projects in March 2004 because of the increased security costs of a separate electricity project. Several other power-generation projects have been cancelled or delayed. Barton says a better solution would have been to hand out 500 generators.
Water. In an effort to provide potable water to 90 percent of Iraqis, some $1.2 billion was allocated for water and sanitation-works projects. Yet the IRMO says just 66 percent of Iraqis have access to drinkable water. Further, the GAO report says that between $52 million and $200 million worth of water-sanitation projects were either inoperable or operating below capacity. Thirteen of Iraq ?s wastewater-treatment plants are operating at about a quarter of capacity, according to U.S. News & World Report. Experts point to looting, power shortages, and a poorly trained Iraqi staff as causes of the shortfall.
Which addition of NYT/Algazeera are these stats coming from--Sheez
Chad If you are anyone get time watch segmant of Fox from 11am to 12 central.It report from imbedded reporter in Iraq doing interview with troops--much of it is good however not all--yesterday the tail end of his convoy was attacked and one American died--interesting listening to the troops.Was amazed that on base he is out of in Fujahla (spl) that troops have hot showers running water--flush camodes ect.
back to the water and electricty--
Most recent I can find and not from your most optomistic source as you see if you read entire link--Hard for me to understand our troops busting their ass over there and so many trying to undermine their work and efforts.
report 11-09-05
http://www.cfr.org/publication/9185/iraqs_reconstruction_ailments.html?breadcrumb=default
Electricity. Roughly $4.4 billion has been spent to boost Iraq?s electricity production, yielding mixed results. According to the U.S. State Department, power generation, currently at 4,600 megawatts, has only recently exceeded the prewar level of 4,400 megawatts. That?s still shy of the 6,000 megawatt objective stated by the Coalition Provisional Authority in September 2003. Nationwide, Iraqis on average have power for just half the day. Security forms a large part of this problem, too: a July 2005 report from the Government Accountability Office found that USAID nixed two electricity-generating projects in March 2004 because of the increased security costs of a separate electricity project. Several other power-generation projects have been cancelled or delayed. Barton says a better solution would have been to hand out 500 generators.
Water. In an effort to provide potable water to 90 percent of Iraqis, some $1.2 billion was allocated for water and sanitation-works projects. Yet the IRMO says just 66 percent of Iraqis have access to drinkable water. Further, the GAO report says that between $52 million and $200 million worth of water-sanitation projects were either inoperable or operating below capacity. Thirteen of Iraq ?s wastewater-treatment plants are operating at about a quarter of capacity, according to U.S. News & World Report. Experts point to looting, power shortages, and a poorly trained Iraqi staff as causes of the shortfall.
DOGS THAT BARK said:" only 50% have potable water and 30% have electricity."
Which addition of NYT/Algazeera are these stats coming from--Sheez
Chad If you are anyone get time watch segmant of Fox from 11am to 12 central.It report from imbedded reporter in Iraq doing interview with troops--much of it is good however not all--yesterday the tail end of his convoy was attacked and one American died--interesting listening to the troops.Was amazed that on base he is out of in Fujahla (spl) that troops have hot showers running water--flush camodes ect.
back to the water and electricty--
Most recent I can find and not from your most optomistic source as you see if you read entire link--Hard for me to understand our troops busting their ass over there and so many trying to undermine their work and efforts.
report 11-09-05
http://www.cfr.org/publication/9185/iraqs_reconstruction_ailments.html?breadcrumb=default
Electricity. Roughly $4.4 billion has been spent to boost Iraq?s electricity production, yielding mixed results. According to the U.S. State Department, power generation, currently at 4,600 megawatts, has only recently exceeded the prewar level of 4,400 megawatts. That?s still shy of the 6,000 megawatt objective stated by the Coalition Provisional Authority in September 2003. Nationwide, Iraqis on average have power for just half the day. Security forms a large part of this problem, too: a July 2005 report from the Government Accountability Office found that USAID nixed two electricity-generating projects in March 2004 because of the increased security costs of a separate electricity project. Several other power-generation projects have been cancelled or delayed. Barton says a better solution would have been to hand out 500 generators.
