First off, let me say I am having a tad of difficulty getting on the hopefully right side of this one. I am watching the replays over and over, but it has so far been inconclusive. Also, I am driving down to Carson to see this one, so I really hope YOU guys see what I don't or can't in this matchup. Only conclusion I can draw is that Vazquez is the harder puncher. Both are highly skilled for sure. I lean towards Vazquez only because Marquez got sent goofy with that Vazquez left hook. As Marlon Brando said to the undertaker " I want you to use all your powers......", I hope you guys shed a light on this as their ain't nothing like being at a fight and having action on it. Plus, I need to pay for the trip! All comments are appreciated.
Boxing; 3/01/2008; Vazquez-Marquez; Carson, CA.
- Thread starter frank s.
- Start date
I think you hit the nail on the head saying this is getting difficult to determine who is gonna win. I think Marquez is the better fighter by a small margin but Vasquez has that fighters heart. Flip a coin. Gun to my head i would go Marquez but then i would leave town just in case.
Well, if it's a coin toss, why not take the odds with Marquez is right. I would LOVE to do that with some small degree of confidence. As of now I am reaching for straws. Really just can't get a read. If this forum doesn't chime in a help a brother out, I am going to have to maybe put out a few contracts around here!!!
Is that supposed to be funny? This is a fight fans fight. I think these guys are going to try and kill one another, but it's lined at 7.5. It could easily go past that. Well, if you aren't going to offer your expertise, then go eat some of Scotts burnt chicken!:scared
I think there is another thread on this fight somewhere in the files.
I think Punch is going to the fight as well as Franks and I believe he likes Vas in this. I think it's a toss up. No question that Marquez is the better technician here. I had him winning 5 of the 7 rds in the 1st fight. He was also dominating the rd before Vas clipped him and put him down . You could see the frustration on Vas' face as early as the 1st rd. I watched that fight recently thinking I'd bet a bundle on Marquez for the 3rd fight, then I watched the 2nd go and thought twice about it. Vas found a way to get inside repeatedly and he hurt Mar several times. Mar was still controlling as long as was staying on the outside and boxing but he chose to trade wayyyyy too much. I believe Beristin will have him BOXING from the get go. He can win it on boxing alone. Vas' face was a mess in both fights and I believe if marquez sticks to the plan, he'll get vas out of there on cuts by around the 8th rd. I won't bet the farm as Vas will be confident after stopping Mar but I'm going to have a little on the + odds. Should be another great fight. Both fighters are going to lose a little steam after this trilogy.
I think Punch is going to the fight as well as Franks and I believe he likes Vas in this. I think it's a toss up. No question that Marquez is the better technician here. I had him winning 5 of the 7 rds in the 1st fight. He was also dominating the rd before Vas clipped him and put him down . You could see the frustration on Vas' face as early as the 1st rd. I watched that fight recently thinking I'd bet a bundle on Marquez for the 3rd fight, then I watched the 2nd go and thought twice about it. Vas found a way to get inside repeatedly and he hurt Mar several times. Mar was still controlling as long as was staying on the outside and boxing but he chose to trade wayyyyy too much. I believe Beristin will have him BOXING from the get go. He can win it on boxing alone. Vas' face was a mess in both fights and I believe if marquez sticks to the plan, he'll get vas out of there on cuts by around the 8th rd. I won't bet the farm as Vas will be confident after stopping Mar but I'm going to have a little on the + odds. Should be another great fight. Both fighters are going to lose a little steam after this trilogy.
