No,
what he says about Reagan is not true. It's revisionist like almost everything else he posts.
obama`s plan to gut america`s military....
- Thread starter gardenweasel
- Start date
No,
what he says about Reagan is not true. It's revisionist like almost everything else he posts.
Earl Hopper has been widely discredited for the stories that he tells. I'd be wary of believing things that he says.
5 May 2002.
LT Earl Hopper's remains were identified and the identification was
approved by the Secretary of the Air Force on 16 January 2002.
Note that the phony article carried on MIA "activist" sites talks about "Parents Earl and Betty Hopper." There is more to it than that. For many years, Earl Hopper, Sr. openly carried on an affair with a woman named Patty Skelly. Hopper and Skelly are the sole members of an organization they call Task Force Omega -- TFO consists of Skelly, Hopper, and an Internet connection, though they would have you believe that they are legion. Hopper and Skelly met in the mid-1980s and soon were an item among MIA families -- basically, old Earl was using MIA family activities as an excuse to bonk Patty -- all the while his wife, Earl, Jr.'s mother, Betty -- was fully aware of this but was powerless to do anything about it. While I was assigned to the DIA POW-MIA Office, I spoke at many family member meetings, some of them attended by Hopper, Skelly, and Betty Hopper. After-hours at these meetings, some of the family members would talk to me informally and many of them were upset with the way Hopper and Skelly were making no attempt to hide their affair and with the way Hopper was treating Betty. Betty Hopper developed Alzheimer's and died in 1998 or 1999 -- I forget which -- and Hopper and Skelly are now married.
Hopper claims to have extensive experience in Army intelligence. This is typical of his lies and misrepresentations. In his last job in the Army, Hopper was assigned as Director of Intelligence and Security at a small Army base -- this is a typical retirement assignment because it requires no real activity, leaving the incumbent free to concentrate on retiring. Such positions have no real intelligence duties -- but Hopper would have you believe that he was a colleague of Agent 007. In his dreams. One DIA admiral, a man with long experience in the intelligence field, and a man who had considerable dealings with Hopper, gave me this assessment of Earl Hopper, Sr: "He couldn't pour piss out of a boot with the instructions written on the sole."
Now I understand from a couple of folks who have received e-mail from her that Patty Skelly -- who did not meet Earl, Sr. until fifteen years AFTER Earl, Jr. was lost -- is sending e-mail signing herself as Earl, Jr.'s "stepmother." And I'm the King of England.
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Marine Wouldn't bother on issue--this is bout 3 time he's brought up something about McCain/military and has yet to have 1st person acknowledge.
Believe he will be crusader of one on that issue.
I stopped by the website mentioned--looks like it was built by 8th grader--only thing proffessional was disclaimer to cover their ass.
Disclaimer
Vietnam Veterans Against John McCain (VVAJM) provides external links for its readers as a convenience and for informational purposes only. The links do not constitute an endorsement or an approval by VVAJM. VVAJM bears no responsibility for the accuracy, legality or content of the external sites or for that of subsequent links
Believe he will be crusader of one on that issue.
I stopped by the website mentioned--looks like it was built by 8th grader--only thing proffessional was disclaimer to cover their ass.
Disclaimer
Vietnam Veterans Against John McCain (VVAJM) provides external links for its readers as a convenience and for informational purposes only. The links do not constitute an endorsement or an approval by VVAJM. VVAJM bears no responsibility for the accuracy, legality or content of the external sites or for that of subsequent links
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thanks marine
let me google this Hopper and see what I can find on him.
It has been on the news that McCain has apologized for the propaganda stuff and his Dad
before he died said he did not hold that against hm. :shrug:
let me google this Hopper and see what I can find on him.
It has been on the news that McCain has apologized for the propaganda stuff and his Dad
before he died said he did not hold that against hm. :shrug:
........................................................Marine Wouldn't bother on issue--this is bout 3 time he's brought up something about McCain/military and has yet to have 1st person acknowledge.
Believe he will be crusader of one on that issue.
