California's new single payer health care bill for 2010, SB810

[Duff Miver]

A lot of great points. Yes, insurance companies do compete price wise (especially in the individual marketplace), but you are correct, doctors and hospitals don't. This is where the increased cost issues are, in my opinion - nobody knows the price or shops for price.

In many cases, people can't really shop price in medical care, since smaller communities often have only one hospital.

And no hospital I know of, anywhere, has a price list you can see prior to treatment. Few physicians will reveal their prices in advance.

Comparison shop? Nonsense. These aren't grocery stores.

All for-profit insurers pay more for medical services than does Medicare. Insurance company premiums are controlled by State agencies, and they are allowed to charge premiums which provide them with a "reasonable" profit, calculated as a percentage of their total revenue. Thus insurance companies are motivated to prefer ever higher costs, which they then use as justification for higher premiums and profits.

So how do you shop price? Tell us how.

Of course you defend insurance companies. You're hardly unbiased, eh?

Medicare knows how to shop for price. They have enough insureds to say to most hospitals and physicians - "Take it or leave it."

Give Medicare another 200 million insureds and they can say that to all providers.

You'll need another job, Mags. One less salary for us to pay.

 

[Duff Miver]

Here are a few facts you can consider:

We now have single payer, not-for-profit coverage for about 50 million Americans - Medicare, TriiCare, Veterans Administration.



This is from a thread you just started Duff.

http://www.madjacksports.com/forum/showthread.php?t=376691

First example is why the VA doesn't work and second is why Medicare doesn't work. Thanks for the help in proving the point of why single payor doesn't work.

There are some faults with Medicare and the VA, but they're far, far better than private insurance which dumps the sick and the poor, the very people who need insurance the most.

Where's your great for-profit insurance for those with pre-ex conditions, disabilities which prevent them from working, for those who are laid off, stricken with horrible diseases, or work for minimum slave labor wages?

Private Insurance's answer: Fukkem!

 

[layinwood]

There are some faults with Medicare and the VA, but they're far, far better than private insurance which dumps the sick and the poor, the very people who need insurance the most.

Where's your great for-profit insurance for those with pre-ex conditions, disabilities which prevent them from working, for those who are laid off, stricken with horrible diseases, or work for minimum slave labor wages?

Private Insurance's answer: Fukkem!

Now you're getting me Duff! I'm not saying private insurance is perfect but why do you want to throw us from one broken way to a different kind of broken? It just doesn't make any sense to do it. Let them come up with some good ways to fix what we have first(and that includes private as well as what you call our current single payor VA and Medicare)


For the record, I don't like Limbaugh so know what the F you're talking about before you open your mouth.

 

[layinwood]

In many cases, people can't really shop price in medical care, since smaller communities often have only one hospital.

And no hospital I know of, anywhere, has a price list you can see prior to treatment. Few physicians will reveal their prices in advance.

Comparison shop? Nonsense. These aren't grocery stores.


That's not true at all. You can call any patient financial counselor at a hospital and get their cash price. You can also do the same for doc offices.

 

[Chadman]

layinwood, how many people can really do this, to any successful degree. You have something wrong with you, you're told what needs to happen or something bad will happen, and you do it. Most of the time when a hospital is involved, it's not a long term planned thing, it's something new, or immediate, that requires quick attention, and no shopping. And again, there's only one shop in town for most people, or at least a lot of people, so either you pay it, or you do without.

Finally, most of the time the price can only be figured out AFTER a procedure or event. How can I call up and say, hey, I don't feel good, bad pain in my heart... how much will this cost me, what doctor is on duty, what does he charge, how much will the meds be, etc?

 

[Chadman]

And I do think when it comes to tests, lab work, etc., this is an area where tort reform and added cost per patient comes into it. I don't blame physicians for ordering extra tests to make sure of things, to protect themselves from law suits.

This is all intertwined, and people are protecting themselves - except regular people, who aren't protected at all.

 

[Duff Miver]

That's not true at all. You can call any patient financial counselor at a hospital and get their cash price. You can also do the same for doc offices.

That's a bald-faced lie, an outright falsehood.

Go ahead, call any hospital you like, and ask them a simple question like "What's your best price, all in, complete and out the door, for an uncomplicated laproscopic cholecystectomy?"

That's a very simple and straightforward surgery, one they do all the time.

Better yet, make your inquiry in writing, or by email, so you can post the results here.

We'll be waiting for the answer this time next year.

 

[Duff Miver]

Here's another question for you, layinwood -

If private, for-profit healthcare is so damned good, why is it that -

We have the highest cost per capita health care of any nation on earth?

We have the greatest number of uninsured of any modern developed Nation on earth?

We have the poorest outcomes (infant death, life span) of any modern developed nation on earth?

Go ahead, give us one of your canned Limbaugh responses.

