McCain thoughts...

mabus

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I have no idea if "republicans" are "tough" or not. I know that I am not "tough" as they define it. I assume that most republican candidates are "tough" on illegal immigration because most republicans are themselves "tough" on the issue. Otherwise, they would not be. That is why McCain is getting hammered for his "amnesty" position.
So, I suppose that I do really think that Republicans as a party are "tough" on the issue.

I mean, if they as a party were more pro-"amnesty", do you not think the candidates would reflect that?
 

mabus

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And I don't think the republican base is any more "ignorant" than the democratic base for the record.
Both bases are ignorant in my opinion
 

Jabberwocky

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Mabus,

The republicans controlled both houses and the executive for 6 years. What did they do to address immigration? They are far more interested in cheap labor. Let's be honest.
 

mabus

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Why do you think they did nothing?
Because they would not get re-elected because the base will not accept amnesty.

Look, I think the base is wrong too, but if you think its because they like cheap labor more than they like getting re-elected-i think you are mistaken.
 

DOGS THAT BARK

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Mabus,

The republicans controlled both houses and the executive for 6 years. What did they do to address immigration? They are far more interested in cheap labor. Let's be honest.

Maybe you can assist them and tell them how to get around liberals ignoring federal law with their sanctuary cities.
If I put up list of sanctuary cities (as with the list of most miserable cities)--ya think we might have same common denominator ;)
--can you see a pattern--yet?
 

djv

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Let's see how the old guy holds up. He already looks tired. We don't need a old prez. Last night at the debate he couldn't even sit up streight half the time. And when ever Paul spoke he dam near was laughing. He can't stand being told he's
wrong. Remind you of some one else. We cant take another 8 years of that chit.
 

Jabberwocky

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Maybe you can assist them and tell them how to get around liberals ignoring federal law with their sanctuary cities.
If I put up list of sanctuary cities (as with the list of most miserable cities)--ya think we might have same common denominator ;)
--can you see a pattern--yet?

DTB, the Republicans had a majority in both houses and the executive, but they couldn't get past those pesky liberals?

:mj07: :mj07: :mj07: :mj07: :mj07: :mj07: :mj07:

You truly believe that the GOP cares about "protecting our borders"? Have you ever read anything about the North American Union? Have you ever heard of Pat Buchanan?

I lean to the left, but damn I miss the day when republicans were conservatives, and not sell out shills.
 

StevieD

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America should jump all over mcCain for his obvious lies during the debates. Everytime he says that Romney supported a Time Table the old boy is outright lying. Romney supported a timetable with the Iraqi Govornment. A time table of goals. Something we obviously need. Is mcCain just planning on staying there forever without any benchmarks? I think it shows a lot of who the press favors because they have not buried McCain with his obvious lies. That's just one of his lies. We don't need this guy.
 

smurphy

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By the way...
Am I the only "republican" who does not want to, nor thinks it is prudent, to kick out every illegal immigrant in the nation?
First of all, it will not fvcking happen-and we all know that. So anyone who is dumb enough to think the Fed Gvmt can execute on expelling millions of people from America needs to get their head out of their ass.
Secondly, I dont want them to be kicked out. Shit, I live in the South with thousands of Hispanics around me, so dont say I am living in a different world. These are people too, and when Romney tonight was talking about waiting until school ends to kick these familes out of the country-what compassion.
Frankly, I am a pretty selfish prick of an individual at times, so dont think I have a soft heart.
But it is impractical to kick out millions of illegals (I wont even start on the economy either...) and I think it is the wrong thing to do morally. Criminals is one thing, hard working, honest "illegals" are another. Yeah, I know they broke the law to get here, and we are a nation of laws, okay.
We keep the ones who are here, here-unless they have a criminal record. Then we close down the border and that, my friends, is a possibility. Kicking out millions and millions of people, is not. So I am kind of pissed everyone is convinced that just kicking everyone out is the easy and right answer. Anyways, JMHO

Cheers, Mabus! I've been making this point for a while, to the ire of both sides.
 