Its not worse than someone saying Obama
is a muslim and went to a muslim school.
Or stating Hamas is voting for Obama. :SIB
They dont have first person. Why don't you question them Kentucky biscuit.
Yeh I thought as much dipstick
Yeh its going to get nasty before Nov.
I just want the truth.
Then I can make the best decision based on that who I will vote for.
I just want the truth.
Then I can make the best decision based on that who I will vote for.
Sometimes tough to seperate fact from fiction--Scott
--and yes will get nasty before Nov--
--would expect a lot of bull shit to come out on candidates and would expect O to get more than his share --mainly because of nature of him being unknown--where McCain has been hashed over many times in past--and not a lot new they can bring.
--and yes will get nasty before Nov--
--would expect a lot of bull shit to come out on candidates and would expect O to get more than his share --mainly because of nature of him being unknown--where McCain has been hashed over many times in past--and not a lot new they can bring.
25 years ago?...we`re talking about obama trying to destroy our defenses and leave us at an enormous disadvantage TODAY!.....AND TOMORROW!...
don`t you believe what the man says out of his own mouth?... yet,you believe that he sat in a church and didn`t hear any of the anti-american,racist b.s. from 2 separate preachers over the span of 20 years?....
i know you`re not listening...and i know you`re a "moderate/centrist"(at least we`re finally putting that puppy to bed)...you ignore the 2 candidates that really are centrist/moderates...the actual candidates that reach across the aisle....and you support the most liberal candidate since jimmy carter...
so no more centrist/moderate obfuscation...o.k.?....
bock wants to leave us at a distinct disadvantage to the huge armies that china/russia and iran possess....our "edge" is our technological superiority.....hopefully it`s only out of ignorance of the facts and not not out of disdain for this country.....
the strategic defense initiative.....it`s working like a champ...so much so,that all these allies are signing on ........and the tests are going splendidly....much to the chagrin of our enemies...
but,no..we should leave ourselves "equally vulnerable" to appease our enemies....
i`m so happy i posted this information...and everyone that gives a damn had the opportunity to hear it right from obama`s own mouth...there can be no denials as to what he wants to do....
we have the proof right here...
"you know you`re right over the target when you catch the most flack"....
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25 years ago?...we`re talking about obama trying to destroy our defenses and leave us at an enormous disadvantage TODAY!.....AND TOMORROW!...
don`t you believe what the man says out of his own mouth?... yet,you believe that he sat in a church and didn`t hear any of the anti-american,racist b.s. from 2 separate preachers over the span of 20 years?....
i know you`re not listening...and i know you`re a "moderate/centrist"(at least we`re finally putting that puppy to bed)...you ignore the 2 candidates that really are centrist/moderates...the actual candidates that reach across the aisle....and you support the most liberal candidate since jimmy carter...
so no more centrist/moderate obfuscation...o.k.?....
bock wants to leave us at a distinct disadvantage to the huge armies that china/russia and iran possess....our "edge" is our technological superiority.....hopefully it`s only out of ignorance of the facts and not not out of disdain for this country.....
the strategic defense initiative.....it`s working like a champ...so much so,that all these allies are signing on ........and the tests are going splendidly....much to the chagrin of our enemies...
but,no..we should leave ourselves "equally vulnerable" to appease our enemies....
i`m so happy i posted this information...and everyone that gives a damn had the opportunity to hear it right from obama`s own mouth...there can be no denials as to what he wants to do....
we have the proof right here...
"you know you`re right over the target when you catch the most flack"....
Here's the bottom line, Weasel. You can mock the 'centrist' in me all you want, but frankly, there is one issue that is 80% of what I care about in this election.
That's Iraq. I suppose you can add the likelyhood, or lack thereof, that we'll get involved in another disastrous war with Iran.
A continuation of our current foreign policy, which McCain apparently intends to follow, would be ignorant.
I had no problem with W getting elected in 2000, despite all the nonsense down here and all the controversy. None. But Jesus Christ.