Water. In an effort to provide potable water to 90 percent of Iraqis, some $1.2 billion was allocated for water and sanitation-works projects. Yet the IRMO says just 66 percent of Iraqis have access to drinkable water. Further, the GAO report says that between $52 million and $200 million worth of water-sanitation projects were either inoperable or operating below capacity. Thirteen of Iraq ?s wastewater-treatment plants are operating at about a quarter of capacity, according to U.S. News & World Report. Experts point to looting, power shortages, and a poorly trained Iraqi staff as causes of the shortfall.
I was the one quoting 50 and 30 percent, not Chad. And I got that from Fox news on the television about 2 weeks ago.
As i've mentioned plenty of times before, I have Fox on from 9-5 M-F and although i've seen a few brief 'imbedded' reports, they are hardly in-depth.
Not their fault, but come on.
That's great that we're spending all of this money trying to get water and electricity to Iraqi's, but WTF?
You are right. Our troops are busting their ass over there, and we have spent 4.4 billion on the grid with 'mixed results.'
Wayne,
criticizing the plan and the ongoing policy is not akin to dissing the troops. Man, I feel so bad about what they're going through all in the name of??? What?
We stay so busy here in Iraq we lost control of N Korea and Iran. At least Iran we still have a chance to stop them form there nukes. N Korea may have had one before Clinton left. New est in last 4 years is 3 or 4. And I don't see anyone slowing them down.
We shall see about Iraq in a few years. I'm willing to give us another 2 years to clean up the mess. As long as it don't cost more American lives for folks that need to get there chit right.
We shall see about Iraq in a few years. I'm willing to give us another 2 years to clean up the mess. As long as it don't cost more American lives for folks that need to get there chit right.
i don't understand how some people say that we are forcing our democracy on un-willing people....
more people voted in the iraq elections than in the 2004 u.s. presidential election.....i'm sure that there are more people in iraq that agree with us than disagree with us.....
kosar....
sorry i couldn't read all of your post....was on the phone trying to solve house problems....i'll try to respond to some
"I always love this one that seems to get repeated as if it's any different than tons of other countries that would LOVE for someone to kill our president. Please provide details of this 'attempted' assasination of Bush 41 that always gets thrown out there."
sometime after the first gulf war, bush41 made a trip to the area to spend thanksgiving with the troops....during this trip it was revealed that saddam had a plot to assissinate bush.....i forgot how they discovered this....
..........................................(how's this murphy)
"attack on u.s. planes in no fly zones"
"With flack that could not possibly reach our jets. It was not possible."
it doesn't matter whether they could reach our planes or not......although there are chances of a lucky shot every once in a while.......according to the agreement that was signed they weren't suppose to do it.....in other words they were breaking the law......
.....................................................
"Paying some families of Palestinian suicide bombers should be Israels problem. And I hardly think that it made the difference as a young man decides whether to blow himself up or not. IOW, him doing this did not increase violence or death, and in any case, had nothing to do with America. Do you remember America?"
although i somewhat tend to agree on this.....can you imagine the uproar of other countries if israel took care of this problem themselves.....israel is not playing on an equal field with other middle eastern countries for various reasons.....besides how do you know that saddam would have stopped with paying just the palestinians...it may have eventually embolden him to start paying other suicide bombers to come to the states.....imo, you don't take the chance of that happening.....you end it asap...
.......................................................
"aiding and abetting terrorists"
i'm not convinced that this isn't true......in the type of gov't. saddam had...him & his thugs knew everything that went on.....it is known that they treated some wounded thugs from the afgan war & that they were housing a guy named nadal (?)....i believe that saddam killed this guy when it was brought to world's attention.......there are other examples.....
...............................................................
"I thought the UN was irrelevant and corrupt. Yet we invade because he 'dissed' them? Hmmm."
the u.n. is a waste......but since the rest of the world respects this place...bush had no other choice to use them & to enforce the treaty that saddam signed...when a surrender agreement is not enforced.....then they might as well use it as toilet paper......
i'll address some more at another time....
more people voted in the iraq elections than in the 2004 u.s. presidential election.....i'm sure that there are more people in iraq that agree with us than disagree with us.....
kosar....
sorry i couldn't read all of your post....was on the phone trying to solve house problems....i'll try to respond to some
"I always love this one that seems to get repeated as if it's any different than tons of other countries that would LOVE for someone to kill our president. Please provide details of this 'attempted' assasination of Bush 41 that always gets thrown out there."
sometime after the first gulf war, bush41 made a trip to the area to spend thanksgiving with the troops....during this trip it was revealed that saddam had a plot to assissinate bush.....i forgot how they discovered this....