mabus

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Why thank you smurphy.
Unfortunately, the GOP is hell bent on NO AMNESTY and enough people are rallying around that mantra to make it stick. What a giant waste of time it is to get legislation passed with the main goal of kicking every illegal immigrant out of the country.
If we would have come to our senses long ago and properly and intelligently addressed the problem, this would not be a big issue.
But who in the hell would want to do that? Not elected officials who would not have anything to run on despite "securing the borders" and NO AMNESTY. Shit, Tancredo made his entire presidential run (all be it a short, pathetic one) based upon that mantra. All half the border state/southern republicans running for office have to do it have a no amnesty policy and they will get large volumes of support.
Ok, I just realized I hi-jacked my own thread to talk about illegal immigration, so I am going to stop rambling now.
 

StevieD

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Is it lost on every Republican that they had 6 years of anything they wanted. If they wanted to stop the illegals there was no better time that after 9-11. But the "tough" Republicans in power chose not to secure our borders or deal with the illegal's at all. And still they run around claiming they are tough on the issue. What a joke.
 

hedgehog

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"Am I the only "republican" who does not want to, nor thinks it is prudent, to kick out every illegal immigrant in the nation?"

Mabus, do you really think that the Republicans are "tough" on the immigration issue? It's just a rallying cry to galvanize their ignorant base.


who would mow your yard? :shrug:
 

gardenweasel

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I agree with Paul on more issues than any other candidate (except I disagree with him on the war in the sense that I do not think we can leave now, he is right about how we are meddling in others affairs too much, but we do have interests worldwide..anyways I am rambling)
But Paul has no chance of winning the nomination, unfortunately. I may still vote my conscious in the primary if the race in my state is not close, just to make myself feel better-but if it is close, I think my vote will have to go to McCain over Romney right now.

I actually agree with Romney on policy more than McCain-I just think McCain has a shot nationally while Romney wont make it.


By the way...
Am I the only "republican" who does not want to, nor thinks it is prudent, to kick out every illegal immigrant in the nation?
First of all, it will not fvcking happen-and we all know that. So anyone who is dumb enough to think the Fed Gvmt can execute on expelling millions of people from America needs to get their head out of their ass.
Secondly, I dont want them to be kicked out. Shit, I live in the South with thousands of Hispanics around me, so dont say I am living in a different world. These are people too, and when Romney tonight was talking about waiting until school ends to kick these familes out of the country-what compassion.
Frankly, I am a pretty selfish prick of an individual at times, so dont think I have a soft heart.
But it is impractical to kick out millions of illegals (I wont even start on the economy either...) and I think it is the wrong thing to do morally. Criminals is one thing, hard working, honest "illegals" are another. Yeah, I know they broke the law to get here, and we are a nation of laws, okay.
We keep the ones who are here, here-unless they have a criminal record. Then we close down the border and that, my friends, is a possibility. Kicking out millions and millions of people, is not. So I am kind of pissed everyone is convinced that just kicking everyone out is the easy and right answer. Anyways, JMHO

1)mccain has no shot....he`s old...he`s a lousy debater(you`ll see this one on one with either the pantsuit or the empty suit)...

mccain hangs out with"the left", with whom he shares great disdain for those who work hard to get ahead, raise their families, create wealth & pay taxes....he`s teddy kennedy`s pocket-boy....

his OPEN BORDERS policies will hurt working americans.....his ignorance of economics, since he came from & married money, WILL export more american jobs, especially when he follows al gore`s prescription that we SLOW OUR ECONOMY, impose "green" taxes on ourselves but don't demand them from greater polluters like china, india, russia.....a recipe for disaster..

2)how many more decades of amnesty will we have before somebody forces both parties to do what neither is willing to do(close the border)?