You can call me liberal because I want a change from the last 8 years. I don't care. And to be honest, I really don't care who the candidate is opposing the staus quo, just as in 2004, but let's give a different way a chance.
If all, or many, of your wild predictions come true, let's vote him out in 2012, but for f*cks sake, I have to question the sanity of anybody who wants to continue down this road.
The flyer has a caricature of a surly-looking McCain in a prison cell under the words, ?Hanoi Hilton Songbird.? The second page is headlined ?FACT SHEET: Military Record of John Sidney McCain III? and it begins with some accurate biographical information.
The flyer contains 1? pages of criticisms of McCain, but only a few support the accusation that he was helping the enemy:
? That he told his captors ?Okay, I?ll give you military information if you will take me to the hospital.?
? That the Hanoi news media reported he had given information about his flight, rescue ships and the order of U.S. attacks.
? That he broke the military code because he answered questions from a Spanish psychiatrist who had apparently been cooperating with the North Vietnamese.
There is some truth to these claims, but collectively they do not prove McCain was involved in ?collaborations with the enemy,? as the flyer alleges.
In his memoir Faith of My Fathers, McCain says that he initially offered the information because he was badly injured and afraid of dying. But, he wrote, ?I didn?t intend to keep my word.?
When he was later interrogated, McCain gave his ship?s name and squadron number and confirmed the target of his failed mission, he wrote. He also gave the names of the Green Bay Packers? offensive line and said they were members of his squadron.
Asked to identify future targets, he mentioned North Vietnamese cities that U.S. planes had already bombed.
George ?Bud? Day and Orson Swindle, fellow POWs, told PolitiFact that POWs sometimes were forced to talk when they were tortured, but they tried to tell lies to mislead their captors.
?We were all tortured and we wrote confessions under the pressure of torture,? said Swindle, who was a cellmate with McCain and is active in his campaign. ?John McCain never collaborated with the enemy. He, like every one of us, submitted to severe torture. John McCain did nothing dishonorable. He was heroic.?
At one point, McCain broke down and signed a confession. But Timberg, the biographer, said McCain deliberately used misspellings, grammatical errors and Communist jargon to show he was writing under duress: ?I am a black criminal and I have performed the deeds of an air pirate. I almost died, and the Vietnamese people saved my life . . . ?
Day, a Medal of Honor winner who also is supporting McCain?s campaign, said the flyer is ?the most outrageous f------ lie I?ve ever heard.?
The man behind the flyer is Gerard ?Jerry? W. Kiley, 61, of Garnerville, N.Y., who says he served in Vietnam for about a year. He describes his group as a one-man operation unaffiliated with any political party or campaign. He says he opposes McCain because of the senator?s efforts to normalize relations with the Vietnamese communist government and because, in his view, McCain has helped the U.S. government keep information about POWs classified.
?John McCain has made sure the information concerning the lives of Americans we clearly abandoned after the war remain in government files 40 years later,? he says.
He teamed with political activist Ted Sampley of North Carolina to distribute the fliers to South Carolina media outlets this month. Sampley did not respond to requests for comment.
Sampley also is a longtime McCain opponent. In 2000, he gained attention when he called McCain a ?Manchurian candidate? on his Web site and said that he was an agent of the Vietnamese. In 1993, Sampley was convicted of misdemeanor assault and sentenced to 180 days? probation for attacking a McCain aide, according to a 2004 article in the New York Times.
McCain is not the first politician to draw the men?s ire. In 2004, they formed Vietnam Veterans Against John Kerry.
Kiley has twice interrupted events featuring Vietnamese Prime Minister Phan Van Khai, forcing an American flag in his hand on one occasion and throwing red wine at him on another, according to a Secret Service agent who later arrested Kiley. He admits he threw the wine, but he was later acquitted in federal court of threatening Khai.
Kiley says he bases his most damning charges against McCain ? that McCain gave information about the schedule of U.S. attacks in Vietnam in 1967, the year his plane was shot down and McCain was captured ? on the word of Earl Hopper, a retired Army colonel.