..........................................(how's this murphy)
"attack on u.s. planes in no fly zones"
"With flack that could not possibly reach our jets. It was not possible."
it doesn't matter whether they could reach our planes or not......although there are chances of a lucky shot every once in a while.......according to the agreement that was signed they weren't suppose to do it.....in other words they were breaking the law......
.....................................................
"Paying some families of Palestinian suicide bombers should be Israels problem. And I hardly think that it made the difference as a young man decides whether to blow himself up or not. IOW, him doing this did not increase violence or death, and in any case, had nothing to do with America. Do you remember America?"
although i somewhat tend to agree on this.....can you imagine the uproar of other countries if israel took care of this problem themselves.....israel is not playing on an equal field with other middle eastern countries for various reasons.....besides how do you know that saddam would have stopped with paying just the palestinians...it may have eventually embolden him to start paying other suicide bombers to come to the states.....imo, you don't take the chance of that happening.....you end it asap...
.......................................................
"aiding and abetting terrorists"
i'm not convinced that this isn't true......in the type of gov't. saddam had...him & his thugs knew everything that went on.....it is known that they treated some wounded thugs from the afgan war & that they were housing a guy named nadal (?)....i believe that saddam killed this guy when it was brought to world's attention.......there are other examples.....
...............................................................
"I thought the UN was irrelevant and corrupt. Yet we invade because he 'dissed' them? Hmmm."
the u.n. is a waste......but since the rest of the world respects this place...bush had no other choice to use them & to enforce the treaty that saddam signed...when a surrender agreement is not enforced.....then they might as well use it as toilet paper......
i'll address some more at another time....
kosar....
""Had absolutely nothing to do with our invasion of Iraq.""
our dramatic and aggressive change in middle eastern policy after 9/11...of which the iraqi invasion is the fulcrum....had nothing at all to do with asad leaving lebanon after 30 years?.....
and khaddafi`s cowering and disarming a week after saddam was captured?....
coincidence...it`s all coincidence....lol
..we had nothing to do with it....a wave of change that is slowly taking place in the middle east?...
our middle eastern policy post 9/11?.....and taking saddam out didn`t send any messages?...
our aggrssive middle eastern policy...our support of the lebanese....along with the stupid assasination of harriri.....
after syria had occupied lebanon for 30 years?
we had been pressuring the u.n. for a resolution on syria`s occupation of lebanon...of course,nobody respects the u.n(as you stated)....unless somebody`s carrying a big stick...
so,i`d say we had alot to do with it...an awful lot...
catch the dates...
3/2/2005: Bush: "You Get Your Troops Out of Lebanon"
A blunt statement from the President: Bush Demands That Syria Leave Lebanon.
ARNOLD, Md. - President Bush on Wednesday demanded in blunt terms that Syria get out of Lebanon, saying the free world is in agreement that Damascus’ authority over the political affairs of its neighbor must end now.
He applauded the strong message sent to Syria when Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and French Foreign Minister Michel Barnier held a joint news conference on London on Tuesday.......
“Both of them stood up and said loud and clear to Syria, `You get your troops and your secret services out of Lebanon so that good democracy has a chance to flourish,” ....
amazingly(follow the timeline)....
Riyyak, Lebanon, April 26,2005...
Syria completes the withdrawal of its forces from Lebanon on Tuesday in line with a UN resolution, ending 29 years of direct involvement in its neighbor...
coincidence...
i wonder who pressured the u.n. to get on the ball?....lol
and why do you think ...after all this time...the syrians left?....maybe,because asad didn`t want to end up like saddam?...
certainly not because he feared the u.n.....
Six Months that Changed the Country
""Two fundamental changes several years ago provided the underlying conditions for change in Lebanon. The first came with the death in June 2000 of Syrian president Hafiz al-Asad and his replacement by his less-gifted son Bashar. The second was September 11 and the profound shift that it has brought about in U.S. foreign policy, particularly toward the Arab and Islamic world. The combination of the two meant that when September 11 propelled the United States into the internal politics of the Middle East, it would not be met by a wise and prudent leader in Damascus, a politician capable of absorbing the new U.S. dynamic and avoiding a losing confrontation with it.""