3)paul?...no country in the modern world uses a finite precious metal as it`s currency standard...and his isolationist policies aren`t feasible in todays globalist society...
 

mabus

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1) McCain has more of a shot than anyone else from the Rep. party. Simply because he is more "liberal" than the conservative republican candidates.
I ask this: Who will appeal more to independents, Hillary or McCain?
If you say Hillary, you are an idiot. If you say McCain, you are right. The trouble with McCain is that many conservatives do not like him. But I would be willing to wager that many republicans, when push comes to shove in November, vote for McCain when they see Hillary as the alternative. And for the stubborn republicans who refuse (and would rather hand the election to Hillary), the independent vote will be enough to make up the slack. People are not wanting another conservative republican president, sorry-that is what has no shot.
2) there is nothing wrong with closing the border (there is something wrong with building a fvcking fence), but that is not the issue regarding amnesty. the issue with amnesty is what to do with everyone who is here already, and the people (conservative right) saying that we need to round up millions of people and send them back to Central and South America do not understand a. how that will never be passed through Congress, and b. how the federal government would never be able to tackle such an initiative (see any large scale government project failure in the last half century), and c. how, like it or fvcking not, many of these people ARE "doing the jobs American's do not want to do". Ask any one who owns a mall cleaning company, a landscape company, a construction company, etc.
Not that Americans WOULD NOT do the jobs, but the fact that immigrants will do the jobs for less pay, simply will not change. Americans have a higher standard of living than many people in Latin America are accustomed to (I lived in Latin America, so I know what I am talking about before you start calling me names), so they fact that they do not have a color TV and may live 6 deep in a 3 bedroom house is not a big deal to them as it is to many americans, so thus they are able to be better off here with lower wages than they would be in Latin America, etc. you know where I am going with this.
Now, If you want to talk about punishing employers, that is one thing-that is a viable answer to some of the problems. That coupled with a path to citizenship for non-criminals, and secure the border-what is the big deal? what is wrong with that? Do people not like Hispanics or something?
3)Like I said, Paul has no shot at winning, and for good reason-I just think his domestic policy philosophy is where the rep. party should be, and was at one point. But alas, no longer.

Basically, for me-McCain is not the perfect canidate.
I especially hate his view of global warming-but I can swallow my pride and vote for the most electable vs. Hillary, that is just what I think I will have to do this time around.
Do you really think Romney would do better vs. Hillary? If so why, because I am not seeing it at all.
 

DOGS THAT BARK

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I agree Mabus on McCain being strong among independents--which is usually the deciding factor-however this race is horse of diff color in my view--and will be determined by whose party is turned off most by their candidate and will stay home.
Lots of conservatives very disatisfied with McCain politics--how many will stay home-
--and Dems will hinge on minority vote.If H gets nod many blacks may be turned of--and MCain could pull possibly 35% of Hispanic vote maybe more if Obama is in equation.
Tough call for now IMO
 

mabus

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I see what you are saying DTB-But do you think conservatives would stay home in a McCain vs. Hillary race? I just think their disdain for the Clintons would be too much for them to just sit back and watch...

Regarding minorities. Hispanics are now the largest minority in America, and McCain pulled more than 50% of the Hispanic vote in the Florida primary- So I think he may do extremely well with Hispanics in the general as well.

Agreed though, it is a tough one.
 

mabus

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Good article talking about McCain from todays WSJ:


The McCain Calculus
February 1, 2008; Page A14
John McCain's 96-year-old mother gave the press corps a laugh when she told Republican voters they should just "hold their noses" and vote for her son. Give Mama McCain credit for some straight talk.

When voters turn out on Tuesday, they'll likely end the long Republican primary. Taxes, health care, values, terrorism -- all these will play a role in the relative McCain and Romney votes. But for those who choose purely on electability, Roberta McCain has a point.


You don't have to spend much time on the trail to pick up the deep disregard certain Republicans have for Mr. McCain. It isn't just his heresies on climate change or campaign finance; it's his attitude. His righteousness gets under the skin. Some could never bring themselves to vote for him, even with a gas mask.

And yet, looking at this from the stratosphere, the operative word for any McCain nomination is still "potential." For all his flaws, many top Republicans are concluding the Arizonan has the best shot of winning a Presidential election that many had figured was doomed. Their calculation goes like this:

In a race that will be fought on national security, Mr. McCain is one of the few public figures with the potential to convince Americans to stick with Iraq, and in turn neutralize the war. This would also boost congressional Republicans. On the broader question of security, he'd cut Hillary Clinton's "experience" down to size. He'd arguably run national security rings around the Illinois rookie, and that's before Barack Obama got a chance to make another foreign policy gaffe.