In an interview, Hopper?s wife, Patty, said that Hopper wasn?t able to address the charges over the phone because of poor hearing. She said that Hopper has long been involved in the POW movement and that Earl Hopper?s son, Earl Jr., is missing in action in Vietnam.
She cited as evidence for Hopper?s charges a 1973 article by McCain that ran in U.S. News and World Report and what she said were ?declassified U.S. military documents? she claimed to possess describing McCain?s collaboration. Patty Hopper said she was away from her Arizona home and could not fax those documents.
But the 1973 article does not back up the charges made in the flyer. It provides the same basic account as McCain?s book, corroborated by Timberg?s book, which was based on interviews with many POWs.
Timberg, Day and Swindle noted that McCain, the son of a Navy admiral, was offered an early release from the prison but refused so that he could adhere to the military?s code of conduct.
Timberg said he was perplexed by the allegations.
?Why do they hate him? There can be lots of issues you disagree with him about. But why try to destroy him??
Because of the seriousness of the charge, the utter absence of evidence and the clear intention to harm McCain just days before a critical Republican primary, we find this claim to be Pants on Fire wrong.
.........................................................
From reading this I dont know what to think. I did not realize they used this against McCain in the 2000 election .
So George W used this to discredit McCain ? I know George used the black child thing on McCain when the child was adopted by him and his wife. But there are other rumors about this also.
And now they are good good friends ?
It doesnt seem like anything that any reasonable person would do under being tortured.
I do not know the military rules for captives.
Is it allowed to give information as long as its false ?
And to top this off Obama is not a muslim and never attended a strict scholl for muslims as a young boy. Not sure how all this mis information affects peoples thinking. Hopefully they wont take anything at its word and will investigate to find the right answers.
The flyer contains 1? pages of criticisms of McCain, but only a few support the accusation that he was helping the enemy:
? That he told his captors ?Okay, I?ll give you military information if you will take me to the hospital.?
? That the Hanoi news media reported he had given information about his flight, rescue ships and the order of U.S. attacks.
? That he broke the military code because he answered questions from a Spanish psychiatrist who had apparently been cooperating with the North Vietnamese.
There is some truth to these claims, but collectively they do not prove McCain was involved in ?collaborations with the enemy,? as the flyer alleges.
In his memoir Faith of My Fathers, McCain says that he initially offered the information because he was badly injured and afraid of dying. But, he wrote, ?I didn?t intend to keep my word.?
When he was later interrogated, McCain gave his ship?s name and squadron number and confirmed the target of his failed mission, he wrote. He also gave the names of the Green Bay Packers? offensive line and said they were members of his squadron.
Asked to identify future targets, he mentioned North Vietnamese cities that U.S. planes had already bombed.
George ?Bud? Day and Orson Swindle, fellow POWs, told PolitiFact that POWs sometimes were forced to talk when they were tortured, but they tried to tell lies to mislead their captors.
?We were all tortured and we wrote confessions under the pressure of torture,? said Swindle, who was a cellmate with McCain and is active in his campaign. ?John McCain never collaborated with the enemy. He, like every one of us, submitted to severe torture. John McCain did nothing dishonorable. He was heroic.?
At one point, McCain broke down and signed a confession. But Timberg, the biographer, said McCain deliberately used misspellings, grammatical errors and Communist jargon to show he was writing under duress: ?I am a black criminal and I have performed the deeds of an air pirate. I almost died, and the Vietnamese people saved my life . . . ?
Day, a Medal of Honor winner who also is supporting McCain?s campaign, said the flyer is ?the most outrageous f------ lie I?ve ever heard.?
The man behind the flyer is Gerard ?Jerry? W. Kiley, 61, of Garnerville, N.Y., who says he served in Vietnam for about a year. He describes his group as a one-man operation unaffiliated with any political party or campaign. He says he opposes McCain because of the senator?s efforts to normalize relations with the Vietnamese communist government and because, in his view, McCain has helped the U.S. government keep information about POWs classified.
?John McCain has made sure the information concerning the lives of Americans we clearly abandoned after the war remain in government files 40 years later,? he says.