Vasquez/Marquez 60/40
Over/Under 50/50
If anything I would play Marquez +155 or parlay him with Cotto and Bute to get +200. Wouldn't lay odds on anything in this fight but I do give Vasquez a slight advantage due to his power vs Marquez chin. If Marquez stays on his feet he wins, so definitly a live dog
gl bl
cause i would still be forcing a bet on a fight that could go either way. Why not just enjoy it and find an MMA fight on this same day that might be a bit easier, to pay for your trip? Kick and Weasel feel this one pretty nice dog Halverson has a nice shot to win. From what i recall the guy he is fighting does suck.
easy, luca brazzi,..........lol.....
vasquez` power can and has bailed him out of fights.......
he was getting hammered vs jhonny gonzales...gonzales was really schooling him and one punch turned the tables...
he`s durable,too...
i already grabbed marquez at +170....had to at those odds...and after hitting box`s 5-1 doggie,i feel very comfortable about playing with the man`s money....
you could make the argument that after stopping vasquez in part I,that marquez may have been a tad reckless in II.....
truthfully,the 1st 2 were basically wars of attrition...not tactical fights...
marquez was basically the hunter at bantam....very few guys since tim austin could stand in with him ...and he basically ended austin`s career...at the time,austin was pretty much a pfp guy....
he`ll have to adjust his approach to this fight and become more tactical....maybe watch that gonzales/vasquez fight a few times to really get a feel for what gonzales did....
that`s why i took the over 7.5 at plus money....i can`t believe that a savvy guy like nacho beristain will let marquez,with the lesser chin,get into another toe-to-toe battle of attrition with the stronger guy..the bigger puncher...the better chin.......
after years of being the hunter,can rafael make the adjustment?...a big question.....i personally agree with romi....i think marquez is the better technician...a good deal better.....if he can fight a very disciplined fight,he can win...maybe even stop vasquez late(lets not forget,even though vasquez is the bigger puncher,marquez isn`t exactly cory spinks)...
but can the leopard change his spots when he`s really, really never had to?....will the warrior instinct kick in when things start heating up?.....
the odds were to generous for me to pass up...maybe i go the other way if it weren`t marquez,who`s been very good to me...to many of us...i`m a big fan and may be thinking with my heart more than my head....
i`m worried about vasquez` body work,too....he can hurt marquez to the body.....
the timing`s perfect,after watching the cyborg jab his way past barney rubble saturday night.....we get a "real" fight...an "anything can happen" fight with real drama....with possibly 2 careers on the line....
this is really big stuff,boxing-wise...
i really can`t perceive any way that this tirns into a dud,barring an early cut or hand injury....
very excited to see this one...
btw...anybody wagering on this should probably watch the showtime replays of the 1st two that they`ll surely show in the lead up to the fight...
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sponge... i never said that...:nono: ..i said that "gurgel" is highly overrated....
i know next to nothing about halverson....:shrug:
just watched marquez/vasquez I on showtime....
marquez dominated vasquez through 5...don`t know what fight al bernstein was watching...but marquez was giving a boxing lesson to vasquez...and not just soft punches...he was varying his shots(like he and his brother do)...
in the 3rd,marquez hurt vasquez,vasquez kinda stumbled to the ropes,marquez pressed his advantage and got caught by a hook and dropped in the exchange.......it hurt him....he recovered nicely,though..
when he exchanges with vasquez,you have to hold your breath..
honestly,though,through 5,other than that punch,it was very one sided,imo...marquez made him miss alot early,standing at puncher`s distance...
in the 6th,maybe because of the nose,vasquez came out very strong and kind of changed his gameplan....
he was throwing more,harder jabs and coming inside behind them.......instead of standing at arm`s length with marquez....he was forcing his way inside ,landing some excellent body shots...and he seemed to be able to land better to the head in the 6th....apparently the body shots opened up marquez for more head shots...
the closest thing to a vasquez round,the knockdown notwithstanding...
he had to get inside,and i think the body work paid some dividends...
in the 7th,he started landing much better...he was still getting hit,but,he`s definitely the tougher guy...he can soak up punishment and still be very dangerous offensively....he had marquez on the backfoot...marquez catches vasquez off balance quite often,but,vasquez just soaks up punishment and keeps coming...
his punches seemed to start slowing marquez in the 7th...and marquez face,for the first time,was getting a bit marked up(vasquez face was a mess from the nose and all the other shots he took)....