Mr. McCain has the potential to swing critical independents. This would matter against any Democrat, but in particular against Mr. Obama. New Hampshire Independents got to choose their primary last month, and the early betting was that they'd flock to the Democrats and Mr. Obama. In fact, they made up a greater share of the Republican primary vote than they did in 2000, drawn by Mr. McCain.

A related point: Mr. McCain's independent support is in part a function of his ability to manage the Bush question. As Mr. Romney has walked a tightrope, unsure whether to embrace or decry an unpopular president, Mr. McCain has simply pointed to his own record. Voters loyal to President Bush see in Mr. McCain a man who stood firm on the Iraq war. Voters who dislike Mr. Bush see a man who criticized the president on the conduct of that war. This is useful.

He also has the potential to stem the flood of Hispanics from the GOP. His new immigration strategy was on display in this week's debate: He'll talk about the importance of securing the border, and say no more. With this he hopes to mollify conservatives, and will leave it to others to remind Hispanics of his record. Florida was a useful test case, with Mr. McCain winning more than half the Hispanic vote. Another quarter went to Rudy Giuliani, who has since thrown in with Mr. McCain. Mr. Romney got 14%.

Mr. McCain has a better opportunity to make a Clinton competition about character and believability. He's no flip-flopper, and his duty-honor-loyalty persona would stand in stark contrast to both Clintons. He has a better opportunity to make an Obama race about core beliefs. Like or dislike Mr. McCain's views, Americans know what they are. Mr. Obama has been a cipher.

Most important, Mr. McCain retains the potential to make inroads with those who've had to hold their noses just to read this far. He does have a real problem with the GOP base. The key difference between Mr. McCain in 2000 and 2008 is that he knows it, and appears intent on making amends. Watch for him to be as pure as the New Hampshire snow on the two core issues of taxes and judges. His campaign has thrown its all into collecting establishment endorsements who will make his case with their state faithful. Supply-side icons such as Jack Kemp and Phil Gramm will try to soothe the feistier organizations in the GOP camp.

Mr. McCain obviously also has plenty of potential to blow it. He can no longer afford to allow his advisers to goad him into fights with fellow Republicans. He's going to have to learn to talk economics in an election where it will vie with national security for importance. Right now he looks about as easy talking taxes or health-care costs as he does sitting on a cactus.

This is where Mr. Romney would have the advantage. Economics is his lifeblood. The debates have shown him gifted at explaining complicated issues. Why will free-market health care reforms lower prices? Mitt can tell you. What are the day-to-day costs of a climate program? Mitt can explain. He has a knack, too, for relating these policies back to core principles.

The problem is many voters doubt he himself believes in those principles. On paper, in a debate, Mr. Romney is perfecto. He's tapped into the exact mood of the GOP on every issue (he could probably tell you boxers versus briefs). This, paradoxically, is his problem. Voters have memories. They know today's perfect Mr. Romney is different from yesterday's flawed Massachusetts governor.

As a nominee, Mr. Romney would also have to develop a compelling narrative. George W. Bush brought compassionate conservatism and a big tax cut. Mr. McCain's promise is security in a time of global threat. Mr. Obama and Mrs. Clinton will both claim to be the tonic for Republican fatigue. After Iowa, the Romney campaign recalibrated to "Washington is broken; it's time for change." But what change, and how? Barack Obama has been successful because implicit in his change message (whether you buy it or not) is transformational politics, a new era of bipartisan cooperation. Mr. Romney is simply promising he'll do better at pushing conservative ideas through a Congress that is even more hostile than the one that stoppered Mr. Bush. This is a tough sell.

Both Mr. Romney and Mr. McCain would undoubtedly benefit from a Hillary Clinton candidacy, as Republicans rallied against a Billary return. But foolish is any Republican who thinks he can win on the strength of animus toward Mrs. Clinton alone. Elections are won on turnout, and that's a function of enthusiasm for a nominee. Whoever wins on Tuesday has hard work to do.
 
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