 

[DOGS THAT BARK]

Here are a few facts you can consider:

We now have single payer, not-for-profit coverage for about 50 million Americans - Medicare, TriiCare, Veterans Administration.

Those programs have overhead costs of about 3%, compared to for-profit overhead costs (advertising, dividends, profits, multi-million $ salaries) of about 30%.

The not-for-profit programs negotiate lower prices with hospitals and physicians.

Non-profit hospitals add about 50% to the bills of paying patients to cover the cost of care they provide to the uninsured.

If health care were universal and non-profit, hospitals and physicians could reduce their fees by 1/3 because they'd get paid every time.

The insured now pay for the uninsured through higher premiums.

These look like Gumby/Huffington facts to me--

The only fact you have to overcome to get 100% agreement on Gov ran healthcare is this--

Unfunded obligations
The U.S. government is committed under current law to mandatory payments for programs such as Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security. The GAO projects that payouts for these programs will significantly exceed tax revenues over the next 75 years. The Medicare Part A (hospital insurance) payouts already exceed program tax revenues and Social Security payroll taxes fully cover payouts only until 2017. These deficits require funding from other tax sources or borrowing.<SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-GAO_Citizens_Guide_40-1>[41]</SUP> The present value of these deficits or unfunded obligations is an estimated $41 trillion. This is the amount that would have to be set aside during 2008 such that the principal and interest would pay for the unfunded commitments through 2082. Approximately $7 trillion relates to Social Security, while $34 trillion relates to Medicare and Medicaid. In other words, health care programs are nearly five times as serious a funding challenge as Social Security. Adding this to the national debt during September 2008 of nearly $10 trillion and other federal commitments brings the total obligations to nearly $53 trillion.

Just explain how these wonderfully efficiently ran fed programs are trillions in debt-But I believe we went through that before
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[layinwood]

That's a bald-faced lie, an outright falsehood.

Go ahead, call any hospital you like, and ask them a simple question like "What's your best price, all in, complete and out the door, for an uncomplicated laproscopic cholecystectomy?"

That's a very simple and straightforward surgery, one they do all the time.

Better yet, make your inquiry in writing, or by email, so you can post the results here.

We'll be waiting for the answer this time next year.

Duff, I'll make you a bet. You tell me the hospital and I'll call and find out what the best price I can get by paying cash. Now, just so you will know this won't include the op Doc. He would need to be called separately because it's a separate bill.

Now here's the deal. If I can find out the price then you have to leave MJs forever(or atleast make up another stupid name and join again). If I can't find it out the I'll leave. Deal?

 

[Duff Miver]

Duff, I'll make you a bet. You tell me the hospital and I'll call and find out what the best price I can get by paying cash. Now, just so you will know this won't include the op Doc. He would need to be called separately because it's a separate bill.

Now here's the deal. If I can find out the price then you have to leave MJs forever(or atleast make up another stupid name and join again). If I can't find it out the I'll leave. Deal?

Challenge accepted.

That's a very fair offer. Here, call this number (864) 560-6000, Spartanburg Regional Hospital.

Actually they may be able to include the doc if he's one of their paid staff, but if not, I'll let you off on that.

Be forewarned, neither you or they can fake it. I have a copy of the bill from them for exactly that surgery which I recently had. It shows both their best cash price and the amount they accepted from Medicare, to the penny.

Like any quote you might get, whether from a painter or a car tire shop, or a restaurant, get it in writing, complete, all-in, out-the-door. I'll then post their actual bill which shows both their cash price and Medicare price, although the Medicare price is irrelevant, since anyone can look it up on-line.

Still, I'll even give you some slack. Get within 5% on their cash price and I'll call you the winner.

You're a gambling man, layinwood. Go for it. I'll honor the bet if you win, and expect you to honor the bet if (when) you lose.

And if (when) you're unable to deliver, I expect you to hit the road.

How long do you need? A day? A week? A month?

 

[layinwood]

Duff, I just left a vm for the appropriate department. They closed at 5eastern.

Did yours include the doc fee or not? I want to be asking something that makes it apples to apples. Also, there where no complication, correct?

 

[layinwood]

Here's the one area you and I aren't in agreement. I didn't say I could get the price in writing. I said I can get the price and I'll do it. I'll post what they tell me, if I can get it in writing then I will but if not and I'm within 5% then it counts.

 

[Duff Miver]

Duff, I just left a vm for the appropriate department. They closed at 5eastern.

Did yours include the doc fee or not? I want to be asking something that makes it apples to apples. Also, there where no complication, correct?

No, no complications at all. Absolutely textbook straightforward, 40 minutes in the OR.

Mine included the doc fee since he's a hospital employee, but you can include it or leave out out, whatever they quote you.

 

[Duff Miver]

Here's the one area you and I aren't in agreement. I didn't say I could get the price in writing. I said I can get the price and I'll do it. I'll post what they tell me, if I can get it in writing then I will but if not and I'm within 5% then it counts.