the scary thing for me(as a marquez fan) is that vasquez can take enormous punishment short of a broken nose that impairs his breathing....and keep coming at a brisk pace...
no matter how much punishment marquez puts on vasquez early,vasquez will still be dangerous...
pretty amazing,even given the fact that marquez is moving up in weight,that vasquez can absorb those slashing shots....i`m not talking a few,either...
and marquez breaks down much easier...
vasquez throws every punch with bad intentions,while marquez is more measured...he was able to basically hit vasquez with alot of shots early...
very,very reminiscent of vasquez/jhonny gonzales....
after watching this,i`m not that impressed with vasquez as a technician...he`s just a hard punching,tough hombre that keeps coming...he has all the punches,but,his balance is bad and he leaves himself open...
he can win a war of attrition or ,if he catches you,put you away ....
the thing is,how many more times can vasquez take these beatings vs good punchers and keep coming from behind?....
seems it`s working vs bantams moving up in weight....but,if vasquez moves up in weight himself,i`ll be looking hard at who he fights...he may not be able to take all that punishment vs bigger guys...
he`s very easy to hit...
i`m a little worried that he`d have been able to wear marquez down in part 1,if not for the nose...
he took alot of shots...but,,imo,in the 7th,imo,he looked stronger than marquez...
if it goes farther,maybe marquez gets a second wind...i don`t know....maybe wishful thinking on my part...
i gotta say,though,it was a great 7 rounds...
marquez has to sustain the pace and continue to make vasquez pay dearly for getting inside,because he does damage inside..
the second fight is tomorrow....very curious to see it...the first one wasn`t exactly how i`d remembered it....
i`ll give an opinion tomorrow...maybe it`ll become more clear,having seen both back to back.....
if anybody else watched it and saw it differently,please weigh in.....be good to have other opinions....
g.l.
marquez dominated vasquez through 5...don`t know what fight al bernstein was watching...but marquez was giving a boxing lesson to vasquez...and not just soft punches...he was varying his shots(like he and his brother do)...
in the 3rd,marquez hurt vasquez,vasquez kinda stumbled to the ropes,marquez pressed his advantage and got caught by a hook and dropped in the exchange.......it hurt him....he recovered nicely,though..
when he exchanges with vasquez,you have to hold your breath..
honestly,though,through 5,other than that punch,it was very one sided,imo...marquez made him miss alot early,standing at puncher`s distance...
in the 6th,maybe because of the nose,vasquez came out very strong and kind of changed his gameplan....
he was throwing more,harder jabs and coming inside behind them.......instead of standing at arm`s length with marquez....he was forcing his way inside ,landing some excellent body shots...and he seemed to be able to land better to the head in the 6th....apparently the body shots opened up marquez for more head shots...
the closest thing to a vasquez round,the knockdown notwithstanding...
he had to get inside,and i think the body work paid some dividends...
in the 7th,he started landing much better...he was still getting hit,but,he`s definitely the tougher guy...he can soak up punishment and still be very dangerous offensively....he had marquez on the backfoot...marquez catches vasquez off balance quite often,but,vasquez just soaks up punishment and keeps coming...
his punches seemed to start slowing marquez in the 7th...and marquez face,for the first time,was getting a bit marked up(vasquez face was a mess from the nose and all the other shots he took)....
the scary thing for me(as a marquez fan) is that vasquez can take enormous punishment short of a broken nose that impairs his breathing....and keep coming at a brisk pace...
no matter how much punishment marquez puts on vasquez early,vasquez will still be dangerous...
pretty amazing,even given the fact that marquez is moving up in weight,that vasquez can absorb those slashing shots....i`m not talking a few,either...
and marquez breaks down much easier...
vasquez throws every punch with bad intentions,while marquez is more measured...he was able to basically hit vasquez with alot of shots early...
very,very reminiscent of vasquez/jhonny gonzales....