........................................................
libya?....
the reason that libya disarmed its nuclear program had nothing to do with diplomacy....... it’s because we and the italians caught a shipful of nuclear centrifuges on the way to libya.....
we let khaddafi know in no uncertain terms that if you don’t want to be the next saddam ,you’re going to surrender your nuclear program.....
he didn`t want to play and his nuclear program is now sitting in some site in nevada.....
i wonder why it`s in nevada?....i wonder why libya disarmed a week after saddam was captured?
just a coincidence,i guess....lol
you picked a tough week to stop sniffing glue,bro...
you spent way to much time on this...
get some rest....
these new documents that are being translated are getting interesting....
i hope they don`t validate everything we did....then,we`d have nothing to discuss...
""Had absolutely nothing to do with our invasion of Iraq.""
our dramatic and aggressive change in middle eastern policy after 9/11...of which the iraqi invasion is the fulcrum....had nothing at all to do with asad leaving lebanon after 30 years?.....
and khaddafi`s cowering and disarming a week after saddam was captured?....
coincidence...it`s all coincidence....lol
..we had nothing to do with it....a wave of change that is slowly taking place in the middle east?...
our middle eastern policy post 9/11?.....and taking saddam out didn`t send any messages?...
our aggrssive middle eastern policy...our support of the lebanese....along with the stupid assasination of harriri.....
after syria had occupied lebanon for 30 years?
we had been pressuring the u.n. for a resolution on syria`s occupation of lebanon...of course,nobody respects the u.n(as you stated)....unless somebody`s carrying a big stick...
so,i`d say we had alot to do with it...an awful lot...
catch the dates...
3/2/2005: Bush: "You Get Your Troops Out of Lebanon"
A blunt statement from the President: Bush Demands That Syria Leave Lebanon.
ARNOLD, Md. - President Bush on Wednesday demanded in blunt terms that Syria get out of Lebanon, saying the free world is in agreement that Damascus’ authority over the political affairs of its neighbor must end now.
He applauded the strong message sent to Syria when Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and French Foreign Minister Michel Barnier held a joint news conference on London on Tuesday.......
“Both of them stood up and said loud and clear to Syria, `You get your troops and your secret services out of Lebanon so that good democracy has a chance to flourish,” ....
amazingly(follow the timeline)....
Riyyak, Lebanon, April 26,2005...
Syria completes the withdrawal of its forces from Lebanon on Tuesday in line with a UN resolution, ending 29 years of direct involvement in its neighbor...
coincidence...
i wonder who pressured the u.n. to get on the ball?....lol
and why do you think ...after all this time...the syrians left?....maybe,because asad didn`t want to end up like saddam?...
certainly not because he feared the u.n.....
Six Months that Changed the Country
""Two fundamental changes several years ago provided the underlying conditions for change in Lebanon. The first came with the death in June 2000 of Syrian president Hafiz al-Asad and his replacement by his less-gifted son Bashar. The second was September 11 and the profound shift that it has brought about in U.S. foreign policy, particularly toward the Arab and Islamic world. The combination of the two meant that when September 11 propelled the United States into the internal politics of the Middle East, it would not be met by a wise and prudent leader in Damascus, a politician capable of absorbing the new U.S. dynamic and avoiding a losing confrontation with it.""
........................................................
libya?....
the reason that libya disarmed its nuclear program had nothing to do with diplomacy....... it’s because we and the italians caught a shipful of nuclear centrifuges on the way to libya.....
we let khaddafi know in no uncertain terms that if you don’t want to be the next saddam ,you’re going to surrender your nuclear program.....
he didn`t want to play and his nuclear program is now sitting in some site in nevada.....
i wonder why it`s in nevada?....i wonder why libya disarmed a week after saddam was captured?
just a coincidence,i guess....lol
you picked a tough week to stop sniffing glue,bro...
you spent way to much time on this...
get some rest....
these new documents that are being translated are getting interesting....
i hope they don`t validate everything we did....then,we`d have nothing to discuss...