He teamed with political activist Ted Sampley of North Carolina to distribute the fliers to South Carolina media outlets this month. Sampley did not respond to requests for comment.
Sampley also is a longtime McCain opponent. In 2000, he gained attention when he called McCain a ?Manchurian candidate? on his Web site and said that he was an agent of the Vietnamese. In 1993, Sampley was convicted of misdemeanor assault and sentenced to 180 days? probation for attacking a McCain aide, according to a 2004 article in the New York Times.
McCain is not the first politician to draw the men?s ire. In 2004, they formed Vietnam Veterans Against John Kerry.
Kiley has twice interrupted events featuring Vietnamese Prime Minister Phan Van Khai, forcing an American flag in his hand on one occasion and throwing red wine at him on another, according to a Secret Service agent who later arrested Kiley. He admits he threw the wine, but he was later acquitted in federal court of threatening Khai.
Kiley says he bases his most damning charges against McCain ? that McCain gave information about the schedule of U.S. attacks in Vietnam in 1967, the year his plane was shot down and McCain was captured ? on the word of Earl Hopper, a retired Army colonel.
In an interview, Hopper?s wife, Patty, said that Hopper wasn?t able to address the charges over the phone because of poor hearing. She said that Hopper has long been involved in the POW movement and that Earl Hopper?s son, Earl Jr., is missing in action in Vietnam.
She cited as evidence for Hopper?s charges a 1973 article by McCain that ran in U.S. News and World Report and what she said were ?declassified U.S. military documents? she claimed to possess describing McCain?s collaboration. Patty Hopper said she was away from her Arizona home and could not fax those documents.
But the 1973 article does not back up the charges made in the flyer. It provides the same basic account as McCain?s book, corroborated by Timberg?s book, which was based on interviews with many POWs.
Timberg, Day and Swindle noted that McCain, the son of a Navy admiral, was offered an early release from the prison but refused so that he could adhere to the military?s code of conduct.
Timberg said he was perplexed by the allegations.
?Why do they hate him? There can be lots of issues you disagree with him about. But why try to destroy him??
Because of the seriousness of the charge, the utter absence of evidence and the clear intention to harm McCain just days before a critical Republican primary, we find this claim to be Pants on Fire wrong.
.........................................................
From reading this I dont know what to think. I did not realize they used this against McCain in the 2000 election .
So George W used this to discredit McCain ? I know George used the black child thing on McCain when the child was adopted by him and his wife. But there are other rumors about this also.
And now they are good good friends ?
It doesnt seem like anything that any reasonable person would do under being tortured.
I do not know the military rules for captives.
Is it allowed to give information as long as its false ?
And to top this off Obama is not a muslim and never attended a strict scholl for muslims as a young boy. Not sure how all this mis information affects peoples thinking. Hopefully they wont take anything at its word and will investigate to find the right answers.
matt...
of course this is the big issue for the upcoming election.....
what do you think we should do in iraq ? do you want us to pull out asap...or gradually ?
btw if i remember correctly mccain was saying from day 1 that he believed that there weren't enough troops for the initial invasion.....& he is getting credit (deserved or not) for adding more troops for the recent surge which seems to be working......so i don't know if he should be lumped entirely with bush for this mess...
We waist way to much. And so many times in wrong place. And those that think Bush has did good job with military don't see through the BS. Hell motor pool workers say 30 day delay in parts is common. After 5 years this is dead wrong.
............................................................
I wish I could find the one with you and Bush.
I put a serious search one time to find it and I never could.
You should get Jack to post you and McCain.
It might change some voters minds if they see
RAYMOND likes the guy.
The problem with Mc Cain is same with Bush. They can't see how throwing our money away in Iraq has just about ruin the economy. As for stars war system. They say were getting better. Problem is 30% is way off where we need to go. Yes we can shoot down a missile one at a time 30% of the time. Problem we have no idea if there 6 incoming and 4 are fakes witch to shoot down. And they admit there years away and billions needed to get there. By the time they get there it will be obsolete.