after watching this,i`m not that impressed with vasquez as a technician...he`s just a hard punching,tough hombre that keeps coming...he has all the punches,but,his balance is bad and he leaves himself open...
he can win a war of attrition or ,if he catches you,put you away ....
the thing is,how many more times can vasquez take these beatings vs good punchers and keep coming from behind?....
seems it`s working vs bantams moving up in weight....but,if vasquez moves up in weight himself,i`ll be looking hard at who he fights...he may not be able to take all that punishment vs bigger guys...
he`s very easy to hit...
i`m a little worried that he`d have been able to wear marquez down in part 1,if not for the nose...
he took alot of shots...but,,imo,in the 7th,imo,he looked stronger than marquez...
if it goes farther,maybe marquez gets a second wind...i don`t know....maybe wishful thinking on my part...
i gotta say,though,it was a great 7 rounds...
marquez has to sustain the pace and continue to make vasquez pay dearly for getting inside,because he does damage inside..
the second fight is tomorrow....very curious to see it...the first one wasn`t exactly how i`d remembered it....
i`ll give an opinion tomorrow...maybe it`ll become more clear,having seen both back to back.....
if anybody else watched it and saw it differently,please weigh in.....be good to have other opinions....
g.l.
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When you said "Amen to that" I thought you were talking about KIcks bet on Halverson. After further review you were saying amen to the guy being overrated. My bad. So i guess you like the overrated guy?
Box you have any idea what are all these tiny moles growing on my body? Real little tiny ones. Sometimes i think i have a tiny piece of paper caught in my underarm hair but its one of these skin things. Any help you can give me i will appreciate it.
i really couldn`t say,bro.....kinda like having half a map to find buried treasure...
Excellent analysis gardenweasel. I haven't seen the first fight yet. Personally I think it's just too close and unpredictable to make a confident wager, we could study the tapes for years and still not be sure. But you took a great crack at ti 
The question is how Marquez approaches the fight, if he goes for a disciplined counter-punching fight or gets sucked into another slugfest with the stronger and insanely tough Vasquez. Too tough to call.
I played Marquez small +160. I remember you posted about the over 7.5, that's a good pick at the right line, I'm looking for about +130, but probably no play for me.
The question is how Marquez approaches the fight, if he goes for a disciplined counter-punching fight or gets sucked into another slugfest with the stronger and insanely tough Vasquez. Too tough to call. I played Marquez small +160. I remember you posted about the over 7.5, that's a good pick at the right line, I'm looking for about +130, but probably no play for me.
After the first fight i said Vasquez should get rid of Roach because to me it looked obvious that when Marquez threw the left hook he kept dropping his right. Sure enough this is what Vasquez's new trainer picked up and this is how he knocked him out. Spongy(a fan) saw this weakness and so did Vasquez's new trainer, now the question to me is did Marquez trainer pick this flaw up and are they working on it? He sure as hell didn't pick it up in the second fight. Just like everyone says i feel Marquez is by a good margin a better technical fighter but Vasquez has the chin and strengh to off set it a little. My pick is the same. And that pick is, who the hell knows.
I wonder what the KO prop lines will be for both guys. Im thinking to just bet both guys by KO, as long as both are +ve.
The distance line will be huge, probably +400 or more, considering over 7.5 is +120.
So bet both guys by KO, with a tiny bet on the distance? Id have to do the math.
The distance line will be huge, probably +400 or more, considering over 7.5 is +120.
So bet both guys by KO, with a tiny bet on the distance? Id have to do the math.