I can't imagine doing business of $5 figures without a written quote. Hell, I wouldn't spend $300 on a set of tires without a quote. Still, if verbal is all you can get, I'll accept that and give you 5% leeway.

Good luck. You'll need it.

 

[Trampled Underfoot]

Here's the one area you and I aren't in agreement. I didn't say I could get the price in writing. I said I can get the price and I'll do it. I'll post what they tell me, if I can get it in writing then I will but if not and I'm within 5% then it counts.

LOL :mj07:

 

[Spytheweb]

LOL, this should be interesting.
It creates 2.6 million jobs but how many jobs are lost because of it? This kind of sounds like some Obama math.

new "Single Payer/Medicare for All: An Economic StimulusPlan for the Nation" study releases toady by the National NursesOrganizing Committee/California Nurses Association, such a reform would providea major stimulus for the U.S. economy by creating 2.6 million new jobs andinfusing $317 billion in new business and public revenues into the economy.This reform would, according to the study released today, add $100 billion inwages to the currently sputtering U.S. economy. Indeed, notes the NNOC/CAN, thenumber of jobs created by a single-payer system, expanding and upgradingMedicare to cover everyone, parallels almost exactly the total job loss in 2008."These dramatic new findings document for the first time that a singlepayer system could not only solve our healthcare crisis, but also substantiallycontribute to putting America back to work and assisting the economicrecovery," says NNOC/CAN c o-president Geri Jenkins, RN. Specifically,notes Jenkins, expanding Medicare to include the uninsured, and those onMedicaid or employer-sponsored health plans, and expanding coverage for thosewith limited Medicare, would:

1. Create 2,613,495million new permanent good-paying jobs (slightly exceeding the number of jobslost in 2008) -- and jobs that are not easily shipped overseas 2. Boost theeconomy with $317 billion in increased business and public revenues 3. Add $100billion in employee compensation 4. Infuse public budgets with $44 billion innew tax revenues

 

[Spytheweb]

I'm curious, has anyone seen any stories, reports, studies, etc., on how much a single payer or government option will cost the average person? Meaning, is there anything to compare what the average cost to an individual or individual/employer combo for healthcare now, compared to what a proposed bill (any of them) would cost the same people in taxes or fees in that scenario? I realize different plans have different ideas, like high earners paying more, etc. And I realize single payer is quite different from a government option.

There's no doubt the monies have to come from somewhere, for both. We know that the current costs of healthcare (the real issue IMO) are causing big problems for nearly everyone, whether they realize it or not (meaning, if their employer is paying most of theirs, they love their current plan, while their employer is getting killed by it). But I'm wondering how (for instance) the above plan will work to create all those new jobs with increased spending. Quite simply (and maybe stupidly) wouldn't adding spending and creating a bunch of new things add to the overall costs we face now, no matter what system we're using? And in the above story, do we really need additional "healthcare delivery", whatever that means? Does that simply mean additional coverage and services to people who don't or can't afford insurance?

This is a serious question, I hope it doesn't turn into a BS mudslinging Youtube rant. I just don't have anything to really go on when it comes to comparisons.

How much would H.R. 676 cost consumers?

Posted by JDPriestly in General Discussion
Tue Jul 28th 2009, 12:40 PM

Currently, the average family of four covered by an employer-provided health care plan spends roughly $4,225 on health care each year, including premiums, services, prescription drugs and supplies. This figure does not include the annual Medicare payroll tax, currently at 1.45%. Under the plan created by H.R. 676, a family of four making the median income of $56,200 would pay about $2,700 in payroll tax for all health care costs. No deductibles, no co-pays, no worrying about catastrophic coverage.

Employers who provide health insurance currently pay, on average, 74% of employee health premiums. For a family of four, the average employer share is $8,510 per year. Under H.R. 676, the employer pays a 4.75% payroll tax, not a premium to health insurance companies. For an employee making the median family income of $56,200 annually, the employer would pay roughly $2,700.

This is about $225.00 a month.

http://www.johnconyers.com/hr676faq

 

[Spytheweb]

I don't have time to talk about all of your statements but what will change about the last one? Won't we still have to end up covering illegals in some form? Maybe it won't be thru higher premuims but somewhere it's coming out of our pockets so what's changing?

Illegals will get ER care, only because it's the right thing to do. I would like to see when illegals come for care, afterward put them on a bus and take to the border and drop them off.

This is not about illegals, but Americans, their health and their economy.

When Americans go to europe and get hurt they're not charged for treatment.

 

[Spytheweb]

Exactly Duff, there's no healthcare of illegals. You said hospitals add 50% to their bills to cover for the uninsured, how much of that is for illegals? I'm glad you say ND has virtually no illegals, now lets talk about all of the other states that do. There's still going to be a big cost there and it doesn't go away with single payor.

You get I.C.E. to watch over ERs.