Nice work GW. The more I think about it, I am leaning toward Vazquez. I respect Marquez very much. It's just Vazquez is SO tough and stronger, combined with the fact I think this turns into a war no matter what the original intentions are. If Marquez tries to be a technician, once he gets tagged, I say he goes into survival mode and all hell breaks loose. That's the reason I am driving 600 miles RT to see this. So many "fights" are just orchestrated exhibitions to fatten wallets. These guys are not of that breed. This is a rubber match and ain't no one afraid to get hit (KLISTCHKO)!!!!!. I recall Marquez had Vazquez wobbled and Vazquez comes right back and drops him forthwith. Boxing at it's best. I would love to make a dog play here as Marquez is a live as they come. But the better man should win, and I think Vazquez has the edge.
frankie/n.j. my buds,i think you hit the nail on the head...how can this go a full 12?...
sponge...mentally,vasquez has a considerable edge after watching part II,imo..it never ceases to amaze me how much 4 lousy pounds can mean with these little guys...
just watched the second one....and i`m scared....scared by how much i`d forgotten about these 2 great fights (which i didn`t have on tape)...and scared about my "over" and "marquez" wagers...
this time,marquez,flush with the 1st stoppage victory stood in and exchanged way,way to much.......
and again ,he did very well early...he cut vasquez badly over both eyes....i mean badly...cuts like those,in a different fight,could easily have caused a stoppage...eyelid/eyebrow,lots of blood(again,i had forgotten how brutal this one was)...
marquez was ahead early,again,imo....and he stunned vasquez once or twice...buckled his knees...but,it seems that vasquez recovers very quickly....
vasquez was jabbing and following the jab in from the jump in this fight...he paid for it,took punishment and kept on coming....but,he inflicted much more early punishment on marquez in this one....marquez was lumped up,bruised and thoroughly beaten by the 6th....
it was a rough,physical fight...quite a few borderline low blows and some heads clashing........
vasquez put marquez down with one of those snapping left hooks in the third...and when vasquez catches marquez and hurts him,theres real residual damage....it seems to diminish marquez....
it was back and forth from there...ebb and flow....but,vasquez,limited skill-wise(in comparison to marquez,imo)just seems to be so mentally and physically tough....
marquez ain`t winning a war of attrition with vasquez....he`s to tough and to strong...
i do think that marquez "could" stop vasquez...he could cut him,break his nose again....he COULD outbox him if he stayed to a strict gameplan...he really had his way with vasquez the first 5 rounds in the first fight.....but,that would be difficult to do for a full 12...
marquez wins most of the exchanges until he starts to wear down...it`s just that vasquez` punches hurt marquez more.....
if he`s smart,he`ll box early and try and do damage in the first 4 or 5 rounds,like the 1st fight, (without taking the early damage he took in part II)....maybe cut him,break him up a little...
i can`t imagine beristain not realizing that marquez just can`t stand in with vasquez for 12.....it`s like marquez is "doing in" vasquez with the old "death by a thousand cuts",while fighting vasquez is like playing russian roulette...
i see no reason why,vasquez won`t steam ahead in III......he seems just fine with the idea that he`ll have to take some punishment to give some...
i`ve already got marquez at +170 and over 7.5 at +115.....what i`ll have to do is wait for a "vasquez inside the distance prop" to protect myself...see if i can manipulate it in a way that i can win a couple bucks one way or the other...i can`t believe that the klit./barney waltz will get a million props and this just gets the side and over...
liked the +170,but,i didn`t like the beating that marquez took in the second fight.....
how`s it go down?....in order of liklihood,i`d say:
1)vasquez wears down marquez somewhere within the mid-to later rounds...(it`s tough to be specific because i don`t know for sure how marquez will approach this)....if marquez stands in again,he`ll have a tough road to hoe....
2)marquez cuts vasquez.....
i just don`t see how this thing goes 12...considering the damage they inflicted on one another in 1 and 2...incredible damage...
i`m absolutely sure that vasquez is convinced that he can out-tough marquez and i think he`ll pressure marquez from the opening bell....
and i can`t imagine marquez dancing around for a full 12....he doesn`t fight like that...even though he can make vasquez miss,over 12,thats a very tough thing to do(i never thought that corrales/castillo could possible go the distance,but it almost did)...
and after seeing both these fights within 24 hours of one another,it`s very scary when you contemplate the hurt they put on one another...neither guy is "young"....
you just can`t fight that many fights like this after having a long career and being in your late 20`s early 30`s...
i`m really curious to see how marquez approaches this....
gonna be another great fight while it lasts...
sponge...mentally,vasquez has a considerable edge after watching part II,imo..it never ceases to amaze me how much 4 lousy pounds can mean with these little guys...
just watched the second one....and i`m scared....scared by how much i`d forgotten about these 2 great fights (which i didn`t have on tape)...and scared about my "over" and "marquez" wagers...
this time,marquez,flush with the 1st stoppage victory stood in and exchanged way,way to much.......
and again ,he did very well early...he cut vasquez badly over both eyes....i mean badly...cuts like those,in a different fight,could easily have caused a stoppage...eyelid/eyebrow,lots of blood(again,i had forgotten how brutal this one was)...
marquez was ahead early,again,imo....and he stunned vasquez once or twice...buckled his knees...but,it seems that vasquez recovers very quickly....
vasquez was jabbing and following the jab in from the jump in this fight...he paid for it,took punishment and kept on coming....but,he inflicted much more early punishment on marquez in this one....marquez was lumped up,bruised and thoroughly beaten by the 6th....
it was a rough,physical fight...quite a few borderline low blows and some heads clashing........
vasquez put marquez down with one of those snapping left hooks in the third...and when vasquez catches marquez and hurts him,theres real residual damage....it seems to diminish marquez....
it was back and forth from there...ebb and flow....but,vasquez,limited skill-wise(in comparison to marquez,imo)just seems to be so mentally and physically tough....
marquez ain`t winning a war of attrition with vasquez....he`s to tough and to strong...
i do think that marquez "could" stop vasquez...he could cut him,break his nose again....he COULD outbox him if he stayed to a strict gameplan...he really had his way with vasquez the first 5 rounds in the first fight.....but,that would be difficult to do for a full 12...
marquez wins most of the exchanges until he starts to wear down...it`s just that vasquez` punches hurt marquez more.....
if he`s smart,he`ll box early and try and do damage in the first 4 or 5 rounds,like the 1st fight, (without taking the early damage he took in part II)....maybe cut him,break him up a little...
i can`t imagine beristain not realizing that marquez just can`t stand in with vasquez for 12.....it`s like marquez is "doing in" vasquez with the old "death by a thousand cuts",while fighting vasquez is like playing russian roulette...
i see no reason why,vasquez won`t steam ahead in III......he seems just fine with the idea that he`ll have to take some punishment to give some...
i`ve already got marquez at +170 and over 7.5 at +115.....what i`ll have to do is wait for a "vasquez inside the distance prop" to protect myself...see if i can manipulate it in a way that i can win a couple bucks one way or the other...i can`t believe that the klit./barney waltz will get a million props and this just gets the side and over...
liked the +170,but,i didn`t like the beating that marquez took in the second fight.....
how`s it go down?....in order of liklihood,i`d say:
1)vasquez wears down marquez somewhere within the mid-to later rounds...(it`s tough to be specific because i don`t know for sure how marquez will approach this)....if marquez stands in again,he`ll have a tough road to hoe....
2)marquez cuts vasquez.....
i just don`t see how this thing goes 12...considering the damage they inflicted on one another in 1 and 2...incredible damage...
i`m absolutely sure that vasquez is convinced that he can out-tough marquez and i think he`ll pressure marquez from the opening bell....
and i can`t imagine marquez dancing around for a full 12....he doesn`t fight like that...even though he can make vasquez miss,over 12,thats a very tough thing to do(i never thought that corrales/castillo could possible go the distance,but it almost did)...
and after seeing both these fights within 24 hours of one another,it`s very scary when you contemplate the hurt they put on one another...neither guy is "young"....
you just can`t fight that many fights like this after having a long career and being in your late 20`s early 30`s...
i`m really curious to see how marquez approaches this....
gonna be another great fight while it lasts...
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